Liberation

[TheUnborn]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that in LU guides help seekers see in experience that there is no I. That what I think I am are just concepts, a story made by thoughts. The focus is to see what is always here happening without the I thought, that life is always happening and there is no need of the I concept.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for someone to help me break through the belief of the I thought. There is this feeling that there are beliefs and thoughts that I haven't been able to let go or maybe even identify them. These beliefs are preventing the full realization that the I is just a thought. When I meditate I am also experiencing some resistance to let go but the silence is expanding. I would also like some guidance of how to bring that silence into everyday life.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would expect pointers on where am I getting fixated. Which thoughts I am still believing in order to keep the belief that I am a body and the I thought. I know a guide could see more clearly where I am getting stuck because I can see where other people are stuck in their beliefs.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been meditating for 17 years at least once a day for 45 minutes and for some periods of time twice or three times a days. Have also gone to some silence retreats. My meditation practice has deepen throughout the years. I have done also breathing practices and Zhinen Qi Gong for 16 years, which have help calm the mind and keep the body healthy. Done mushrooms once, two years ago and LCD once last year and it helped deepen my meditation practice.
I started doing inquiry last year and it has also helped see more clearly the illusion of the I thought.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[poppyseed]

Hi Unborn
(is that what you prefer to be called?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[TheUnborn]

Hi Rali! How are you?
I am sorry for my late answer, didn't receive an email of your message, but now I know we will have a conversation every day.
What time zone are in? My time zone is Mexico City or US central time.
My name is Deneb and you can call me by my name.

We can start whenever you are ready.

Love

Deneb

[poppyseed]

Hi Deneb
Make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :). I hope this helps!

My time zone is Mexico City or US central time.

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we'll menage ;)

We can start whenever you are ready.

Awesome! First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?
Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ
Also, please answer all questions individually (not in bulk), especially the ones in blue!

Love
Rali

[TheUnborn]

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I think life will continue as it is. I will continue working, and doing all the things that I normally do. Continue paying the bills. Problems will continue to arise and also things that are enjoyable, just like now. My guess is the only difference is that there will not be a sense of someone happening to and this will reduce the suffering that it is sometimes experience.

[TheUnborn]

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

To be honest I do not know what to expect it will happen as a result of realizing there’s no separate self.
From what I’ve heard it is very surprising when it happens. I took some mushrooms two years ago, and for a period of time in the trip there was no separate self and it was very surprising. I had no idea that that is what I was looking for all this years. For many years I thought being self realize would make me special or something hahaha. And now I know that what we are looking for is to get rid of the wrong perception that there is someone in the first place. What we are looking for is always here.

[TheUnborn]

3. What do you want not to happen?

I would not want not to be able to work or provide for my family and my self. I would not like not to be able to function normally and be a burden to my family. But the more I see thing clearly, I understand things will be the way the are going to be and the less I resist the better.

[TheUnborn]

4. What are you hoping for?

I am hoping to keep creating momentum to expand into no separate self so it keeps expanding and dissolving the wrong perceptions of identity with the body and mind. For what I’ve heard this expansion is ongoing and has no end to it, so I hope it continues with as little resistance as possible from my part.

[TheUnborn]

5. What is missing?

When I try to think what is missing my mind goes quiet, it remains in this moment haha. But at the same time in remains looking into the future, like expecting something to happen.

[poppyseed]

Hi Deneb
Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Any problem with letting go of these hopes and expectations? Please let me know, though, if there is a particular one that you can’t

I would not want not to be able to work or provide for my family and my self. I would not like not to be able to function normally and be a burden to my family. But the more I see thing clearly, I understand things will be the way the are going to be and the less I resist the better.

Do you expect that somehow you are going to turn into a zombie or a vegetable? Life expresses itself and "we" are part of this expression. In some way, we get the idea that we are life and we dictate what is happening, we think, we do things and we need protection but when we examine this closely, we see it for what it is - just a mirage, an illusion. There is no doer and thinker. Things are just happening. Let’s examine this carefully. Fear serves to protect the imaginary self from harm. In this case it protects “you” from changing and losing your “humanity”, ability to work, etc. But let’s be clear here… why would the absence of something that has NEVER existed cause a change in existing stuff?
You probably believed in Santa when you were little. There was magic and joy, and love, and giving, and caring. When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit/celebration of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa?
Please sit and examine this carefully. Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary. Please let me know what you find.

Also, please answer all questions individually (not in bulk), especially the ones in blue!

I meant answer all the questions - not one general answer to all questions. Please write your whole reply - questions (quotes) and answers - and then press submit. If you press the "Preview" button it will show you how your answer will appear in the forum. Please let me know if you need more help with this.
Love
Rali

[TheUnborn]

Hi Rali!

I took a little more time to really sit on the questions.

Any problem with letting go of these hopes and expectations?

So far I don’t think there is a problem of letting go of the hopes and expectations I have created along the path. What I’ve notice is that it takes some time for the hopes and expectations to dissolve. In my case like you said:

I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception!

, there has not been any fireworks or anything like that (only that time in the mushroom trip haha), the changes in perception have been very subtle.

Do you expect that somehow you are going to turn into a zombie or a vegetable?

haha not any more, for sometime I thought enlightenment would be something like sitting in meditation all day or something like that but in the past year or so that idea has also gone. I can feel that the fear of not functioning in the world comes more from the fear of losing the identity that I has created. I can feel now that is more visceral in that way.

But let’s be clear here… why would the absence of something that has NEVER existed cause a change in existing stuff?

yes, its very true, since the I thought is only an illusion then it could never change what is already here. I can taste this but I still experience the I thought most of the time. The good thing is that I am able to catch it when its happening more and more and this helps me point the attention to the present moment, to the senses.

Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary.

I’ll keep sitting with the fear and allow it to be there to see what is really protecting and what it’s true nature is, and if it is necessary. So far this has not been clarify yet.

Thank you for your questions and incites!

Love

Deneb

[poppyseed]

Hi Deneb
Really good!

I’ll keep sitting with the fear and allow it to be there to see what is really protecting and what it’s true nature is, and if it is necessary. So far this has not been clarify yet.

Is it possible that there is nothing there to be protected? Do you need more time with this or are you ready to move on?
If are ready…
What comes up when is read that there is no self never has been and never will be? If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Love
Rali

[TheUnborn]

Hi Rali!
I hope you had a great weekend.
I been really busy with a project that I am doing. What would be the best way to not get caught in the belief that I am the one doing the project? When I work that happens a lot.

Is it possible that there is nothing there to be protected? Do you need more time with this or are you ready to move on?

Yes I can feel that there is nothing to be protected when I sit quiet and see the thought that is creating the fear. I think we can move on.

What comes up when is read that there is no self never has been and never will be?

Sometimes when I read that there is no self never has been and never will be I feel a great sense of relief. But some times I read it and the understanding is more intellectual than experience the truth of the statement.

If you look for the I, what is there?

When I look for the I there is silence, there is nothing to find so the mind becomes still, one pointed. And what is happening becomes more clear.

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

My mind tries to look for the doer, thinker, experiencer etc. And it becomes still, quiet. Is like a dance between looking for the thinker… and just being here now.

Where exactly did you look?

I looked here in the immediate experience and see that the thinker, doer etc is a thought coming and going. I can see is very quick and persistent but it has no substance.

What exactly did you find?

That there is only this happening including the thought of the doer, the problem is that it gets mingle with the experience and it seems that there is me doing all this actions.

Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

what appears is a little contraction in the back of my neck and head, when I meditate is a very intense contraction.
There is also a feeling of peace or something like that in the chest. The sensation of the body becomes clearer and sounds and colors become a little clearer or brighter.

Thank you for all your pointers!

Love

Deneb

[poppyseed]

Hi Deneb

Yes I can feel that there is nothing to be protected when I sit quiet and see the thought that is creating the fear. I think we can move on.

Great!
Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what color they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what color they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's color, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, color(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Color (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
Love
Rali

[TheUnborn]

Hi Rali! Hope you are doing great!

f I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what color they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what color they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

Yes only by looking I could be 100% sure what color they actually are.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

I am clear about Direct Experience.

However, is 'an apple' actually known?

Apple is only a concept so it is actually never known is never here. What is is here is color, smell, taste, thought apple.

(Or is it just a label?)

Apple is just a concept, a label.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

There is only color and thought apple.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Apple can never be found in actual experience. Only the thought apple and smell, taste, color, sensation when “apple”.

Love

Deneb