Living Truth

[Alless]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Seeing there is no real, inherent self to me means seeing the "me" that seems to be here for what it is. It means being able to live without being hypnotized by the incessant thought stream that seems to proliferate human existence. It means being able to be fully alive and experience life without the label-er and interpreter

What are you looking for at LU?
To help dismantle the separate self that thinks it exists. To help see what is capturing my attention and coloring pure experiencing. Help me see how this "I" story comes about and how I (at this point) unconsciously attach myself this story. Looking for someone to help keep me radically honest

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Honest and direct pointing of what is seen to be actually going on here and helping me recognize what I am holding onto unconsciously which is pulling me out of the present moment or off what to me seems to be the "razors edge" so to speak.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Mainly many books and videos by teachers who seem to be authentic. Emotion and shadow work with like minded people. Occasional contact with teachers until I no longer felt a potency in the connection.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Lubo]

Hi Alles,

Welcome to the forum.

My name is Lubo and I can walk with in this journey, if you are ok?

Do you have any questions?

I have one:

To help dismantle the separate self that thinks it exists.

What if all mental stuff are just mental stuff?

Love
Lubo

[Alless]

Hi Lubo,

Great to hear from you. And thank you so much for being here to help.

Do you have any questions?

Not at this point. FWIW I am on the east coast of Australia.

You ask

What if all mental stuff are just mental stuff?

My immediate response is "Of course, mental stuff is mental stuff !" However even though that is the response the mental stuff seems to have such a hold and is mesmerizing in so many ways - that's the mystery. I'm sitting pondering this response "Of course, mental stuff is mental stuff !" and feeling that there is something that I claim to know but really don't know !!

Love

Alan

[Lubo]

Hi Alan,
Nice to meet you :)

Not at this point. FWIW I am on the east coast of Australia.

Wow this sounds so excited for me. I am in Sofia, Bulgaria.

"Of course, mental stuff is mental stuff !" and feeling that there is something that I claim to know but really don't know !!

Wonderful, you noticed that there is something here. Let's look closer.
Mental stuff are mental stuff, colours are colours, forms are forms - notice is there experience that there is something wrong with you?

Love & Light
Lubo

[Alless]

And Sofia, Bulgaria is a new frontier for me Lubo !!

I am sitting with mental stuff, colours and forms. And pondering your question

Mental stuff are mental stuff, colours are colours, forms are forms - notice is there experience that there is something wrong with you?

I can't say I've found experience of something wrong just yet but as I'm looking at forms and colours, I'm seeing something that I haven’t noticed before. I was washing a cup and I noticed the cup was actually right "here" AND "out there" at the same time. I don’t know whether this is for real but it sure seems that way. I keep looking and it certainly appears that everything is experienced "here" and somehow it appears to be "out there" at the same time.

Surely for us to truly experience something we have to be immersed in it and it in us. But to make sense of it in this world of form is it the mind which makes it seem "out there"?

This seems a little wild. Is this making sense to you Lubo? Please sort me out on this !!!

In love

Alan

[Lubo]

Hi Alan,

I'm seeing something that I haven’t noticed before. I was washing a cup and I noticed the cup was actually right "here" AND "out there" at the same time. I don’t know whether this is for real but it sure seems that way. I keep looking and it certainly appears that everything is experienced "here" and somehow it appears to be "out there" at the same time.

Wow, wonderful. Yes this is the way :)
Without thoughts explaining here and there is there "out there" at Direct Experience? Out from what?

Notice thoughts and believes that there is I/me/center which is in the body, without this childish believe notice
can a center be found?
What is here without this imagined center?

Love
Lubo

[Alless]

Morning Lubo

I sent the last message wondering what you might say because even though what I said seemed so true it also seemed unbelievable.

Then you wrote

Wow, wonderful. Yes this is the way :)

So that was a relief. But now I'm finding I'm asking "Who is relieved?" It's certainly not the seeing that is relieved !! While this feeling of relief is understandable its still a mystery in itself.

Seeing in the way being experienced now is so surprising yet so familiar at the same time.

To give little more context to what occurred here In the previous post you asked

is something wrong with you?

I must admit my first thought that was "That's a very strange question !!" I could not quite understand what you were asking there but thought "Well I'll look and see if I can see anything that might be wrong with me" I was washing a cup as I endeavored to give myself to this question and for a moment the mind was blank of thoughts and it was as though in the clear light of stillness something was noticed that had never been truly seen before. The cup was "here" and "out there " at the same time !! What a question to stop the mind. "Is something wrong with you?" I'm going to call it Lubo's koan !!!

Now to get back to your questions in your last post. Oh my goodness, how to put this in words. I'll do my best. I'll work backwards

What is here without this imagined center?

There is no center point. Just experiencing. I can't control the experiencing. Giving attention to aspects of experience gives that aspect more prominence or amplifies it but the rest of the experience does not disappear. Its just that I'm more conscious of that which attention is given to. But it's not a center per se. (What chooses to give attention to a particular aspect is still a mystery at this time) All I can say to the question "What is here?" is nothing can be said about it except it is full of what is being experienced.

Notice thoughts and believes that there is I/me/center which is in the body, without this childish believe notice
can a center be found?

No center can be found. There is just shapes, colours, sounds, sensations and somehow at the same time they are all seen relative to each other but there is no boundary as such between them even though they are totally distinct from each other. How can this be? I haven't a clue except to say that it seems that what we call mind works its magic. Stunning in its simplicity and elegance. I can't describe it any further. As I'm writing this I'm feeling a surge of emotion and simply shaking my head. I'm sensing the full import of this has yet to hit

Without thoughts explaining here and there is there "out there" at Direct Experience? Out from what?

What is "out there?" Well here goes an attempt to put this in words. Putting a label on something seems to give it perspective. For example as I look out the window at what I call a tree, it seems to be "out there." IF the mind is not involved in what I have labelled a tree, colours and shape is all that is here at this "no center" Now here's something that I'm seeing about objects vs thoughts and sensations and emotions. There seems to be a natural tendency to perceive objects "out there" and thoughts and sensations and emotions "in here" as part of "myself." This seems to build a conviction that these are what I am. For instance when I say "I am sad" if I really look, I see that the tree and sadness are both filling the space of experience but sadness seems to be more "me" than the tree. I need to explore all this so much more

This shift is so subtle yet profound. I find the question arising "Can it really be this simple?" To find the answer I simply look. And there it is. What a mystery. !!!

I'll leave it here for now and wait for your response.

With love

Alan

[Lubo]

Hi Alan,
Good Job !

What a question to stop the mind. "Is something wrong with you?" I'm going to call it Lubo's koan !!!

Nice. You have wonderful sense of humour :)
Notice - to see the answer of this question you need to exit from mind-story world and to arrive here in this very moment.
Notice do you need mind to be right here, right now?
Also this question - "Is something wrong with you?" put under the light subconscious programs which are here to "protect and advise" the little & incapable imagined self
Notice thought-narrative - what story is playing there? Who is under protection of mind-programs?
Is there such thing a self to whom thoughts are speaking to?

I'm more conscious of that which attention is given to

is there a person, a center, Alan in the body which is conscious?

No center can be found. There is just shapes, colours, sounds, sensations and somehow at the same time they are all seen relative to each other but there is no boundary as such between them even though they are totally distinct from each other. How can this be? I haven't a clue except to say that it seems that what we call mind works its magic. Stunning in its simplicity and elegance. I can't describe it any further. As I'm writing this I'm feeling a surge of emotion and simply shaking my head. I'm sensing the full import of this has yet to hit

Wonderful. yes, everything is different but not separate, there is no gap between.
Notice in background is there a story from narrative which explain that there is an entity?
Don't fight with it just notice how illusion happens :) ?

This shift is so subtle yet profound. I find the question arising "Can it really be this simple?" To find the answer I simply look. And there it is. What a mystery. !!!

Yes, it is so simple and profound :) Bravo!

Love and light,
Lubo

[Alless]

Thank you Lubo

The question is potent.

is there a person, a center, Alan in the body which is conscious?

It is clear that there is not an entity, a thing called Alan, a person that is conscious

Notice do you need mind to be right here, right now?

No - its only necessary to navigate this world of form

Is there such thing a self to whom thoughts are speaking to?

Awareness of these thoughts is happening and it can be said hearing of these thoughts is happening but no such thing as a self that is conscious and listening

And these following questions call for deeper looking particularly the portion in red.

Also this question - "Is something wrong with you?" put under the light subconscious programs which are here to "protect and advise" the little & incapable imagined self
Notice thought-narrative - what story is playing there? Who is under protection of mind-programs?

With love


Alan

[Lubo]

Hi Alan,

Excellent!

I'll try to be very clear

It is clear that there is not an entity, a thing called Alan, a person that is conscious

Wonderful. Yes, this is seen already.
Now notice that the program "Protection for Alan" is still running?
Notice is there identification with the image "Alan" which this programs explain you are?

Notice without identification with this made up character 'me, Alan' , do
thoughts about "taking care of" (this small, imperfect character) have power?
Here in LU we are looking for freedom from this imagined character.
Are you free from this character?

Does this make sense? :)

Love
Lubo

[Alless]

Hello Lubo

Thank you for your reply.

Yes it makes perfect sense

Now notice that the program "Protection for Alan" is still running?

Yes it is still running but no where near as strong now. When something triggers it, it kicks in and then when noticed it settles

Are you free from this character?

I would say "Not yet" As I said it does not have the hold it once used to. Often there is space with thoughts passing by but not with the strong criticism or judgement. When triggered by something that upsets it, it flares up momentarily but when seen it settles back down - sometimes quicker than others.

Is this making sense?

In love

Alan

[Lubo]

Hi dear Alan,
sorry for the delay.
If I don't reply you 2 days send me a question mark "?", please :)

Now notice that the program "Protection for Alan" is still running?

Yes it is still running but no where near as strong now. When something triggers it, it kicks in and then when noticed it settles

Ok. meet the program, look at it "in the eyes", and ask
"What are you protect exactly? What part of me is fragile and needs protection?"
And notice the answer.

Are you free from this character?

I would say "Not yet" As I said it does not have the hold it once used to.

Notice what is the connection between imagined character and experience called "body"?
Where the character sticks without the body which is born?
Check in this very moment.

love
Lubo

[Alless]

Afternoon Lubo

No apology necessary and thank you for the suggestion to send a ? if no answer from you in 2 days.

Notice what is the connection between imagined character and experience called "body"?
Where the character sticks without the body which is born?
Check in this very moment.

As I check right now there is an assumption or belief appearing which claims this body to be significant part of "me". And further, this assumption or belief seems to be part of what this imagined character is "made" out of. There is awareness of both of the assumption and the body but a direct connection between this assumption and the body cannot be found. This assumption seems to create a defense relating to the body. Then there is reaction to any perceived perceived threat to the body. I cannot find an entity which is making this assumption - it appears as a thought which is believed without validating it.

Ok. meet the program, look at it "in the eyes", and ask
"What are you protect exactly? What part of me is fragile and needs protection?"
And notice the answer.

This program is there to protect "me" because this "me" believes it is all alone and sees everything separate to it as a threat or potential threat and it has to protect itself. But these threats are all about an imagined past or future. I had this happen a couple of days when a meeting was arranged that I didn't really want to attend. The imagination kicked in with all sorts of strategies to deal with it. I saw what was happening and saw through the story and decided to forget all about it until the meeting arrived. Then today the meeting was all cancelled four days before it happened !!

Simply noticing these thoughts / imagined beliefs and seeing again and again that they have no power is the way to dissolving this separate self???

In love


Alan

In love


Alan

[Lubo]

Hi dear Alam,

This program is there to protect "me" because this "me" believes it is all alone and sees everything separate to it as a threat or potential threat and it has to protect itself.

Look, until there is a believe that there is separate body which is born - the self/entity holds there.
Allow me to take your hand and to lead you in this direction?

Notice how the body is experienced?
Notice also - there is a body which is experienced or there is an experience which is called "body"?
Can you point something which is body but not experience by itself?
Can you point something which is day/night but not experience called day/night?
Is there such thing as day/night?

Love
Lubo

[Alless]

Good Morning Lubo,

I had just about completed a post to you when I hit a key by mistake and deleted the whole thing. Grrrr !!! Frustration is here right now!!! Being experienced in the body ! Having to repeat gives opportunity to really look again

Allow me to take your hand and to lead you in this direction?

Yes please

Look, until there is a believe that there is separate body which is born - the self/entity holds there.

To make sure that I understand your pointing here let me restate this in my own words and you can tell me if I have seen what you mean. I hear you saying that as long as there is a belief that a separate body has been born, then there will be a conviction that there is a separate self (a separate entity) running the show.

Notice how the body is experienced?

The body is experienced through seeing(looking), feeling, hearing, smelling and tasting. These are words that point to different "dimensions" or aspects of experiencing. These dimensions of experience cannot be turned on or off. They simply are - always. Unchanging. No entity is controlling them

When looking/ seeing, all that is seen is colors. There is a temptation to say there are colors PLUS shapes and forms. However what is seen is actually only colors. Shape and form only appear because of change of color. Looking at the body is the same experience. Only colors. Whilst there appears to be an edge to the body and different parts of the body, in reality there is only changing colors.

There is feeling of sensations. There is a variety of sensations in the body that might be broadly call tingling. There are others too of course - pain, burning, soreness. The word tingling in the way it is meant here covers a very broad spectrum. Right now there is a sensation noticed above the right eyebrow. It is called an itch. The "right hand" moves up and makes contact (scratches) with the itch and the sensation changes. This happens with out any entity deciding to do it. It is not possible to find a discreet boundary with these sensations. There is also what might be call gurgling felt in the stomach. There is also a sound heard with this gurgling.

With the body being experienced through hearing, a ringing is noticed in the ears. Gurgling is now no longer heard. Ringing in the ears is the only sound being experienced in what is labelled the body right now.

Can you point something which is body but not experience by itself?

No. The body is something that is experienced by any or all of the 5 senses.

Can you point something which is day/night but not experience called day/night?
Is there such thing as day/night?

The only difference between day and night is the colors we see or not see. The differing colors are seen so much more vividly in day (light). The less light the less difference/ contrast between colors is seen. Light enables seeing of colors.


In love

Alan