Keen to have a good hard look

[GaryBee]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The self is a very strong concept that has been accepted without question by the mind. It claims ownership and writes stories about reality in order to feel protected and safe. It likes to split things up into conceptual parts like inside and outside. Beyond a concept there is a felt sense that this is true, even when it obviously can’t be. When lo

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to explore this for myself. My thought is that the self is not real, as you say. But hearing someone say it, even me, isn’t enough. I have long been fascinated by the Buddha’s saying “knowledge and vision of things as they actually are”. I don’t expect fireworks or a medal, just a truer seeing.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Someone who can guide me through untangling my beliefs around the self. Provide exercises and things to look for, in a way I can’t do myself. I understand this may involve challenging deeply held beliefs and challenging assumptions, which could be uncomfortable.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I joined a Buddhist group in 2015 and was there for around 5 years. During this time I was using the Mind Illuminated system of meditation which lead to an awakening, far more stillness and a lot less mind, which significantly reduced mental suffering. I realise I am not my thoughts, at least most of them, yet it feels like there is a self and like a job half done. Since then I have done some Zen practise and the Jefferey Martin Finder’s course. I currently do shared awareness practises on Zoom and am a member of the POK community. I have some sense, or glimpses of “just this”, but it is very hard to describe beyond that.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
9

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like. It sounds like you're ready for this.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you know yourself to be a skeptical person, prone to doubt, I may not be the best guide for you. I never had any doubt. I can connect you with one of our other guides who did & who can guide you better than I.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

By the way...

Vince's meeting is tomorrow.

There are 3 meetings & a set of 5 videos you're invited to attend:

Thursday Meetings.

Hi Guys,

we are Luchana & Lubo, guides at LU.

Here is an invitation for you:

Join us each Thursday, 6 pm CET, UTC+1
and let's explore together what is already here.
Let's enjoy together this beauty called Life
MEETINGS ARE ON ZOOM and LIVE on youtube.

To participate in the meetings, send a request to luchanauzunova@gmail.com

You will receive an e-mail confirming your participation and a link to join.

Looking forward to seeing YOU!
Luchana & Lubo
__________________________________________________

Meet up with vince (For LU seekers & guides)

Monday August 14

6 am Sydney (est) Australia
Every 2 weeks after that.

https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86991485768?p ... 12Um5DQT09

Meeting ID: 869 9148 5768
Passcode: 083035

Let him know if you want email reminders.

Vinceschubert@gmail.com

__________________________________________________

Ilona's Meetings

Next group meeting on Zoom is on the 4th of September. (There was one October 9. Not sure when next one is. )

To register send Ilona an email to

admin@ilonaciunaite.com

Looking forward :)


__________________________________________________

(videos)

Hi everyone.

Starting on 15th of October for 5 weeks I will post a new video of guiding sessions we had with Jim.
Here is a link to the first one.

https://youtu.be/gb6FwZ6PlI4

Liberation Unleashed Direct Pointing - The Gateless Gate

Ilona

__________________________________________________

Have fun with these. Looking forward to next reply.

Loving,

[GaryBee]

Hi Stacy,

Thanks for getting back to me. I would have replied yesterday but the notification ended up in my junk folder. I am very grateful for this opportunity.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please

I should be able to post every day. I don't have the best memory, but I will set a daily reminder on my phone.

If you know yourself to be a skeptical person, prone to doubt, I may not be the best guide for you. I never had any doubt. I can connect you with one of our other guides who did & who can guide you better than I.

I think I could be described as a skeptical person and I do doubt some things. On the subject of self I have less doubt, I am pretty sure it doesn't exist, and yet thoughts and feelings make it feel real on a day to day basis. When I look there is no evidence for it as a thing. I sometime worry the self is like a video camera in a TV studio, it can't look at itself and see it exists, but it does, does that make sense.

I certainly don't want to waste your time if another guide would be better.

Metta, Gary.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Gary,

I think you will do just fine.

So, please answer the 4 questions in my first email that are highlighted in blue and we will get started.

Much Love,

[GaryBee]

Hi Stacy,

Great thanks. Looking forward to it.

How will life change?

Life might not change. My experience is that habits and life in general continue as before, but the internal experience of life can change.

How will you change?

All doubt will be gone. Life will unfold rather than be processed “through” a self.

What will be different?

I won’t be spending mental energy of creating and defending something that doesn’t exist.

What is missing?

Nothing is missing, how could anything be missing. Perhaps I don’t understand the question.

What would you like for me to call you?

Gary is fine.

What time zone are you in, please?

I’m in the UK, so GMT.

Metta, Gary.

[Anastacia42]

Good, Gary. Your expectations are fairly reasonable.

Now what comes up when is read that there is no separate self, never has been and never will be? That it is all a made up story?

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Good, Gary. Your expectations are fairly reasonable.

Now what comes up when is read that there is no separate self, never has been and never will be? That it is all a made up story?

Loving,

[GaryBee]

Hi Stacy,

Helps to be reasonable :-)

Now what comes up when is read that there is no separate self, never has been and never will be? That it is all a made up story?

Initially it was a kind of blank shock. Surprising how much more powerful this is when you are asked personally rather than reading it in a book or on YouTube. When that passed there seems to be some anger and a kind of “but, but”, thought which doesn’t have any answers but still persists. Then ideas about me being a separate body that walks around, which isn’t really relevant. Then the feeling and thought, “I am here. I have responsibilities. I have work”, lots of “But, I..”, thoughts.

Metta, Gary.

[Anastacia42]

Thanks, Gary. That question checks for fears. Only fear and expectations can keep you from the truth there is no self. Keep an eye on that and let me know if you need help. We have videos in the exercise or 2 for that.

Don't worry. You are not going to disappear in a puff of smoke. You're simply going to change your perspective and see wha it is. It's like those optical illusions. You know the old woman young woman? Or candlestick face?

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Loving,

[GaryBee]

Hi Stacy,

Hope you are having a good day.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

I believe so. Let me give some examples to check. A sensation of seeing might be a red shape moving over a grey background. The mind labels this as a “car” on a “road”. A funny feeling in my stomach get labelled as “anxiety”, or “fear”. Is this the level you mean? There is also more complex thoughts such as “I am walking to my friends house”. I would acknowledge there is thought, but ignore the content as it is not direct experience. Do I have this right?

Metta, Gary.

[Anastacia42]

Okay, "red" is also a made-up label.

This exercise will make it all clearer:

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[GaryBee]

Thanks Stacy,

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

I wasn't sure if there could be more than more per line, for example, eating=Taste, smell, sensation, but I have kept it simple.

Walking my dog
Cold on my skin, simply=sensation
Traffic noise, simply=sound
Thoughts about the workday ahead, simply=thought
Dog running ahead, simply=seeing
The Blue Sky, simply=colour

Working
Looking at monitors, simply=seeing
Sitting on chair, simply=sensation
Frustration at issues, simply=sensation
Frustration at issues, simply=thought
Listening to colleagues, simply=sound
Thinking of what to say, simply=thought (though actually many times it sort of just happens)
Talking to colleagues, simply=sensations

Eating my evening meal
Thoughts about what to eat, simply=thought
Effort of preparing the food, simply=sensation
Smell of food cooking, simply=smell
Eating the food, simply=taste
Chewing the food, simply=sensation
Seeing the food, simply=seeing
Feeling of food in my stomach, simply=sensation

Lying in Bed
Lying on the bed, simply=sensations
Thinking about the day, simply=thought
Looking at a book, simply=seeing
“hearing”, the book in my head, simply=thought

Metta.

[Anastacia42]

Thank you, yes, only one per line is better. We want you to recognize that Direct Experience is simply the experience of the 5 senses and thought arising, but not its content.

Next, try this one:

u]Mind Labeling Experience[/u]

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving,

[GaryBee]

Hello Stacy,

I’ve done the exercise.

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

Not sure about truer, but missing the “I”, feels more natural and less oppressive.

2. What is here without labels?

Without the I label things feel simpler and freer.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Labels affect the experience. The the “I”, feels darker and sadder.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

With the “I”, there were more pains and itches. Without it felt lighter and more energetic.

Thanks.