LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My understanding is that the cause of suffering is a misunderstanding, about the nature of reality, that there is a separate self/discrete individual directing my life.
There is also the misperception that the separate self is real, has agency and volition. And since I know best, and feel things should be different from how they are, I suffer.
What are you looking for at LU?
I’m looking for guidance recognizing my true nature, and seeing through the illusion of the separate individual traveling through time. Or recognizing the illusion… or just seeing what is, instead of habitually investing in the illusion…
I want to wake up from the dream.
I’ve had many glimpses, whole days, and even a nearly a two week period once where I experienced what I think of as “The Flow”.
I was not in the river. I was the river, and the river was everything.
Everything was one, and it was like scintillating, blooming light, is the best I can come up with to describe those times.
It was absolutely wonderful and perfectly ordinary at once. Just as so many describe.
More recently, the sense of a “me” sort of blips in and out. When “I” am present, it is discernible as not a real separate identity, or at the very least an illusory one. The blip into Awareness reveals that there’s no little me. From the awareness of awareness, little me feels like a strange dream I had.
But that Awareness “State” has, apparently, never had legs. I fall back in to suffering, separate me.
After a blip, and subsequent apparent “backslide”, the ante is upped on suffering as I reidentify as a separate me.
I expect that, with an experienced guide, I will be ultimately disabused of the separate self model, and that I’ll have help along the way to return to awareness; rather than getting so bogged down in personal identity for what feels like (but probably isn’t) longer and longer periods of time (after an Awareness glimpse).
I suspect that it feels this way, because I’ve had enough “glimpses” and stretches even that identifying as a separate self has become essentially unbearable.
I expect that without the identification with a non existent separate self, I will move as life; and be able to look at issues, habits, programs, and the like from Truth; rather than tilting at windmills, and feeling sorry for pitiful me that’s doomed to suffer, and bound to fail. I have to laugh when I give voice to the truth of what I feel/do. How I identify as a sort of “Eyore being”.
What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I’m looking for a kind of “transmission “. Some of my “blips” have come about as resonance is present with an awakened person.
I expect that, with an experienced guide, I will be ultimately disabused of the separate self model, and that I’ll have help along the way to return to awareness; rather than getting so bogged down in personal identity for what feels like (but probably isn’t) longer and longer periods of time (after an Awareness glimpse).
I suspect that it feels this way, because I’ve had enough “glimpses” and stretches, so that now identifying as a separate self has become essentially unbearable.
What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I am a regular professional when it comes to seeking.
I’ve been an active, intentional spiritual seeker for about 10 years, much, much longer if you count all the other not non-duality, worldly seeking. Some of the seeking has been of a spiritual nature, other “seeking” has actually been an aggressive tack to avoid, fill the void, and globally (as in global amnesia) deny whatever is the apparent cause of suffering.
One thing I’ve come to be very clear on, is that what I’m seeking is not in the world. I’m immensely grateful to have seen this, and to have dropped that aspect of compulsive searching somewhat.
Though I confess that, as identified me, I definitely dip my toe in worldly escape. The only difference is that now I often know what I’m doing, and that it’s a hamster wheel activity, not a real something that could help me recognize Truth.
Also, my beliefs/thought rants bear no semblance to “comfort” anymore.
I find myself most frequently residing in the fear circle of hell. It feels like a living horror movie inside sometimes… there is bleed in to dreams as well.
And sometimes… I’m floored by the beauty. Full stop.
Sometimes I cry for no apparent reason, and I can’t really tie it to an emotion, like sadness for example. Often the beauty does this. The sky. The woods. Not infrequently, I See someone. I see right in to their beautiful being. Everything is just that awareness, whether it’s the sky, a friend, sometimes I see the Beauty in strangers, or people I don’t particularly care for (in my identified life). It just does not seem to matter a bit. When the Beauty appears that’s all there is.
I LOVE the beauty.
The other day in IKEA, I was the beauty. Like a stream. I could feel I was the sparkling, joyful river. Everyone I saw was the beauty too. Things that push my buttons normally, just rolled by. This lasted two or three hours.
Then my old companion Fear returned. The presence of fear has escalated, as I have more and more of these “blips” out of whatever version of poor little, suffering me I slither back in to.
None of this seems volitional. Identified me struggles with this…
More recently, I’ve had greater awareness of my patterned habitual thinking. I just notice the thought habits that want: acceptance, control, stabilization and I mostly choose not to act on the thought impulses.
These patterns, and their incumbent strategies, suggestions, and direction seem incredibly lame and transparent; like if I were to employ them it would be patently obvious to all and sundry, that I was jockeying for my own personal gain.
Since this noticing has been happening more and more, I’ve experienced a great reduction in suffering.
The times when my mind typically goes wild with fear and anxiety thoughts are, when I first wake up in the morning, and if/when I wake up in the middle of the night.
Sometimes I’ll even look for the fear in these instances, and I can’t find it… it’s so odd because I’ve lived on this huge fear spectrum for years.
I can identify as the suffering, separate “person” at a moment’s notice though. And the feelings of fear and stuckness can be quite blinding during these stretches.
If I were to express my perception of where I am in this searching, I’d say that I’ve had many glimpses/experiences for the most part, some quite spectacular ones in fact; but only a precious few (twice) are this total “oneness-ness”.
I feel more open, more inclined to see my thoughts as thoughts, and not “me”. But I’m still longing for liberation… to have that full recognition… the longing is fierce.
On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10
Just this…
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Anastacia42
- Posts: 11910
- Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
- Contact:
Re: Just this…
Hi,
Alright, first you need to see through & give up on this expectation of permanent Flow & bliss. As long as you're living in the human experience this will come and go. Anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something.
Watch these 2 videos, please.
https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w
and
https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4
Still, I can give you pointers to use.
Loving,
Alright, first you need to see through & give up on this expectation of permanent Flow & bliss. As long as you're living in the human experience this will come and go. Anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something.
Watch these 2 videos, please.
https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w
and
https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4
Still, I can give you pointers to use.
Loving,
~ Stacy
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
-
BigCloudLove
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:04 am
Re: Just this…
Thank you for your response! I will watch and write back.
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BigCloudLove
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:04 am
Re: Just this…
I’ve been living in a room with light…
…wondering if I was in the dark.
This cracked my heart open. Tears. Recognition.
I’ve been walking around, with the light on, but because I’ve held the belief/expectation that something else is supposed to happen; I reidentify “with” the mind. I believe the stories… but not totally. It’s really just a pattern appearing.
And because the light is already on (but I’m putting my attention on the ego banging on), it’s excruciating when these patterns present and sort of play out. I wanted to be able to say that on a certain date and time, I woke up! Ta-dah!!! That’s just not how it played out for me.
I can’t go back to where I used to be able to anchor. I know now that “anchor” was not real. And the “I” that sought to anchor was not real. I don’t move this way when I’m in that “flow state”, obviously. But I’d never looked at that. I’d never questioned it before seeing these two videos.
Tears have been coming unbidden for days. They just show up. Nothing dramatic and not even connected to an emotion or triggering event. Just a natural movement like Ilona so beautifully illustrates in “Falling”. I had a big flash watching that. I’ve been hanging out in awareness, waiting for awareness to show up in a particular way! I’ve been waiting for what I call a “kablam awakening”, a kind of Big Bang.
The last few weeks this question keeps popping in to my mind: “What if I’m already awake?”, or “Am I already awake?” Some variation on this theme. It sort of floats in my consciousness.
When I watched these videos I saw so clearly that it’s true. The light is on, and I can just let these beliefs and patterns arise. They don’t mean anything. They don’t define me. They don’t and can never turn off the light of awareness, even when thoughts say they can…. Even if I believe those thoughts.
Another thing that’s been happening for a few weeks is this sort of different perspective. I can’t find a “me”, a separate self, but the apparatus is still running. It’s the weirdest thing. It’s like I’m watching the body/mind pull from its lexicon of scripts and roles, sometimes (when I’m not in the flow state) the ego will weigh in with judgements and opinions, but the jig is up on the separate self. I’ve got no skin in the game. The narrator/labeler can’t hurt me. There’s no me to hurt.
What has happened is, because of that unconscious belief that I’m not awake unless the sky cracks open, and angels sing, the narrator throws me in to a sort of untethered , angsty limbo, which actually…. is not a problem… now that I see what’s going on.
The most gobsmacking part of it all, is now that I’ve seen the folly of having a model for recognizing that there’s no self, I completely get the whole “this is just the beginning” thing. My old “kablam model” had no space for anything even resembling that. It was more like KABLAM! I’m awake! Done and done! I believed this was what it was, and if it wasn’t kablam, it just wasn’t real. How ironic.
At the end of the day, if I’m honest, it is a trust issue. Seeing what I’ve described above does not “cure” me. I can’t just put it to bed and call it good, even though the voice in my head says I’m done. I know it’s a liar. It looks like hiding. Like it’s the ego’s way of sneaking back in to the driver’s seat. “You’re good. Nothing to see here. Keep moving.”
I see how now that I’ve recognized this most amazing thing, the urge to put that “happy place,unicorns and rainbows” bit in to a holding pattern, into a kind of “vapor lock”,is almost irresistible. And it’s SUCH utter bullshit, and absolutely nothing…full stop. I was going make a comparison to seeing the truth if no self, but why?
I needed to see this. To keep looking unflinchingly, at the apparatus trying to grab the wheel…
I feel I know way less now. Like the answer to all the questions is “I don’t know.”
A line from a Bob Dylan song comes to mind: “Ah but I was so much older then, I’m younger than that now.” It’s a very freeing thing to not know.
That compulsion for knowing, for being right, is the ultimate recipe for suffering. It’s so relentless. A lot was invested in that, and that could absolutely present again.
There’s no end… the curtain doesn’t close. Life never gets “buttoned down”, even though that’s what we are all taught to believe from a tiny age. It’s all just a belief. The Emperor’s New Clothes”.
Just so very, very grateful to you. To be able to have someone to talk to about this. To have this community, and support. There’s so much I could say, but it’s very late now so I’ll just say for now, good night and thank you. xo
…wondering if I was in the dark.
This cracked my heart open. Tears. Recognition.
I’ve been walking around, with the light on, but because I’ve held the belief/expectation that something else is supposed to happen; I reidentify “with” the mind. I believe the stories… but not totally. It’s really just a pattern appearing.
And because the light is already on (but I’m putting my attention on the ego banging on), it’s excruciating when these patterns present and sort of play out. I wanted to be able to say that on a certain date and time, I woke up! Ta-dah!!! That’s just not how it played out for me.
I can’t go back to where I used to be able to anchor. I know now that “anchor” was not real. And the “I” that sought to anchor was not real. I don’t move this way when I’m in that “flow state”, obviously. But I’d never looked at that. I’d never questioned it before seeing these two videos.
Tears have been coming unbidden for days. They just show up. Nothing dramatic and not even connected to an emotion or triggering event. Just a natural movement like Ilona so beautifully illustrates in “Falling”. I had a big flash watching that. I’ve been hanging out in awareness, waiting for awareness to show up in a particular way! I’ve been waiting for what I call a “kablam awakening”, a kind of Big Bang.
The last few weeks this question keeps popping in to my mind: “What if I’m already awake?”, or “Am I already awake?” Some variation on this theme. It sort of floats in my consciousness.
When I watched these videos I saw so clearly that it’s true. The light is on, and I can just let these beliefs and patterns arise. They don’t mean anything. They don’t define me. They don’t and can never turn off the light of awareness, even when thoughts say they can…. Even if I believe those thoughts.
Another thing that’s been happening for a few weeks is this sort of different perspective. I can’t find a “me”, a separate self, but the apparatus is still running. It’s the weirdest thing. It’s like I’m watching the body/mind pull from its lexicon of scripts and roles, sometimes (when I’m not in the flow state) the ego will weigh in with judgements and opinions, but the jig is up on the separate self. I’ve got no skin in the game. The narrator/labeler can’t hurt me. There’s no me to hurt.
What has happened is, because of that unconscious belief that I’m not awake unless the sky cracks open, and angels sing, the narrator throws me in to a sort of untethered , angsty limbo, which actually…. is not a problem… now that I see what’s going on.
The most gobsmacking part of it all, is now that I’ve seen the folly of having a model for recognizing that there’s no self, I completely get the whole “this is just the beginning” thing. My old “kablam model” had no space for anything even resembling that. It was more like KABLAM! I’m awake! Done and done! I believed this was what it was, and if it wasn’t kablam, it just wasn’t real. How ironic.
At the end of the day, if I’m honest, it is a trust issue. Seeing what I’ve described above does not “cure” me. I can’t just put it to bed and call it good, even though the voice in my head says I’m done. I know it’s a liar. It looks like hiding. Like it’s the ego’s way of sneaking back in to the driver’s seat. “You’re good. Nothing to see here. Keep moving.”
I see how now that I’ve recognized this most amazing thing, the urge to put that “happy place,unicorns and rainbows” bit in to a holding pattern, into a kind of “vapor lock”,is almost irresistible. And it’s SUCH utter bullshit, and absolutely nothing…full stop. I was going make a comparison to seeing the truth if no self, but why?
I needed to see this. To keep looking unflinchingly, at the apparatus trying to grab the wheel…
I feel I know way less now. Like the answer to all the questions is “I don’t know.”
A line from a Bob Dylan song comes to mind: “Ah but I was so much older then, I’m younger than that now.” It’s a very freeing thing to not know.
That compulsion for knowing, for being right, is the ultimate recipe for suffering. It’s so relentless. A lot was invested in that, and that could absolutely present again.
There’s no end… the curtain doesn’t close. Life never gets “buttoned down”, even though that’s what we are all taught to believe from a tiny age. It’s all just a belief. The Emperor’s New Clothes”.
Just so very, very grateful to you. To be able to have someone to talk to about this. To have this community, and support. There’s so much I could say, but it’s very late now so I’ll just say for now, good night and thank you. xo
-
Anastacia42
- Posts: 11910
- Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
- Contact:
Re: Just this…
Good morning,
You are so welcome, sweetheart. I just realized I haven't asked for your name, yet. Yes, it sounds like you are most certainly awake. We have a set of 6 "final" questions that we use to kind of be sure we've covered some basics here.
I'm going to post those. Please keep your answers as clear and succinct as you can. They don't require a long explanation. This will either show me what pointing I can give you to support your clarity or may show that you have realized everything we do here, in which case, you'll be invited to a couple of groups for support.
I haven't posted my usual introduction, so let me just ask your name & timezone for now.
I'll also post information about 3 video chat groups you can attend. You're far from alone here!
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.
Describe intention & give examples from experience.
Describe free will & give examples from experience.
Describe choice & give examples from experience.
Describe control & give examples from experience.
What makes things happen? How does it work?
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?
Loving,
You are so welcome, sweetheart. I just realized I haven't asked for your name, yet. Yes, it sounds like you are most certainly awake. We have a set of 6 "final" questions that we use to kind of be sure we've covered some basics here.
I'm going to post those. Please keep your answers as clear and succinct as you can. They don't require a long explanation. This will either show me what pointing I can give you to support your clarity or may show that you have realized everything we do here, in which case, you'll be invited to a couple of groups for support.
I haven't posted my usual introduction, so let me just ask your name & timezone for now.
I'll also post information about 3 video chat groups you can attend. You're far from alone here!
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.
Describe intention & give examples from experience.
Describe free will & give examples from experience.
Describe choice & give examples from experience.
Describe control & give examples from experience.
What makes things happen? How does it work?
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?
Loving,
~ Stacy
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
-
Anastacia42
- Posts: 11910
- Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
- Contact:
Re: Just this…
There are 3 meetings & a set of 5 videos you're invited to attend:
Thursday Meetings.
Hi Guys,
we are Luchana & Lubo, guides at LU.
Here is an invitation for you:
Join us each Thursday, 6 pm CET, UTC+1
and let's explore together what is already here.
Let's enjoy together this beauty called Life
MEETINGS ARE ON ZOOM and LIVE on youtube.
To participate in the meetings, send a request to luchanauzunova@gmail.com
You will receive an e-mail confirming your participation and a link to join.
Looking forward to seeing YOU!
Luchana & Lubo
__________________________________________________
Meet up with vince (For LU seekers & guides)
Monday August 14
5am Sydney (est) Australia
Every 2 weeks after that.
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86991485768?p ... 12Um5DQT09
Meeting ID: 869 9148 5768
Passcode: 083035
Let him know if you want email reminders.
vinceschubert@gmail.com
__________________________________________________
Ilona's Meetings
Next group meeting on Zoom is on the 4th of September. (There was one October 9. Not sure when next one is. )
To register send Ilona an email to
admin@ilonaciunaite.com
Looking forward :)
__________________________________________________
(videos)
Hi everyone.
Starting on 15th of October for 5 weeks I will post a new video of guiding sessions we had with Jim.
Here is a link to the first one.
https://youtu.be/gb6FwZ6PlI4
Liberation Unleashed Direct Pointing - The Gateless Gate
Ilona
__________________________________________________
You can also download Gateless Gatecrashers from our Resource link & read how others woke up.
Have fun with these. Looking forward to next reply.
Loving,
Thursday Meetings.
Hi Guys,
we are Luchana & Lubo, guides at LU.
Here is an invitation for you:
Join us each Thursday, 6 pm CET, UTC+1
and let's explore together what is already here.
Let's enjoy together this beauty called Life
MEETINGS ARE ON ZOOM and LIVE on youtube.
To participate in the meetings, send a request to luchanauzunova@gmail.com
You will receive an e-mail confirming your participation and a link to join.
Looking forward to seeing YOU!
Luchana & Lubo
__________________________________________________
Meet up with vince (For LU seekers & guides)
Monday August 14
5am Sydney (est) Australia
Every 2 weeks after that.
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86991485768?p ... 12Um5DQT09
Meeting ID: 869 9148 5768
Passcode: 083035
Let him know if you want email reminders.
vinceschubert@gmail.com
__________________________________________________
Ilona's Meetings
Next group meeting on Zoom is on the 4th of September. (There was one October 9. Not sure when next one is. )
To register send Ilona an email to
admin@ilonaciunaite.com
Looking forward :)
__________________________________________________
(videos)
Hi everyone.
Starting on 15th of October for 5 weeks I will post a new video of guiding sessions we had with Jim.
Here is a link to the first one.
https://youtu.be/gb6FwZ6PlI4
Liberation Unleashed Direct Pointing - The Gateless Gate
Ilona
__________________________________________________
You can also download Gateless Gatecrashers from our Resource link & read how others woke up.
Have fun with these. Looking forward to next reply.
Loving,
~ Stacy
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
-
BigCloudLove
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:04 am
Re: Just this…
Thank you everso for the resources and quick reply. You are so lovely. My name is Marisa and I am in EST, east coast time US.
I will post my responses to your questions as soon as I can give them their due. I won’t be long to respond.
I will watch Ilona’s videos. I love these, and have had the pleasure of seeing a few of her offerings on YouTube a little bit ago. I have received what I understand as “transmission” from her via this avenue. They are very potent, in a very lovely, gentle way.
Thank you for these, for the questions, pointing, and for being with me in the way you are. Such a full heart here. xo
I will post my responses to your questions as soon as I can give them their due. I won’t be long to respond.
I will watch Ilona’s videos. I love these, and have had the pleasure of seeing a few of her offerings on YouTube a little bit ago. I have received what I understand as “transmission” from her via this avenue. They are very potent, in a very lovely, gentle way.
Thank you for these, for the questions, pointing, and for being with me in the way you are. Such a full heart here. xo
-
Anastacia42
- Posts: 11910
- Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
- Contact:
Re: Just this…
You're welcome, Marisa.
Be aware that you have some beliefs that cannot be found in Direct Experience. Paying attention to this will help you stabilize your seeing in the Direct & Actual Experiences, as described in this pointer:
This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:
Colored Socks
There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:
If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:
• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.
• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!
Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.
For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.
Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that
We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..
Direct or Actual Experience is
Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)
Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
I'll be watching for your next reply.
Loving,
Be aware that you have some beliefs that cannot be found in Direct Experience. Paying attention to this will help you stabilize your seeing in the Direct & Actual Experiences, as described in this pointer:
This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:
Colored Socks
There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:
If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:
• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.
• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!
Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.
For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.
Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that
We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..
Direct or Actual Experience is
Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)
Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
I'll be watching for your next reply.
Loving,
~ Stacy
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
-
BigCloudLove
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:04 am
Re: Just this…
Oh yes I see… my default is NOT this. Not direct I mean. My default is a sort of “being in the know”, without ACTUALLY knowing anything…
I have a drawer full of colored socks, but I haven’t opened that drawer in ages, because I’m coming from “I already know”, ugh…
As yucky as this is to run up against, again, it’s an old chestnut of mine… perhaps THE old chestnut, it’s also great to see it. I mean not to just lapse back in to the default and then wonder why the center will not hold, but to see the investment in the “me that knows”, the buy-in to the illusion, and The Emperor’s New Clothes… Actual experience is the little boy who says “He’s naked.”
Thank you. This is helpful. More later.
I have a drawer full of colored socks, but I haven’t opened that drawer in ages, because I’m coming from “I already know”, ugh…
As yucky as this is to run up against, again, it’s an old chestnut of mine… perhaps THE old chestnut, it’s also great to see it. I mean not to just lapse back in to the default and then wonder why the center will not hold, but to see the investment in the “me that knows”, the buy-in to the illusion, and The Emperor’s New Clothes… Actual experience is the little boy who says “He’s naked.”
Thank you. This is helpful. More later.
-
BigCloudLove
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:04 am
Re: Just this…
Questions:
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There is no separate self, and never was. So, while there was apparent identification as separate self, that “identification event(s)”, however prolonged, is not evidence of a separate self, but rather an appearance in consciousness.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
I see the illusion of the separate self as a kind of forgetting... It’s something that seems to be on offer in the mind via thinking, and it’s believed, or not. For me it started very young, this “forgetting”, like maybe by age 5 or 6, I was lost to myself.
Before forgetting, I vividly recall the oneness, a sense of always expanding and being that “soup”. Words are very hard to pull, for the vast infinitude, beauty, expansion, scintillation, movement, and sometimes horror, darkness, everythingness; and sometimes nothing. Stiller than still. Blacker than night.
I remember turning away. Turning toward the world. Toward my parents. The sorrow of doing this is indescribable. It’s just what happened. The turning, the sorrow, the gradual loss of Home. By age 7 I had forgotten and had invested in looking outside for “my” everything. I believed that I’d lost my tether. That I was separate and “at risk”. Not okay.
Even though the separate self has been clearly seen through, recognized as not real, the illusion is tenacious… it feels that way anyway. So, in my experience, the believing in thoughts, fear, desire for control etc., loom large and the sensation of suffering and separation feel like a maelstrom sometimes. Feel real. Again, feel like a separate “me”.
So, here’s the weird part, today as I was driving to the store, I was feeling that separate-self, confusion/frustration, emotional mix (very familiar), and I suddenly went “Who is feeling this? Who is separate and sad? Who is suffering?”, and poof… it was seen that it was no one…
Maybe that potent cocktail swirling inside me stayed for a second, or a minute after that; I don’t know. But the suffering part was gone instantly, with that recognition. Whatever was there was just appearing in consciousness.
Who was asking this question? No one. Such releasing freedom arises in this awareness. Everything just arises. Life lives. Breath breathes. Everything gets done. No doer doing. No sufferer suffering.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
From the last few days, what seems to have occurred is that the wheels came off the illusion.
I started asking “If I keep doing the same thing and that “doing” never delivers on its promise to fix me, will it ever? It became completely clear that the answer was no. And if the answer is no, and that hamster wheel of bullshit is just that, what’s real? I could not find a separate individual when I looked. It was clear that everything I was “doing” was happening in imagination, in thought, in the future, or in the past; none of which are real. It was seen that life is a great and wonderous mystery that IS me, and “I” know nothing of it.
I cannot pinpoint a specific moment… there was just more and more questioning, more and more noticing. It was not so much that a light came on illuminating the “real me” like I thought it would, so much as it was a simple dropping away of illusion. What was revealed, had always been there. Nothing had actually changed. Everything was/is essentially the same, just seeing without the filter.
When I would look between thoughts, it was clear there was not a “self”. I could see the energy of life unfolding. One infinite life, living. It’s hard to describe what was so clear in that experience. It was the very same “soup” from when I was little.
So the funny thing is that nothing had “changed” about the “soup”. It was still “souping” and I saw that I was always the “soup souping”. I had never stopped. “I” had never been separated from it, because there was no “I” to peel off from that oneness. Words are so object/subject. I hope I am expressing the essence…
There is never not awareness. There is never not seeing… it’s like I am hypnotized by the dream, but how can I be?
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Who knows? I wanted it so bad. Just to see. I kept orienting that way, and in a very strong way recently; but really always during seeking there was that longing to come home to the home that was never left. Grace maybe…
When I started talking to you and I watched those two videos, something so totally obvious loomed into bold relief.
When I got the pointer about being in the light but wondering if I was in the dark, that did it. It was her face too… Something in her face said “I am you. Nothing is separate.” Everything sort of melted and I could see that everything is okay. Always.
I got that I’m not alone. I’ve never been alone, and it’s not even possible for that to be the case. Whatever apparatus was holding up that illusion of separation, dropped away to reveal that it never was. How strange it seems now to give it voice.
5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.
Decision happens in the past or future. It’s part of the illusion. Decision never happens in fact, because there is no one to decide. I can give no examples from experience because no one ever decided anything. Life just lives. Everything just unfolds.
When I believed I was a doer deciding, I failed. Every single time. There is no me orchestrating life. “Mine” or otherwise.
Describe intention & give examples from experience.
Intention is the same as decision. It’s a fool’s game. Just a game. An imaginary me “intends” for a certain outcome to happen to, or for, an imaginary me. How bloody ridiculous. I don’t mean that in a judging way. It’s just a fact. It’s funny I did this to “myself” for seeming ages. I would “intend” for things, for my life to look a certain way. It was always outside in. How would I appear to “others”? The assumption was that once my intention came to fruition, I’d be carefree and happy. Never mind that there was never ever any evidence that this would be the case. It could not be, because nothing about it was real. Everything was in my “dreamtime”. I kept “intending” over and over, “failing”, and expecting different results… all in my imagination…
Describe free will & give examples from experience.
There is no free will, and no determinism. A separate me, or other, is not in charge of how life unfolds; so, these concepts are just that… ideas… smoke and mirrors. Not real.
In my dream of separation, I was a free will girl. I just laugh now. I did the same thing with free will that I did with deciding, intention, yadda yadda. I played a game of pretend and told a story (lots of stories actually) that “we all” have free will and life is rosy with a cherry on top, if we are good and think positively. That was my free will story. Doesn’t sound very free, does it? It wasn’t. It was a lovely, little, boring story I told much of my life. Wishing did not make it so. And all the while life unfolded… No unfolder. No doer. No me.
Describe choice & give examples from experience.
Choice. That’s a rich one. It looks so crazy and hilarious that I BELIEVED in choice. I thought I was choosing, and so was “everyone else”. And what a messed-up lot of choices we were making all the time.
Choice for me was tied to judgement. Judgement of myself and others. Judgement of “how things are and how things should be.” I was not seeing. I was living in my head. Believing that I was a doer making choices was awful. That illusion was incredibly painful. I’m not saying that the illusion of choice was actually real, and that a separate me suffered because of it. I’m saying that in that illusion there was intense suffering. Full stop.
Choice for me has been a lot about fixing what’s broken. Seeing life through a filter of damage, danger, and entropy. My filter was/is very dark, and to add even more layers and complexity to the story, I painted a sort of Polyanna persona over this very dark lens.
I feel there is a lot of work to do here. Not sure how that will unfold, but I know that seeing through the illusion of the separate self is the tip of the iceberg on this shadowy aspect of “me”. It’s not gone. It’s not cooked… I did a lot of burying with this one.
Describe control & give examples from experience.
Ahhh my old friend control… There is no such thing. There is no separate controller. There is no “thing” to control. Life just happens. We can’t know from one second to the next what will be. So how could “I” control anything?
In the dream for me, it can be a mild sort of magical thinking. On a different day it can be a very upsetting and distressing notion.
In the magical thinking I could control others, outcomes, always in some other time frame from now. Control for me is very unconscious and knee jerk. Half the time I have no idea I am going there.
Very recently, I see it as it’s happening. I see the buy in, and I can just notice that. Sometimes I chose to just notice the attempt to control and let it go by. Sometimes I bite, but there is awareness there to a much greater degree.
What makes things happen? How does it work?
I’ve no idea. None.
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Life is a mystery. It just unfolds as it does. There is no “other” or “self” to govern anything. And what thing needs tending and oversight? What needs to be controlled? Nothing.
If it looks like I need to control, change, manipulate or govern anything, I’m lost in the illusion. I’m in my head. I am not here to see that everything is just fine as it is.
I go there, sure. I have a long history of elaborate, compulsive control schemes. I am the wizard, running the show.
Once again, I notice that noticing, and having more awareness around my impulses (conscious and unconscious) around control does not magically eliminate said impulses.
It is not about being done with that bother once and for all. Sometimes I think it is, but really it’s not. And when I remember that, I recognize the freedom in whatever is going on. Amazing to see that freedom is on offer, even in the stickiest of mind tricks.
6) Anything to add?
The amazing thing about awakening is seeing that I was always awake. Just recently with these two videos and pointing, I saw I was awake with a capital A, and didn’t really recognize that awareness has been palpably present for a while now. How funny that is…
The deeper awareness is that it/awareness did not leave me when I was 7 or so. It was not there in the beginning and then gone, then back again after years of seeking. It truly sustains. It feels like this sort of music of the spheres, chord of life, that ever rings throughout every valley, every peak, every mystery, every apparent known thing, every confusion, hurt, joy, just everything.
It can not die. Awareness is all. Whether I am lost in confusion and frustration feeling I’ve “lost it”, or swimming in/as the sparkling soup. No matter what, it cannot depart, or change, or be predictable, or limited. It can only be.
I move in and out of this awareness “I’m awake!” experience. Sometimes I feel I have lost it, and I hunt around and suffer a little bit, then something shifts, and I appear to reconnect. The light seems to come on “again”.
I was feeling sort of bad and fucked up about this. Like I am “sort of” a doer, and I’m to blame… blah blah blah. And I just can’t get really down with that anymore. It has no legs. I’m sort of a dilettante at not being awake, lol! Which is not to say I will never ever ever be in the illusion again. How could I possibly know that?
Whatever… the great bit is that it’s totally okay. As I feel my way around in this, even the parts I judge as not being okay, or noticing I am lost in the future/past, intellect, I’m still okay. I just got this.
I don’t even know what to say about it, but that I’ve noticed this. It seems so epic. I have no way of knowing… anything really… I love that.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There is no separate self, and never was. So, while there was apparent identification as separate self, that “identification event(s)”, however prolonged, is not evidence of a separate self, but rather an appearance in consciousness.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
I see the illusion of the separate self as a kind of forgetting... It’s something that seems to be on offer in the mind via thinking, and it’s believed, or not. For me it started very young, this “forgetting”, like maybe by age 5 or 6, I was lost to myself.
Before forgetting, I vividly recall the oneness, a sense of always expanding and being that “soup”. Words are very hard to pull, for the vast infinitude, beauty, expansion, scintillation, movement, and sometimes horror, darkness, everythingness; and sometimes nothing. Stiller than still. Blacker than night.
I remember turning away. Turning toward the world. Toward my parents. The sorrow of doing this is indescribable. It’s just what happened. The turning, the sorrow, the gradual loss of Home. By age 7 I had forgotten and had invested in looking outside for “my” everything. I believed that I’d lost my tether. That I was separate and “at risk”. Not okay.
Even though the separate self has been clearly seen through, recognized as not real, the illusion is tenacious… it feels that way anyway. So, in my experience, the believing in thoughts, fear, desire for control etc., loom large and the sensation of suffering and separation feel like a maelstrom sometimes. Feel real. Again, feel like a separate “me”.
So, here’s the weird part, today as I was driving to the store, I was feeling that separate-self, confusion/frustration, emotional mix (very familiar), and I suddenly went “Who is feeling this? Who is separate and sad? Who is suffering?”, and poof… it was seen that it was no one…
Maybe that potent cocktail swirling inside me stayed for a second, or a minute after that; I don’t know. But the suffering part was gone instantly, with that recognition. Whatever was there was just appearing in consciousness.
Who was asking this question? No one. Such releasing freedom arises in this awareness. Everything just arises. Life lives. Breath breathes. Everything gets done. No doer doing. No sufferer suffering.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
From the last few days, what seems to have occurred is that the wheels came off the illusion.
I started asking “If I keep doing the same thing and that “doing” never delivers on its promise to fix me, will it ever? It became completely clear that the answer was no. And if the answer is no, and that hamster wheel of bullshit is just that, what’s real? I could not find a separate individual when I looked. It was clear that everything I was “doing” was happening in imagination, in thought, in the future, or in the past; none of which are real. It was seen that life is a great and wonderous mystery that IS me, and “I” know nothing of it.
I cannot pinpoint a specific moment… there was just more and more questioning, more and more noticing. It was not so much that a light came on illuminating the “real me” like I thought it would, so much as it was a simple dropping away of illusion. What was revealed, had always been there. Nothing had actually changed. Everything was/is essentially the same, just seeing without the filter.
When I would look between thoughts, it was clear there was not a “self”. I could see the energy of life unfolding. One infinite life, living. It’s hard to describe what was so clear in that experience. It was the very same “soup” from when I was little.
So the funny thing is that nothing had “changed” about the “soup”. It was still “souping” and I saw that I was always the “soup souping”. I had never stopped. “I” had never been separated from it, because there was no “I” to peel off from that oneness. Words are so object/subject. I hope I am expressing the essence…
There is never not awareness. There is never not seeing… it’s like I am hypnotized by the dream, but how can I be?
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Who knows? I wanted it so bad. Just to see. I kept orienting that way, and in a very strong way recently; but really always during seeking there was that longing to come home to the home that was never left. Grace maybe…
When I started talking to you and I watched those two videos, something so totally obvious loomed into bold relief.
When I got the pointer about being in the light but wondering if I was in the dark, that did it. It was her face too… Something in her face said “I am you. Nothing is separate.” Everything sort of melted and I could see that everything is okay. Always.
I got that I’m not alone. I’ve never been alone, and it’s not even possible for that to be the case. Whatever apparatus was holding up that illusion of separation, dropped away to reveal that it never was. How strange it seems now to give it voice.
5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.
Decision happens in the past or future. It’s part of the illusion. Decision never happens in fact, because there is no one to decide. I can give no examples from experience because no one ever decided anything. Life just lives. Everything just unfolds.
When I believed I was a doer deciding, I failed. Every single time. There is no me orchestrating life. “Mine” or otherwise.
Describe intention & give examples from experience.
Intention is the same as decision. It’s a fool’s game. Just a game. An imaginary me “intends” for a certain outcome to happen to, or for, an imaginary me. How bloody ridiculous. I don’t mean that in a judging way. It’s just a fact. It’s funny I did this to “myself” for seeming ages. I would “intend” for things, for my life to look a certain way. It was always outside in. How would I appear to “others”? The assumption was that once my intention came to fruition, I’d be carefree and happy. Never mind that there was never ever any evidence that this would be the case. It could not be, because nothing about it was real. Everything was in my “dreamtime”. I kept “intending” over and over, “failing”, and expecting different results… all in my imagination…
Describe free will & give examples from experience.
There is no free will, and no determinism. A separate me, or other, is not in charge of how life unfolds; so, these concepts are just that… ideas… smoke and mirrors. Not real.
In my dream of separation, I was a free will girl. I just laugh now. I did the same thing with free will that I did with deciding, intention, yadda yadda. I played a game of pretend and told a story (lots of stories actually) that “we all” have free will and life is rosy with a cherry on top, if we are good and think positively. That was my free will story. Doesn’t sound very free, does it? It wasn’t. It was a lovely, little, boring story I told much of my life. Wishing did not make it so. And all the while life unfolded… No unfolder. No doer. No me.
Describe choice & give examples from experience.
Choice. That’s a rich one. It looks so crazy and hilarious that I BELIEVED in choice. I thought I was choosing, and so was “everyone else”. And what a messed-up lot of choices we were making all the time.
Choice for me was tied to judgement. Judgement of myself and others. Judgement of “how things are and how things should be.” I was not seeing. I was living in my head. Believing that I was a doer making choices was awful. That illusion was incredibly painful. I’m not saying that the illusion of choice was actually real, and that a separate me suffered because of it. I’m saying that in that illusion there was intense suffering. Full stop.
Choice for me has been a lot about fixing what’s broken. Seeing life through a filter of damage, danger, and entropy. My filter was/is very dark, and to add even more layers and complexity to the story, I painted a sort of Polyanna persona over this very dark lens.
I feel there is a lot of work to do here. Not sure how that will unfold, but I know that seeing through the illusion of the separate self is the tip of the iceberg on this shadowy aspect of “me”. It’s not gone. It’s not cooked… I did a lot of burying with this one.
Describe control & give examples from experience.
Ahhh my old friend control… There is no such thing. There is no separate controller. There is no “thing” to control. Life just happens. We can’t know from one second to the next what will be. So how could “I” control anything?
In the dream for me, it can be a mild sort of magical thinking. On a different day it can be a very upsetting and distressing notion.
In the magical thinking I could control others, outcomes, always in some other time frame from now. Control for me is very unconscious and knee jerk. Half the time I have no idea I am going there.
Very recently, I see it as it’s happening. I see the buy in, and I can just notice that. Sometimes I chose to just notice the attempt to control and let it go by. Sometimes I bite, but there is awareness there to a much greater degree.
What makes things happen? How does it work?
I’ve no idea. None.
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Life is a mystery. It just unfolds as it does. There is no “other” or “self” to govern anything. And what thing needs tending and oversight? What needs to be controlled? Nothing.
If it looks like I need to control, change, manipulate or govern anything, I’m lost in the illusion. I’m in my head. I am not here to see that everything is just fine as it is.
I go there, sure. I have a long history of elaborate, compulsive control schemes. I am the wizard, running the show.
Once again, I notice that noticing, and having more awareness around my impulses (conscious and unconscious) around control does not magically eliminate said impulses.
It is not about being done with that bother once and for all. Sometimes I think it is, but really it’s not. And when I remember that, I recognize the freedom in whatever is going on. Amazing to see that freedom is on offer, even in the stickiest of mind tricks.
6) Anything to add?
The amazing thing about awakening is seeing that I was always awake. Just recently with these two videos and pointing, I saw I was awake with a capital A, and didn’t really recognize that awareness has been palpably present for a while now. How funny that is…
The deeper awareness is that it/awareness did not leave me when I was 7 or so. It was not there in the beginning and then gone, then back again after years of seeking. It truly sustains. It feels like this sort of music of the spheres, chord of life, that ever rings throughout every valley, every peak, every mystery, every apparent known thing, every confusion, hurt, joy, just everything.
It can not die. Awareness is all. Whether I am lost in confusion and frustration feeling I’ve “lost it”, or swimming in/as the sparkling soup. No matter what, it cannot depart, or change, or be predictable, or limited. It can only be.
I move in and out of this awareness “I’m awake!” experience. Sometimes I feel I have lost it, and I hunt around and suffer a little bit, then something shifts, and I appear to reconnect. The light seems to come on “again”.
I was feeling sort of bad and fucked up about this. Like I am “sort of” a doer, and I’m to blame… blah blah blah. And I just can’t get really down with that anymore. It has no legs. I’m sort of a dilettante at not being awake, lol! Which is not to say I will never ever ever be in the illusion again. How could I possibly know that?
Whatever… the great bit is that it’s totally okay. As I feel my way around in this, even the parts I judge as not being okay, or noticing I am lost in the future/past, intellect, I’m still okay. I just got this.
I don’t even know what to say about it, but that I’ve noticed this. It seems so epic. I have no way of knowing… anything really… I love that.
-
Anastacia42
- Posts: 11910
- Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
- Contact:
Re: Just this…
Hi,
Your replies are beautiful. I will now share them with other guides, who may have questions. Stay tuned to this space & to your Private Messages above for more information.
You are invited to participate in the 3 groups I posted above. Talking with others who SEE can help you unravel false beliefs that are pulling you out of clarity.
Loving,
Your replies are beautiful. I will now share them with other guides, who may have questions. Stay tuned to this space & to your Private Messages above for more information.
You are invited to participate in the 3 groups I posted above. Talking with others who SEE can help you unravel false beliefs that are pulling you out of clarity.
Loving,
~ Stacy
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
-
BigCloudLove
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:04 am
Re: Just this…
I will watch here, and join the groups. From the deepest place I send you big love and gratitude. Your pointers made all the difference. xo
-
Anastacia42
- Posts: 11910
- Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
- Contact:
Re: Just this…
My pleasure! I am just bringing about world peace one mind at a time
~ Stacy
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
-
Anastacia42
- Posts: 11910
- Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
- Contact:
Re: Just this…
Hi,
I don't think I ever got your name.
I'm Stacy Ann Clark on Facebook if you want to connect there.
You've crossed the Gateless Gate, which, as you know, is just a beginning for unraveling any untrue thoughts & beliefs for Ffuller clarity. As far as we can tell this is a lifelong process.
Much love
I don't think I ever got your name.
I'm Stacy Ann Clark on Facebook if you want to connect there.
You've crossed the Gateless Gate, which, as you know, is just a beginning for unraveling any untrue thoughts & beliefs for Ffuller clarity. As far as we can tell this is a lifelong process.
Much love
~ Stacy
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."
~ Adyashanti
-
BigCloudLove
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:04 am
Re: Just this…
It’s Marisa. I sent it but it may have been lost in the thread shuffle.
A pleasure to have had you as a guide Stacy Ann, and I’d love to keep connected.
I’m not on Facebook. I don’t know if I’m going to sign up… I did get a lovely invite this morning, and helpful PDF, from an LU member who invited me to a Facebook group, a support one I think. She also gave me a link here to a forum, also supporting.
If I do join FB you’ll be the first person I’ll friend.
I’ll let you know either way.
I love your plan for world peace, and am grateful to be a part of. What a difference you made for me.
Big love,
Marisa
xo
A pleasure to have had you as a guide Stacy Ann, and I’d love to keep connected.
I’m not on Facebook. I don’t know if I’m going to sign up… I did get a lovely invite this morning, and helpful PDF, from an LU member who invited me to a Facebook group, a support one I think. She also gave me a link here to a forum, also supporting.
If I do join FB you’ll be the first person I’ll friend.
I’ll let you know either way.
I love your plan for world peace, and am grateful to be a part of. What a difference you made for me.
Big love,
Marisa
xo
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