Into the great wide open...

[whiterabbit]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I don't understand it. When I use the word "self", I mean an awareness of things happening. A recognition of waking up in the morning. A recognition of a familiar bed. A recognition of a familiar person. I don't believe I experientially understand what "no self" here means; except for brief glimpses.

What are you looking for at LU?
In watching LU videos and texts something resonated. I don't understand why or what. There was a recognition of something that made sense. I have found similar messages elsewhere, but here I found it in yet another new yet familiar form. Something makes me interested to learn more. Something is pulling me in...

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I don't know what to expect. This form of inquiry is new to me. :) I hope that whoever guides is playful and gentle. I hope to be led to new places and new perspectives. I hope to laugh and to see things for what they are.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Many years of intense seeking and inquiry: both in organized settings and through individual artistic practice. Various glimpses and insights, which eventually seemed to fade again.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[warissem]

Good morning

I am glad to accompany you and help to see through the illusion of a separate self. There are some agreements about the functioning of our dialog :

Come once a day on this forum to give your answers and to check about my posts. It is important to maintain the flow of looking.
Leave aside all books and videos about advaita, spirituality. You can continue to do meditation if any
Be 100 % honest when you give answers to my questions : an answer must be SEEN in direct experience not given through thinking
Read the disclaimer text
Learn how to use the quote function.

We can begin when you agree with the points above.

Warissem

[whiterabbit]

We can begin when you agree with the points above.

Hi Warissem. I'm ready. I can commit to at least two weeks of daily check-in.

[warissem]

Hi

Ok, great. I would like to know about your expectations after seeing through the illusion of a separate self :

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Thanks

Warissem

[whiterabbit]

Alright, warissem, here we go...

How will life change [after seeing through the illusion of a separate self]?

I don't know. I've heard others experiencing relief and ease in how things are perceived; I don't know what would happen here though.

How will you change [after...]?

If the I is an illusion, then I guess "I" will be no more.

What will be different [after...]?

Intuitively, a stillness permeates and underlies everything that happens here.

What is missing [after...]?

Intuitively, nothing. A step has been taken back to get a wider view, things are seen more clearly.

[warissem]

Good morning

Your expectations are realistic. You said :

If the I is an illusion, then I guess "I" will be no more.

In the forum "illusion" is put for a false idea or belief. We say that a belief in an existing separate entity which is managing life, is an illusion. It means, even before seeing through this illusion, everything is operating without the need of you, as a separate self. I mean that "I" as a thought, will continue to arise but you see it as what it is, a thought. In this perspective, I want to know about you :

What is "I", you, outside of thoughts ?

Warissem

[whiterabbit]

What is "I", you, outside of thoughts ?

The way things seem here, there is observation of what's happening and there is managing.

1. Observation. This involves taking in various sense-inputs, thoughts included. It is passive.
2. Managing. This involves deciding to get out of bed, deciding whether to say "yes" or "no" to a request, how to react to something happening, or guiding others. It is active. It compares, contrasts, and weighs various observations... and then it consciously decides: it signals to various muscles and organs to take action.

The most continuous form of "I", as seen here, is observation. However, active managing also happens at times, and I call this "I" as well, the active "I".

[warissem]

Good afternoon

The most continuous form of "I", as seen here, is observation. However, active managing also happens at times, and I call this "I" as well, the active "I"

You gave details about observation and managing :

1. Observation. This involves taking in various sense-inputs, thoughts included. It is passive.

Yes, there is observation of appearances (sense inputs) and thoughts. Is there an observer ?

2. Managing. This involves deciding to get out of bed, deciding whether to say "yes" or "no" to a request, how to react to something happening, or guiding others. It is active. It compares, contrasts, and weighs various observations... and then it consciously decides:

Then you believe that there is a you, an entity which makes decisions and choices. If it is the case, where to find this entity? Point with your finger to the place where it hides.

it signals to various muscles and organs to take action.

Does the thought "I" give signals to muscles ? or is it just a functioning of a brain ?

Best wishes

Warissem

.

[whiterabbit]

1. Observation. This involves taking in various sense-inputs, thoughts included. It is passive.

[...] Is there an observer ?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by observer. The way it appears here, observation is happening. Life is happening.

I tried to direct my attention towards where observation comes together... the felt sense of it..
- Sound seems to come in through the ears and spread a little all over inside the head. Own spoken sound seems to go to the back somewhere.
- Visuals come in through the eyes and seem to go to the back/top of the head somewhere.
- Touch is sensed a little all over the body and then seems to get routed to the center of the head.

When I close my eyes, there does seem to be a felt center somewhere in the center of the head where it all comes together. Even stillness.

2. Managing. This involves deciding to get out of bed, deciding whether to say "yes" or "no" to a request, how to react to something happening, or guiding others. It is active. It compares, contrasts, and weighs various observations... and then it consciously decides:

Then you believe that there is a you, an entity which makes decisions and choices. If it is the case, where to find this entity? Point with your finger to the place where it hides.

The felt sense, is that decision happens somewhere between the temples, behind the eyes. When I close my eyes, and try to locate what is happening, where it all comes together, it seems to be anchored around there.

it signals to various muscles and organs to take action.

Does the thought "I" give signals to muscles ? or is it just a functioning of a brain ?

I'm not sure I understand the question. The way it appears here, the muscles are like a musical instrument, a trumpet. The "active I" has ways to send signals to the instrument. It may not understand how the instrument works or how the connecting medium works (the signaling), but there is a connection; like a trumpet, it can willingly send it signals without knowing how the trumpet or its valves work.

This active I isn't always there. Often decision making seems to happen by itself, actions happen by themselves, the trumpet is played by itself, and these decisions and actions can be observed. However, this is not always the case. Sometimes, there seems to be conscious decision, conscious intention, and conscious action taking.

[warissem]

Hi

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by observer. The way it appears here, observation is happening. Life is happening.

Yes observation is happening. By “observer” I mean “someone” doing observation.

I tried to direct my attention towards where observation comes together... the felt sense of it..
- Sound seems to come in through the ears and spread a little all over inside the head. Own spoken sound seems to go to the back somewhere.
- Visuals come in through the eyes and seem to go to the back/top of the head somewhere.
- Touch is sensed a little all over the body and then seems to get routed to the center of the head.

When I close my eyes, there does seem to be a felt center somewhere in the center of the head where it all comes together. Even stillness.

Having read what is said above, there is a need to be familiar with looking at direct experience which is the key to see through the illusion of a separate self. Direct experience is : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching (or sensations). Thoughts and concepts are only used for communication.

As you can see, there is a difference between imagining a glass of water and taking a glass of water in your hands. In the first case you will stay thirsty, in the second case you can drink the water and quench the thirst. When I ask a question, look at direct experience before giving an answer. When the answer is seen, heard, smelt, tasted or touched (or felt as a sensation), just post it. If not the answer comes from thoughts. Having said that, I invite you to look at what you have said above (about sound, visuals, touch, this center in the head) and give answers through direct experience. See it for yourself.

I invite you to go back to my previous post and give answers through direct experience.

Best for you

Warissem

[whiterabbit]

I like that you use metaphor. That is helpful for me. I will answer again.

Is there an observer ? ("Someone" doing observation.)

When there's sensation, there is touch experienced a little bit everywhere, there is sound, a little bit everywhere. When there's no thinking, sensation is all there is.

You believe that there is a you, an entity which makes decisions and choices. If it is the case, where to find this entity? Point with your finger to the place where it hides.

When there is no thinking, no such entity seems to be there. When there is thinking, it is heard where my voice is heard when I speak; imagery appears similarly to where imagery appears "outside", it's just a little less clear and seems located in the head somewhere in the darkness. There seems to be an "observer" observing the thoughts as they appear, in order to decide which ones to turn into speech.

Does the thought "I" give signals to muscles ? or is it just a functioning of a brain ?

I don't know. The question doesn't make sense from direct experience only. It seems to involve concepts.

[warissem]

Good evening

After having read your answers there is a need to be familiar with looking at direct experience. There is an exercise I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:-

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go.

Warissem

[whiterabbit]

I tried the labeling exercise throughout the day. I can continue tomorrow.

[warissem]

Good morning

Great, I am waiting for your feedback.

Warissem

[whiterabbit]

Some observations:

• At times, labeling is easy. Especially, when there's not much happening around me; like after waking up.
• At times, labeling is hard. When I'm in the kitchen preparing food, taking out dishes, opening the fridge, ... there's so much happening in quick succession that I can't keep up with labeling, and frequently mislabel. There is concentration though.
• Sound, color, and sensation are the three labelings cycled through a lot. Smell and taste are rarely recognized.
• Thought, when it happens, seems to be less recognized. It either happens so fast that I don't notice it amongst the other labelings, or it lasts so long, that I forget about labeling and later "wake up" to that I was thinking.
• Labeling seems to keep me in a state of peace and concentration. Sensations that might otherwise trigger me, like certain sounds or thoughts, don't. The focus is kept on the labeling.