Deep Looking - Noel

[Noel_2]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand from reading and listening to nondual talks that I can not find myself. The one I always thought I was. The “Noel” only exists as a thought. As a memory. In the present moment the “noel” character cannot be found without referencing a thought or a memory or a feeling. Since I know that the “Self” or the eternal “I” is not a thought or

What are you looking for at LU?
Guided help to direct my consciousness to look deeper. I want to get to the truth of who or what I truly am. Beyond the thoughts and conditioning. I found LU website back in 2018. However I was not yet ready to fulling dive in. Since that time I have learned more about nonduality and my previous fears of living without the identity of the “noel character” have fallen away. Therefore now coming in 2023 I am ready to “cross the gateless gate” so to speak. 😊

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Even though I’ve seen through some of the illusion, I am still stuck. I am still operation from the small character self of “Noel”. My hope is the LU guide can help with pointers to have more of my illusion fall away. I’d like to live from the truth of my being of what I truly am.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I was initiated into Kriya Yoga in Sept 1999. This is a meditation technique. Most of the teachings are from the Vedas. I was on this path until around 2017, when I found I could not do this any longer. I had created a new identities as the “kriyavan” and “the spiritual aspirant” and “the meditator”. I had to let all those personas drop and fall away. I woke up from that and realized I needed to get back to the basics of what started me on my journey over 20+ years ago. To Wake UP and realize the truth of my being. Then I stumbled across nonduality and inquiry. I started listening to Adyashanti talks in 2018 and reading some of his books.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[warissem]

Good morning Noel

I am glad to accompany you to see through the illusion of a separate self.

There are some agreements to be with during our dialog :

Read the disclaimer text
Learn how to use the quote function
Check here in the forum once a day to find my questions or to answer them, even when you have not got any notification.
Leave aside all the books, videos, audios about spirituality, advaita, ...
Answer with a great honesty to my questions and practice the exercises even if they look childish

When you agree for all of this, we can begin.

Warissem

[Noel_2]

Ok I’ve read the disclaimer text.
I read how to use the quote function and think I got it.
I agree to all the above

Noel_2

[warissem]

Hi Noel

Even though I’ve seen through some of the illusion, I am still stuck. I am still operation from the small character self of “Noel”. My hope is the LU guide can help with pointers to have more of my illusion fall away. I’d like to live from the truth of my being of what I truly am.

What is expected to be "the truth of your being"?
What are you expecting to happen after having seen through the illusion of a separate self?
What are expected as changes in your life?
What is missing?

Warissem

[Noel_2]

Good questions. I’ll need a day or two to ponder. Will post a further reply then.

[warissem]

Hi Noel

Take all the time needed for it.

Warissem

[Noel_2]

What is expected to be "the truth of your being"?- How can I know the unknowable? All I know is I still operate mostly from a “me” a “Noel character”.



What are you expecting to happen after having seen through the illusion of a separate self? I would expect my life on the outside anyway to be mostly the same. Live in the same place. Work in the same place. It is my inward experience I am expecting to be different.

What are expected as changes in your life? -- if I am honest with myself - I am expecting something more than what I’ve experienced thus far. Something like a unity consciousness or seeing /operating from a no self. Experiencing my life without the sense of the self /character.

What is missing?- in truth nothing is missing. How can anything be missing? The Totality already IS. While I know this my experience in this thus far is intellectual as opposed to experiential.

[warissem]

Hi Noel

I am expecting something more than what I’ve experienced thus far.

There is no more or less to what is.

Something like a unity consciousness or seeing /operating from a no self.

No self is what is experienced right now. The illusion is only in the thoughts.

Experiencing my life without the sense of the self /character.

Experiencing life as you, is a lie to see through, the goal of this dialog.

I want you to be familiar of Looking at direct experience and take this key not only to answer to my questions but as a new perspective of looking at what is here now.

Direct experience is : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations. Thoughts are used to communicate.
Here is an example : when i ask about the color of the sky, you can open the window, LOOK AT the sky and SEE its color then give the answer. This is direct experience.
Or, give the answer from thinking, through memory of the sky which was seen the last time.

Another example : you hear a sound. A thought arises : it is a dog barking. This is not direct experience.
You get up and look and there is no dog, it is a child using a barking instrument / it is direct experience.

Let me know if you are clear about this.

Warissem

[Noel_2]

Apologize for late response. I got a little busy with work. Your reply has given me a lot to work with.

I believe I got what your wrote.

Let me apply this ‘looking at direct experience” for a day or 2 and get back to you.

[warissem]

Hi Noel

Practice is good

Warissem

[Noel_2]

Wow and WOW

ok I practiced and am continuing to practice the Direct Experience with only the 5 senses as input. Thoughts of course still arise but are simply labeled "a thought" .

What I got is how freaking conceptual my mind is. I really did not see the depth of it until this exercise. It was also a funny delight. One could get lost from the short trip from say the bathroom to the bedroom. Everything is soo amazing when experiencing it this way.

I would write more about the experience but now it is in the past and only a memory.

so let me start now.
hearing: the click of the keyboard as I type
feeling: the pressure of the keys on my fingers and the movement of my fingers
smell: the lavender on my shirt
seeing: the text popping up on the screen as it is typed
taste:-not much to report there at this time

I also noticed how the conceptual mind - while maybe needed in certain circumstances - is a slight contraction of consciousness and takes energy. It is so relaxing to directly experience with the 5 senses without the conceptual mind.

Ok - I'll keep practicing this.

will await your reply. :)

[warissem]

Hi Noel

Glad to know that you enjoy the trip. Here is an exercise to investigate thoughts.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Give answer to each question separately.

Best for you

Warissem

[Noel_2]

On Thoughts arising:

Where are they coming from and going to? Apart from a stimulus like say my foot itches, then the thought appears “my foot itches” – however free from stimulus like sitting still – thought still arises. I am not able to see from “where” thought is coming from. Nor “where” thought is going. It all is happening in consciousness is all I can ascertain.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
I get a little stuck here. For example let’s say the thought appears “I am unlucky”. Now this may have been prompted by outside events that are of course outside of my control. So I would also have no control of the “I am unlucky” thought popping up. Where I get stuck is my mind can see that thought and then if feels like I have the choice to think “is that true?” or a choice to think to turn the thought around and think “I am lucky”. This is where I am getting stuck. If there is no me to look at these thoughts and consciously inquire – then I guess all that is just happening – again inside consciousness. Is it possible the inquiry just happens?

Can you predict your next thought? NO

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts? No. Even though I could say repeat a something positive in my mind over and over like “I am lucky”. I have no control to never ever again having a negative thought.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts? NO

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought? This question is somewhat similar to the question above about range of thoughts. However I know I cannot permanently choose any kind of thought. For instance one can chant a mantra over and over but still other thoughts can pop up during the chanting.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? No

Ok wow this was a bizarre thought experiment. [yes pun intended 😉 ] Seeing that one has absolutely no control over thoughts. Seeing how random they are.

[warissem]

Hi Noel

You have done good observations, there are some comments.

It all is happening in consciousness is all I can ascertain.

Is it not better to say “thoughts are known”?

Where I get stuck is my mind can see that thought

What is a mind in direct experience ?
Can a mind, which is a bundle of thoughts, do anything ?
Can a thought see or think ?

and then if feels like I have the choice to think “is that true?” or a choice to think to turn the thought around and think “I am lucky”. This is where I am getting stuck.

Can you chose a thought before it appears ?
Is there a basket of thoughts containing “is that true” and “I am lucky” : do you see them before they appear ?

If there is no me to look at these thoughts and consciously inquire – then I guess all that is just happening – again inside consciousness. Is it possible the inquiry just happens?

I invite you to give answers to yourself and avoid “I guess” and “I think” in your answers. You need to be 100 % certain of the truth of the answer which is SEEN (remember the example about the color of the sky)

Is there a you looking at the screen ?
Is there a you hearing the sounds ?

Best for you

Warissem

[Noel_2]

Is it not better to say “thoughts are known”? Wow I never thought of looking at it that way. I get other actions – for example “walking is happening”. When I look closer - Yes I see my thoughts are known.

What is a mind in direct experience ? It depends on one’s definition of “the mind” . I look at mind as the software that processes the stimulus coming into the body through the 5 senses. My consciousness can see the processing happing- which mostly is labeling things and placing them in buckets. Like “this is a good thing so goes in the good bucket”. “This is a bad thing so goes in the bad bucket.” However upon deeper looking I see these are all just thoughts about thoughts . But it’s all happening on its own.
Wow !!! Is that it? Is the mind just thoughts and the self- organizing that happens is just thoughts about thoughts? Ok now I feel like I am falling off my conceptual cliff here. This is sooo weird. But in a good way.


Can a mind, which is a bundle of thoughts, do anything ? No a bundle of thoughts cannot do anything.

Can a thought see or think ? NO

Can you chose a thought before it appears ? NO

Is there a basket of thoughts containing “is that true” and “I am lucky” : do you see them before they appear ? NO


Is there a you looking at the screen ? NO- looking is happening. No me looking

Is there a you hearing the sounds ? NO- hearing is happening. No me hearing