CW

[CherylVT]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? I have had glimpses of not-self.
One on the touch channel--the hand touches the face; the face touches the hand. There is no self in between.
One in the visual channel--it's not me looking through these eyes.
Occasionally, when i am walking (or driving), there's no me walking. Walking is doing the walking.

What are you looking for at LU?
Breaking my sense of agency. I love "do-ing."
A more continuous sense of Presence (as it is called).
I wrote a book called Surrendering to Life after a lumpectomy in 2015. Surrendering to Life led to a lot of ease and no noticeable dukkha (suffering) during my treatment for breast cancer. And i still have a lot of opinions :)
Clearing out the underbrush of selfing.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Pinpointed questions that make me squirm.
A guide who can see through my blind spots.
A feeling of relief that this little i is doing its best to be shaken awake.
A feeling of coming home for my inner 5-year-old girl who knew that life was a dream.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I teach Insight Meditation in Vermont.
I began meditating, using Psychosynthesis, 50 years ago, when i fell into a deep, dark pit.
In 1977, i attended my first retreat at Insight Meditation Society, and that was a good fit.
I've attended 50 or so seminars at the Barre Center for Buddhist Studies.
In 2019, i took the Finders Course. The alumni community, PerfectlyOkay, is very supportive.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[poppyseed]

Hi Cheryl
(is that what you prefer to be called?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[CherylVT]

Good to meet you Rali.

Yes, my name is Cheryl so you can call me that😊

I’m in Vermont, which is the Eastern time zone of the US.

This body just turned 75, so I’m ready to make a daily commitment. After all, life is short—even when it’s long.

With appreciation
Cheryl

[poppyseed]

Hi Cheryl

I’m in Vermont, which is the Eastern time zone of the US.

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we'll menage ;)

This body just turned 75, so I’m ready to make a daily commitment. After all, life is short—even when it’s long.

Awesome! First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[CherylVT]

[What's the etiquette here? Do i add blue to your questions and red to my answers?]


1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I imagine a fairly consistent awareness of not being this body (which I theoretically know), of not believing my every thought (I tend toward thinking), of feeling emotions arise without the need to immediately act on them.
An ease with watching/feeling Life come and go.
A deep realization of “It’s not personal.”

(Just answering these questions makes me feel lighter.)

A lightness of being, a lighter touch.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

When does fear fall away? (I don’t need an answer to that question, though I am curious. 😊)

I already have increased spontaneity (thanks to the Finders Course I took 4 years ago). Increased synchronicity is a lot of fun, though I don’t put any stock in it. Right now, it comes and goes.
I already have a sense of Fundamental Well Being, for which I am extremely grateful. Cheerfulness has been my baseline for the past several years.
In other words, life is pretty darn good already.


3. What do you want not to happen?

Does this mean
Which part of the self do I not want to give up?

For 6 years, at month-long jhana meditation retreats with Ayya Khema on videotape, I visualized throwing my entire life away—home and neighborhood where I’ve lived for 43 years, my sweetie, my siblings, everything that I hold dear.

I hear reports of people whose emotional life flattens, who say they no longer feel love for their children. (I do not have children.) People who are content to do nothing. Retreat to the cave or to their Peace Palace. That’s okay. I’ll take the equanimity.
Although I would like to continue to be of service to humanity.

4. What are you hoping for?

What I really want is a seal of approval that I’ve seen through self-view. (Is this the ego speaking?)
Because I am steeped in Buddhist teachings, I place great value on breaking the fetters--#1 being self-view.

Once upon a time, I would have said “less dukkha, less suffering,” but I have that. (Or I don’t have that! 😊)

The self is still hiding out, here and there. I’d like to become more aware of the self’s disguises, the self’s hideouts.

I trust the guide to point out or point toward the shadows I do not see.


5. What is missing?

It’s more like “what is not missing?” What is not missing is the self!

[poppyseed]

Hi Cheryl
Thank you for your sincerity!

[What's the etiquette here? Do i add blue to your questions and red to my answers?]

There isn’t a special etiquette about colour, I just write the pointing questions that I want answered in blue to distinguish them from the rest of the text. You don’t have to use any other colour, but please watch the video on quoting (link in my first message) as this will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.

Now back to expectations…
It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary.

For 6 years, at month-long jhana meditation retreats with Ayya Khema on videotape, I visualized throwing my entire life away—home and neighborhood where I’ve lived for 43 years, my sweetie, my siblings, everything that I hold dear.

I hear reports of people whose emotional life flattens, who say they no longer feel love for their children. (I do not have children.) People who are content to do nothing. Retreat to the cave or to their Peace Palace. That’s okay. I’ll take the equanimity.
Although I would like to continue to be of service to humanity...
...When does fear fall away? (I don’t need an answer to that question, though I am curious. 😊)

Do you expect that somehow you are going to turn into a zombie or a vegetable? Life expresses itself and "we" are part of this expression. In some way, we get the idea that we are life and we dictate what is happening, we think, we do things and we need protection but when we examine this closely, we see it for what it is - just a mirage, an illusion. There is no doer and thinker. Things are just happening.

Fear serves to protect the imaginary self from harm. In this case it protects “you” from changing and losing your ”humanity”. But let’s be clear here… why would the absence of something that has NEVER existed cause a change in existing stuff? You probably believed in Santa when you were little. There was magic and joy, and love, and giving, and caring. When you realised that Santa is not real (I hope you did :) ), did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa?
Please sit and examine this carefully. Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary. Please let me know what you find.
Love
Rali

[CherylVT]

Dear Rali,

expectations are a hindrance.

Ah, yes.
In the list of What LU is not…, the not (knot?) that struck me is

• This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.

So, I suppose, that is where I am most likely to be stuck.

On the other hand, I was happy to read

The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end.

I feel very close to the end of seeking. If I die today, I’m content. On the other hand, I do attend various meet-ups, and I’m inspired by various teachers, and, if it happens, I would like to inch along. That’s why I’m here at LU.

Do you expect that somehow you are going to turn into a zombie or a vegetable?

No, I don’t. Bhikkhu Analayo (who lives at the nearby Barre Center for Buddhist Studies) says, “I’m not a sack of potatoes.”
I have heard one teacher say that, early on, she was perfectly content to sit on the sofa and listen to the clock tick.

There is no doer and thinker. Things are just happening.

Just making the commitment, setting my intention to work with you on LU has already given me “results.” Yesterday, I had several little episodes of the assumed-self drifting off for a few minutes.
“What is driving?” The habit of driving the car is driving.
“What is sitting here in the waiting room, waiting for an hour and a half?” Sitting. Sitting and not waiting. Just sitting.
My good Dharma friend and many books extol the virtue of setting intentions. I’ve never found that they particularly work in my meditation practice. But yesterday, that intention worked its magic.

Fear serves to protect the imaginary self from harm. In this case it protects “you” from changing and losing your ”humanity”.

For the past few years, my morning and nightly “prayer” has included the phrase. “May I be free from fear” or “May I be freed from fear.” Then I name my fears.

“May I be free from the fear of making a phone call.”
I do not like to call people. (I’m from a generation that grew up with expensive long-distance (5+ miles) phone calls.)
More recently, I’ve wondered if it’s more that I’m ashamed to call people. I don’t want to interrupt them. Maybe they’re busy. Maybe they don’t want to hear from me. Maybe I’m asking a dumb question. Maybe they’re going to say “No.”
In the past few months, I am very much better at picking up the phone to call the plumber, an electrician, the doctor, etc. Last night, I called a kayaking friend to ask a kayak question. Congratulations to me!

“May I be free from paranoia.” I have a very slight tendency to paranoia, usually in the dark. Is someone or something going to grab me or sneak up behind me?
I assume this is a very old fear from childhood that I do not remember the particulars of.
Last night, outdoors, I realized I haven’t had a little paranoia attack for several months.

The next line of my little prayer is
“May I be free from shame.”
Shame is an invisible member of my father’s family, handed down from generation to generation.

I am not afraid of the feeling of fear. I pinpoint the clutch around the stomach, the contraction around the heart, and sink into it until it shifts. I try to keep any story at bay, try to keep the mind from wandering away from the sensation. At the same time, I am open to a single word, phrase, or image that might help me unpack the fear.
For instance, I dread visiting my step-daughter, but go for the sake of my sweetie, her father. Sinking into the dread a few years ago, I received the word “bully.” Ahh, so that’s what I’m afraid of. She bullies me. But, ever since her daughter went to college, the quick little darts have ceased. Whew!

So these are my garden-variety fears, but you are asking something deeper.

Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary.

Since this letter is already quite long, I’d like to sit with this today before i respond.

Thank you, Rali,
Cheryl

[poppyseed]

Hi Cheryl

This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
So, I suppose, that is where I am most likely to be stuck.

We’ll get there, but ultimately there is nothing to get rid of ;)

For the past few years, my morning and nightly “prayer” has included the phrase. “May I be free from fear” or “May I be freed from fear.” Then I name my fears.

Fear comes in all shapes and colours. Emotions/feelings are basically a sensation with a label/thought. In the end, different fears are the same sensation with a different thought. So, do you see the common factor here?
My question was more aiming towards a fear that comes about the inquiry so we resolve it as an obstacle for the inquiry.

My good Dharma friend and many books extol the virtue of setting intentions. I’ve never found that they particularly work in my meditation practice. But yesterday, that intention worked its magic.

I thought we agreed to leave all spiritual teachings, philosophies and science behind. Please stick only to the questions/pointers and your DE for the duration of this inquiry. I will get to describing what it involves a bit more once we sort out the obstacles. You can keep your meditation practice if you have one.

Looking forward to your answer to my questions related to the fear of this inquiry.
Love
Rali

[CherylVT]

Dear Rali,

a fear that comes about the inquiry so we resolve it as an obstacle for the inquiry.

Here’s what I have so far:

I love history. (I’ve written a history book.) I fear losing my history.
And closely related, since I’m a writer, and I write a lot of memoir, I fear losing interest in my personal story.
And closely related to that are my various immortality projects, which mostly take the form of self-publishing (self-aggrandizing 😊) little chapbooks every couple of years.

My writing group instructor for 25 years was Jan Frazier (When Fear Falls Away) who had a sudden and deep awakening 20 years ago. Recently, she self-published a memoir about her beloved father—a project she was working on before fear fell away and which she, lo these many years, came back to. She had just a handful of copies printed, so it cannot be found, even by Google.

I also love meaning and symbolism. I often write in metaphor. (My car’s license plate is META4.) I vaguely understand that meaning is meaningless, but I really enjoy playing in that field. To lose interest in meaning feels like a letdown.

[poppyseed]

Hi Cheryl
If you see a question in blue please answer it.

And closely related, since I’m a writer, and I write a lot of memoir, I fear losing interest in my personal story.

Fear serves to protect the imaginary self from harm. In this case it protects “you” from changing and losing your “humanity”, “your” memories, “your SELF”-expression. But were they ever yours to begin with? Life expresses itself - that's it! "We" are part of this expression. In some way, we get the idea that we are life and we do things such as writing, loving, caring etc. But let’s be clear here… why would the absence of something that has NEVER existed cause a change in existing stuff?

I vaguely understand that meaning is meaningless, but I really enjoy playing in that field. To lose interest in meaning feels like a letdown.

Meaning isn’t meaningless but empty. There is a huge difference here. You have some Buddhist background so I’m sure you’ve heard “form is emptiness, emptiness is form”. 'Emptiness' is a pointer to mark a distinction between the way things appear to be and the way they actually are – the illusion.
Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary. Please let me know what you find.
Please stick to the questions!
Love
Rali

[CherylVT]

Dear Rali,

Thanks for pointing me back to the questions at hand.

losing your “humanity”, “your” memories, “your SELF”-expression. But were they ever yours to begin with?

Of course not. Life (as I call it) lives through this vehicle.
Memories are ghosts—vague phantoms of seeing and hearing that trigger a vague emotion. Those memories (and the people in my photos) are dead and gone.
This self-expression of writing happens, has been happening since an 8-year-old named Cheryl wrote stories with her grandmother.
The writing comes; the writing goes.

why would the absence of something that has NEVER existed cause a change in existing stuff?

This feels like a mind-teaser. How could the no-thing cause a change? Ha!
Existence plays on. Unfathomable causes and conditions roll out.

Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary. Please let me know what you find.

As for the fear, I can’t find it, though I do expect it.
I was a hospice volunteer for 29 years. I contemplated the 5 Daily Reflections (aging, illness, death, impermanence, karma) every day in meditation for 5 years. My friends think I talk about death way too often.
In June, 2018, we were taking a little cruise among the islands of Croatia. After a very hot walk in a national park, back at the boat, at lunch, I felt my hands and feet were about to explode from heat. I excused myself to the table, went to our cabin and laid down on the bed. “If my sweetie, Bill, finds me dead, so be it,” I thought.
Later I wondered if I had had “radiation recall”—3 years after radiation treatments for breast cancer. Don’t know. Doesn’t matter.

With gratitude,
Cheryl

[poppyseed]

Hi Cheryl

This feels like a mind-teaser. How could the no-thing cause a change? Ha!
Existence plays on. Unfathomable causes and conditions roll out.

Good! It is all an illusion. It has never done anything.

As for the fear, I can’t find it, though I do expect it.

Ok! We’ll deal with it when it appears if it does :)
So let’s go ahead then…
Now what comes up when is read that there is no self never has been and never will be? If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?
Love
Rali

[CherylVT]

Dear Rali,

Now what comes up when is read that there is no self never has been and never will be?

I understand this intellectually. I also have a few moments during most days when it feels like the self drifts off—a lovely, relaxed, spacious feeling arises. Since the self has never existed, perhaps it’s more accurate to say the clouds part, and, lo and behold, there’s a clear blue sky.

If you look for the I, what is there?

I say “I, I, I” out loud, trying to feel where the I is located in the body. Even though I expect a homunculus sitting behind my eyes, driving the machinery, I don’t find it there. I don’t find the I in “my” body.
When I say “me, me, me” out loud, I feel the resonance of the mmmm in the upper chest, just below the neck. Maybe that’s where the “me” lives? Or maybe it’s in the solar plexus, I’m not sure.
I do notice moments when the I shows up as a mind-made self. When I’ve said something smart or cute or humorous, I rerun it several times in my mind. I’m so proud of “my” I for being so smart. That’s probably my favorite I.

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

Yes, I experience that momentarily almost every day.

The first chapter of my book Breast Cancer Meets Mindfulness: Surrendering to Life is about being on a conveyor belt, like when we go to the airport. The minute we park our car (or are dropped off) we are on a figurative or literal conveyor belt until we put the key to the rental car in the ignition at our destination. Some other system (the airport) is making our decisions for us. Even if we think we are acting under our own free will, we aren’t.
Breast cancer is another type of “conveyor belt,” from the second I walk in the hospital doors and receive a diagnosis through the moment of my last radiation treatment. Someone else is in charge of my schedule, etc.

Who is driving? The habit of driving is driving.
Who is walking? The habit of walking is walking.
Who is thinking? Obviously, not me—though I believe every thought.
Who’s deciding? The path of least resistance.
Who’s experiencing? “In the seen, only the seen” etc.
Who’s the witness? I don’t know.

Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

My image of the moment is that the I, the self is like a paper doll wearing her paper dress. Sometimes, the folded tabs of the dress come loose; the dress slips off. Then the simile fails because there’s no doll.

Just Life living life.

Thanks Rali,
Cheryl

[poppyseed]

Hi Cheryl
Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:

1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what color they are.

2. You can have a look at your socks and see what color they ACTUALLY are!

You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's color, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, color(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Color (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


Love
Rali

[CherylVT]

Dear Rafi,

only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

Yes!

Yes, I understand that Direct Experience comes through the 5 senses plus thought.

is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?)

No, an apple is not actually known.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Only color and thought-about exist.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

An “apple” cannot be found in actual experience.
Apple is a concept.

Thanks Rafi,
Cheryl