Looking for nothingness

[PeterO]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
This have been seen but it is not stable. There is no "I" but there still is a sense of an "I". There is an understanding that there is no me, it is fictional. Still some suffering and fear occurs even though it is much less than it used to be. So identification happens at some times and some times it is gone.

What are you looking for at LU?
Contact with others who go trough the same process. A guide who can support me in dropping the story. Right now I am using the app every day. I believe there is power in community so i guess I am looking for a community in some way.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I try to not have expectations but to be with what is. If someone can point me in the right direction when I am lost, then that is great :)
Help to stop seeking. Support with the next steps if there are any next steps.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
More then 20 years of seeking, lot's of "what is aware" inquiry, lately. Also had around 20 sessions with Ilona and are seeing trough the self many times in sessions with her.
I tried to register here about two years ago and never got any contact so I am trying again.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Luchana]

Hi Peter,

and welcome to the forum. My name is Luchana and I would love to walk with you here If you are ok?
We can have a chat and see where it takes you.

So identification happens at some times and some times it is gone.

Can you look in your direct experience if there is an expectation that seeing that there is no inherent autonomous self should be 24/7?

If yes - that's is not realistic. We all have conditioning, programs, trauma and emotionally charged thoughts which are constantly pulling us back to identification. Which doesn't mean that there is a someone identified, this is how illusion works so to speak.
So more looking is needed, more deepening into these mechanism, triggers, and programs, And not looking only if there is a self in the experience. Unfortunately it is not enough to just see once and for all... The truth, reality of there being no one driving the bus is always here - when it is looked at. It is reliable. Not in memory, but here now.

so look at this again:

Where is the person, the I that is identified?
Where is the identified one? Where exactly?

I tried to register here about two years ago and never got any contact so I am trying again.

Oh, sorry to hear that. Sometimes things like that can happen, but now you are here :-)


Much love,
Luchana

[PeterO]

Hi Luchana,
Thank you for your answers!

Can you look in your direct experience if there is an expectation that seeing that there is no inherent autonomous self should be 24/7?

Yes, it looks like there is an expectation. And now when I accept that, silence arise and I am laughing :D

Where is the person, the I that is identified?
Where is the identified one? Where exactly?

I can not find a person. There is a body, there are thoughts. There is a habit of thinking as if there is a person but when I look there is only thoughts that believe they are a person. There is a sense of a focus point, a point of attention but it can be moved and anywhere I move it, it is just a point of attention, no person there.

About my expectations:
There is a longing for the silence to be more permanent so I guess the longing create some form of suffering? I don't feel that I suffer nowadays but I can feel that I am looking for something. When my mind becomes silent it is sometimes clear that there is nothing to do.
How do I balance the seeking energy with becoming lazy and fall back in to old habits with excessive thinking?

Thank you :)
Peter

[Luchana]

Hi Peter,

Yes, it looks like there is an expectation. And now when I accept that, silence arise and I am laughing :D

yea, this is the way we look at expectations..just seeing that there are expretations and it can't be known if they are realistic. In most cases - they are not :)

I can not find a person. There is a body, there are thoughts. There is a habit of thinking as if there is a person but when I look there is only thoughts that believe they are a person. There is a sense of a focus point, a point of attention but it can be moved and anywhere I move it, it is just a point of attention, no person there.

Good.
Focus on focus, attention itself.

Who or what does it?
Is there something which is focusing the attention?
A center, a point?
Does a thought focus the attention?
Does a self focus the attention?

There is a longing for the silence to be more permanent so I guess the longing create some form of suffering? I don't feel that I suffer nowadays but I can feel that I am looking for something. When my mind becomes silent it is sometimes clear that there is nothing to do.
How do I balance the seeking energy with becoming lazy and fall back in to old habits with excessive thinking?

yea.. this is so natural, longing for silence and peace, so sweet is this longing.

Can you notice what's on the way of that in this very moment?

As for the balance - the pull back to the old habits (excessive thinking is one of those) can be very strong.
- from what is being experienced here I can share that commitment, further looking and gathering with like minded ones may help...

We are having meetings in zoom almost each week and people find those very supporting..
You are most welcome to join. Send me your e-mail and I will provide details.

Much love,
Luchana





A

[Luchana]

Hi Peter,

How is the looking going on?
Are yoi still with me?

Sending love,
Luchana

[PeterO]

Hi Peter,

How is the looking going on?
Are yoi still with me?

Hi,
Yes i am still with you but suddenly it was a lot of resistance to answer the questions. It is like I feel that this will be the end of me. And there is still resistans in that even though I have seen that it is total freedom. Maybe fear of the unknown. So I created a lot of things that had to be done before I could answer...

Focus on focus, attention itself.

Who or what does it?
Is there something which is focusing the attention?
A center, a point?
Does a thought focus the attention?
Does a self focus the attention?

Focus is just happening. There is no "focuser", no one that is doing it.
This answer is a combination of experiencing and memories of experiences. It is hard to go there, it is like I have to cry and laugh at the same time. It is empty. And still my mind does not want to let go.

Can you notice what's on the way of that in this very moment?

The story of me, the fear of going in to the totally unknown. No referens points. Surrender to what if there is nothing there?
How can I have so much fear of total freedom? It is like I am stuck in a pattern and it feels like dying (maybe not that dramatic but can not find any other words) to let go of the pattern.

Cheers
Peter

[Luchana]

Hi Peter.

Yes i am still with you but suddenly it was a lot of resistance to answer the questions. It is like I feel that this will be the end of me. And there is still resistans in that even though I have seen that it is total freedom. Maybe fear of the unknown. So I created a lot of things that had to be done before I could answer...

The story of me, the fear of going in to the totally unknown. No referens points. Surrender to what if there is nothing there?
How can I have so much fear of total freedom? It is like I am stuck in a pattern and it feels like dying (maybe not that dramatic but can not find any other words) to let go of the pattern.

Thanks for sharing that with me, Resistance is so common, it has many different forms - it can appear as boredom, distraction, something more important to do, sleepiness, even physical issues...in its core it is a subtle form of fear which is showing up In your last comment. It is a protective mechanism you are not responsible for experiencing that, not at all.
It is a sensation, it is trying to protect something from being found out.

Let's look at it closer:
Can you ask this sensation of resistance/fear:
"What are you protecting me from exactly?
What may happen If I don't resist?"

And notice what kind of images and thoughts start to come.
All they justifying their right to resist. Watch them come and go and do not engage with any of them.


Curiously look BEHIND the fear - what is there?

Much love,
Luchana

[PeterO]

Hi Luchana,

Let's look at it closer:
Can you ask this sensation of resistance/fear:
"What are you protecting me from exactly?
What may happen If I don't resist?"

And notice what kind of images and thoughts start to come.
All they justifying their right to resist. Watch them come and go and do not engage with any of them.

The protection is from "not knowing", being in the unknown. Nothing to hold on to. But right now it is just very nice, pretty silent :)
Also maybe a fear of not getting anything done. Even though there is a knowing that nothing needs to be done.
If I don't resist it is just fantastic, I feel energy moving and my neck and head move slowly as some muscles relaxes more. Some pain is releasing.

Some thoughts are coming: "Can I stay here?"
I notice "someone who tries to be serious" and I just laugh. I sigh and it is all ok. I think. There is some doubt and at the same time there is some laughter about the doubt.

I can see the habit to analyze and think. It is so nice when there is less thoughts. Or? Yes it is.

Curiously look BEHIND the fear - what is there?

I can't find the fear right now.

[Luchana]

Hi Peter,

The protection is from "not knowing", being in the unknown. Nothing to hold on to. But right now it is just very nice, pretty silent :)
Also maybe a fear of not getting anything done. Even though there is a knowing that nothing needs to be done.
If I don't resist it is just fantastic, I feel energy moving and my neck and head move slowly as some muscles relaxes more. Some pain is releasing.

Some thoughts are coming: "Can I stay here?"
I notice "someone who tries to be serious" and I just laugh. I sigh and it is all ok. I think. There is some doubt and at the same time there is some laughter about the doubt.

I can see the habit to analyze and think. It is so nice when there is less thoughts. Or? Yes it is.

YES! Nothing scary if there is no engagement with thoughts.
Just silence. Beautiful.

And I'm curious where is this laughter coming from? :-)
Can a centre be pointed?
Who or what is it that is laughing?

I can't find the fear right now.

yea, it usually resolves when we look directly.

Much love and see you later today.

I guess you receive the link for the zoom?

Luchana

[PeterO]

Hi Luchana,

YES! Nothing scary if there is no engagement with thoughts.
Just silence. Beautiful.

And I'm curious where is this laughter coming from? :-)
Can a centre be pointed?
Who or what is it that is laughing?

The laughter just bubbles up, it is just happening.
I can not find any center.
There are still thoughts of a me that is laughing. It's like an old record that got stuck. But it is just thoughts. Laughing happens to no one because it is impersonal.
As I say this there is also an awareness that this is a memory. Right now it is like both exists, the old habit of being a person and the new sensation that everything is impersonal. But the impersonal is only there, let's say 5-10% of the time. But I know that statement is false but it is how it feels.

Cheers
Peter

[Luchana]

Hi Peter,

The laughter just bubbles up, it is just happening.
I can not find any center.

Beautiful! ..isn't it like that with all spectrum of emotions?
Try finding a centre with sadness for example when it is present at experience.

As I say this there is also an awareness that this is a memory. Right now it is like both exists, the old habit of being a person and the new sensation that everything is impersonal. But the impersonal is only there, let's say 5-10% of the time. But I know that statement is false but it is how it feels.

Exactly. And how memory shows up here now?
As a image, a sensation or as a content of a thought?

The truth, reality, what is (it doesn't matter how we call it) is already here now when it is looked at. It is reliably.

And by reliably I don't mean some special state/experience. Rather what I mean that the absence of an autonomous entity, with will and control can be seen reliably every single time when looking happens. Not 24/7, but reliably when looking.

So can you look at this now:

Where is the person, the I that is supposedly separate?

Where is the separate one? Where exactly?


Sending love,
Luchana

[PeterO]

Hi Luchana,

Beautiful! ..isn't it like that with all spectrum of emotions?
Try finding a centre with sadness for example when it is present at experience.

Yes, there is no centre... There can be a feeling of a centre or a sensation but when I feel it deeply it moves and sometimes dissolve.

Exactly. And how memory shows up here now?
As a image, a sensation or as a content of a thought?

Hmm, not sure. It's like a sensation or a knowing. Not sure how to describe it. Contentment for no reason.

The truth, reality, what is (it doesn't matter how we call it) is already here now when it is looked at. It is reliably.

And by reliably I don't mean some special state/experience. Rather what I mean that the absence of an autonomous entity, with will and control can be seen reliably every single time when looking happens. Not 24/7, but reliably when looking.

So can you look at this now:

Where is the person, the I that is supposedly separate?

Where is the separate one? Where exactly?

It is like searching with my focus like a flashlight inside of me but finding nothing. The focus just goes around in the body but there is no "I" there.

Cheers
Peter

[Luchana]

Hi Peter,

Hmm, not sure. It's like a sensation or a knowing. Not sure how to describe it. Contentment for no reason.

yes, it can be e contentment if the experience was pleasant, and the opposite also if it is not..
Let's look closer:

What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?

It is like searching with my focus like a flashlight inside of me but finding nothing. The focus just goes around in the body but there is no "I" there.

nice :-)
Is it possible that there is an I and you are not able to find it?
Or there is just no I, self?

What make things happen?
How does it work?

Much love,
Luchana

[PeterO]

Hi Luchana,

Sorry for my late reply. There is resistans, I'm not sure why. It's like I always find other things to do before answer this. I think the ego wants to survive...

What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?

For me memory is images sometimes with attached emotions and dialogue in the head.
It looks like memory appears when the mind wants something to lean against, to draw information form. Maybe for safety. To have something to hold on to.

Is it possible that there is an I and you are not able to find it?
Or there is just no I, self?

What make things happen?
How does it work?

I don't think it is possible that there is any kind of "I" here. It is just thoughts and no thinker. Wow. I'm expanding a lot now :D And have a big smile. It is so strange...
I'm pretty sure there is no self and it feels strange to write "I". It is just a misunderstanding.
Things just happen according ot our programing, conditioning.
I have no idea how it works, it just happens. Like a flower growing, how does it know how to grow? According to it's programming.

The funny or maybe not so funny thing is that there is still identification a lot of the time. It is like there is a part of "me" who does not want ot let go. It is safe to go about everything in the old ways. And then again so much freedom with no "I" :D

Cheers
Peter

[Luchana]

Hi Peter.

Sorry for my late reply. There is resistans, I'm not sure why. It's like I always find other things to do before answer this. I think the ego wants to survive...

:-)
What is the direct experience of "ego"?
What is "ego" when it is looked at here now?

For me memory is images sometimes with attached emotions and dialogue in the head.
It looks like memory appears when the mind wants something to lean against, to draw information form. Maybe for safety. To have something to hold on to.

And how memory is experience here now?
As something real which can be touched, smelled, seen?
Or as a content of thought?

I'm pretty sure there is no self and it feels strange to write "I". It is just a misunderstanding.
Things just happen according ot our programing, conditioning.
I have no idea how it works, it just happens. Like a flower growing, how does it know how to grow? According to it's programming.

Lovely.
Is there someone or something responsible for the programming?
A controller of the programming/conditioning?

The funny or maybe not so funny thing is that there is still identification a lot of the time. It is like there is a part of "me" who does not want ot let go. It is safe to go about everything in the old ways. And then again so much freedom with no "I" :D

Is there an expectation that identification will stop happening/appearing once the illusion is seen trough?
Why? This is why it is called illusion :-)


Sending love,
Luchana