Hesitancy and control rule me

[mugunghwa]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I am attached to a story narrative about myself. I re-tell this story again and again based on memories, expectations and a self-imposed future that I want. I am aware that this is not the way to live.

What are you looking for at LU?
Being in control and not allowing things to be has plagued me since I was a child. Intellectually, I know that knowing one can have complete control over themselves or others yet I continue to try. It is causing me much suffering. I know if I stripped that away, I would be able to trust myself. Sometimes, I mananged to strip a piece off, only for me to become fearful and grasp onto things to gain control again. But I know that control is an illusion. I am looking to trust myself and allow things to be.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Accountability and a sense of direction. Doing this alone could make me become easy on myself and not ask the questions that need asking, going into avoidance. The right prompt could lead to a breakthrough. Without a guide, perhaps I would even be tempted to give up or not be entirely honest with my answers.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I am spiritual and since I was a child, I’ve had a thirst for inquiry. In my twenties, I went through a time that completely erased my life and I had to start again from scratch which led me to spirituality.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[poppyseed]

Hi mugunghwa (Is that what you want me to call you?)
Welcome to Liberation Unleashed😊! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[mugunghwa]

Hello Rali,

Yes - you may call me Mugunghwa for now. Thank you for the warm welcome. I have read through the FAQs and understand how to respond to questions. I am ready to start :)
My timezone is GMT.

Love,
Mugunghwa

[poppyseed]

Hi Mugunghwa

My timezone is GMT.

Great! I am GMT+2 so no big difference :)

I am ready to start :)

Awesome! First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[mugunghwa]

Hi Rali :)

These questions were quite tough to answer

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

Things outside of me will continue to exist, but I will no longer have attachment to them or identity with them. I will be able to observe without forming judgements, preferences and expectations. Perhaps I will be more at peace….or see myself as ‘peace’? So I am ‘peace’, not someone who is relying on something external to make me feel peaceful.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I honestly have no expectations. I can ‘think’ what these possible expectations may be, but I want to let go of having expectations with this. I am also not sure if one can expect something to happen because that would mean attaching myself to an outcome outside of me.

3. What do you want not to happen?

To feel numb or empty.

4. What are you hoping for?

To not only maintain awareness but to ‘be’ awareness. If that is such a thing. Also clarity about who ‘i’ am. To observe and let things fall away from me without grasping tightly onto them.

5. What is missing?

Knowing and seeing who I am without being clouded by my experiences and my perception of how these experiences have 'shaped' me.

Love
Mugunghwa

[poppyseed]

Hi Mugunghwa,
Thank you for your honest reply! Sometimes it can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe.

These questions were quite tough to answer

The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some idea about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it is supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

2. I honestly have no expectations. I can ‘think’ what these possible expectations may be, but I want to let go of having expectations with this. I am also not sure if one can expect something to happen because that would mean attaching myself to an outcome outside of me.

Ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. The rest of the expectations - it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary.

3. What do you want not to happen?

To feel numb or empty.

Like I said, it’s just a shift of perception. How can an illusion have experiences/lack of them? An illusion is an illusion. It has never existed and it never will…but more about it later.

Things outside of me will continue to exist, but I will no longer have attachment to them or identity with them… attaching myself to an outcome outside of me… To not only maintain awareness but to ‘be’ awareness… Knowing and seeing who I am without being clouded by my experiences and my perception of how these experiences have 'shaped' me.

I see a lot of unclarity and confusion here so let’s just start:
Now what comes up when it is read that there is no self, never has been, and never will be? If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything
Love
Rali

[mugunghwa]

Now what comes up when it is read that there is no self, never has been, and never will be? If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything

When I read “there is no self” I see darkness but then feel a release in my chest…it’s almost a warm feeling there. To look for the I, I have the urge to close my eyes and look for something or someone but it’s impossible for me to do this. I'm not coming up with anything. While I was typing, I looked down at my hands, I felt the smoothness of the keyboard beneath my fingers and immediately wanted to run my hands over it to feel something there. I had a thought that the “I” is made up of physical parts of me and the things I felt with those parts. I can feel the warmth radiating from the laptop as I’m typing and feel reassured that something is there to meet my touch… it feels comforting. When you say there is no doer, thinker etc I then think “but what is there then?” I see these things as separate from myself. As if I couldn’t possibly be a doer, thinker, experiencer. It’s only until I sit with it for a few minutes I can see myself being these things. I am witnessing these sensations beneath my fingertips. But this wasn’t my first thought at all.

[poppyseed]

Hi Mugunghwa

When I read “there is no self” I see darkness but then feel a release in my chest…While I was typing, I looked down at my hands, I felt the smoothness of the keyboard beneath my fingers and immediately wanted to run my hands over it to feel something there. I had a thought that the “I” is made up of physical parts of me and the things I felt with those parts. I can feel the warmth radiating from the laptop as I’m typing and feel reassured that something is there to meet my touch… it feels comforting. When you say there is no doer, thinker etc I then think “but what is there then?” I see these things as separate from myself. As if I couldn’t possibly be a doer, thinker, experiencer. It’s only until I sit with it for a few minutes I can see myself being these things. I am witnessing these sensations beneath my fingertips. But this wasn’t my first thought at all.

So, you see the self mostly as the owner of the body and sensations, is that correct?

Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what color they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what color they ACTUALLY are!

I'm sure that you will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.
Direct or Actual Experience is:
Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's color, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what do they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, color(sight), smell, taste and sensation:

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Color labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Arising thought about an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
Please answer all questions in blue, but if you see a "?" that I might have missed pease answer these as well. Please don't forget to use the quote function for clarity.
Love
R

[mugunghwa]

Hello Rali

Here are my answers following the exercise

So, you see the self mostly as the owner of the body and sensations, is that correct?

Yes that is correct

I'm sure that you will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, Right?

Yes.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Yes, this is clear

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?)

An apple would be just a label. If I did not know the name of it, I would just describe how this object looks, tastes, feels, smells.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

I think there is no apple here apart from a collection of senses that make up the actual experience of an apple (colour, smell, touch/feel, taste)...

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Apple cannot be found in actual experience as it’s a label stored in our thoughts from learning about what an apple looks, smells, tastes etc like. But the sensations that make up an apple can be found in actual experience…


Love
Mugunghwa

[poppyseed]

Hi Mugunghwa

An apple would be just a label. If I did not know the name of it, I would just describe how this object looks, tastes, feels, smells…
… Apple cannot be found in actual experience as it’s a label stored in our thoughts from learning about what an apple looks, smells, tastes etc like. But the sensations that make up an apple can be found in actual experience…

OK, there is some truth in this… Yes “apple” is just a label, but what is an object? What you see hopefully in your DE - when looking at an “apple” - is a colour and a thought describing it (“apple”). The same description/label (“apple”) is used for other categories of DE like specific tasting, smelling, and sensing (there’s no hearing with this label) that in the past have appeared together with this seeing in one combination or another. But does an inherent material object (“apple”) exist in DE with characteristics of smell, taste, colour and sensation, OR it is just the same label/description for specific DE’s that might or might not appear together (sensing, smelling, seeing and tasting happening at the same time or not)? Also, do seeing, smelling, tasting, and sensing “apple” depend on each other in some way or they just appear simultaneously (sometimes) and independently? What binds experiences and their name together? Can experiences exist without the label?
It's very important to have clarity on this so spend as much time as need on this.
Love
Rali

[mugunghwa]

Hi Rali,

I have taken some time to respond to these questions. For a split second I feel like I have clarity, then it goes away quickly and my mind feels muddy.

But does an inherent material object (“apple”) exist in DE with characteristics of smell, taste, colour and sensation, OR it is just the same label/description for specific DE’s that might or might not appear together (sensing, smelling, seeing and tasting happening at the same time or not)?

So…no, an “apple” does not exist in DE with these characteristics. It is just the same label for specific DEs that might or might not appear together. If one of the characteristics of an “apple” was not experienced (i.e., its scent), we might still be tempted to label it as an apple, since the other characteristics (colour, taste) still fit the label of an “apple”. But we cannot know for sure that it is an ‘apple’ until we have directly experienced ALL the characteristics …If we say that the apple exists without some of these sensations/characteristics then, I think, we would be referring to only the label of an apple, not the apple we are/or aren’t directly experiencing. Sorry, I’ve lost my train of thought and I think I may be over complicating things. I think that the material object exists separately from its characteristics…

Also, do seeing, smelling, tasting, and sensing “apple” depend on each other in some way or they just appear simultaneously (sometimes) and independently?

To experience an “apple” then the seeing, smelling, and tasting of it depend on each other to fully experience the apple. Sure, we could just experience the scent of it and guess that it is an apple, but how can we be so sure that it’s not something else? I still don’t feel like I have clarity of this. One moment I think that the smell, taste of an apple appear independently, but at the same time, I can also see that they all depend on each other to form the experience of ‘an apple’.

What binds experiences and their name together?

Our thoughts and the labels we have for material objects bind these experiences and their name together. These experiences exist on their own otherwise.

Can experiences exist without the label?

Yes. experiences do exist without the label….because such experiences existed before a label is attached to them.

Love
Mugunghwa

[poppyseed]

Hi Mugunghwa
No worries, take as much time as you need but if you will take more than a couple of days let me know so I don’t think you’ve given up :)

If one of the characteristics of an “apple” was not experienced (i.e., its scent), we might still be tempted to label it as an apple, since the other characteristics (colour, taste) still fit the label of an “apple”. But we cannot know for sure that it is an ‘apple’ until we have directly experienced ALL the characteristics…
...To experience an “apple” then the seeing, smelling, and tasting of it depend on each other to fully experience the apple. Sure, we could just experience the scent of it and guess that it is an apple, but how can we be so sure that it’s not something else? I still don’t feel like I have clarity of this. One moment I think that the smell, taste of an apple appear independently, but at the same time, I can also see that they all depend on each other to form the experience of ‘an apple’.

I see a lot of assumptions here which suggests thought content, right? Here we are not interested in thought content but only seeing(colour), tasting (taste), sensing (sensation), smelling (smell), hearing (sound), arising of thought (but not thought content/what the thought is about). How can you be sure that a material object named “apple” exists from your DE point of view? You experience the colour, smell, taste, and sensation and you ASSUME that an object named “apple” exists inherently. What makes you 100 % sure in your assumption that this is true if you have to rely ONLY on the 5 senses? Is it the memory (thought content) that they have appeared together in the past? Remember, here we are not taking anything for granted, we are testing all of these previously made assumptions, that have been accepted as truths. So what is an object from DE point of view (5 senses)? It is something that can be touched, smelled, tasted, heard, and/or seen, right? Isn’t an "object" then just a LABEL in general that groups and describes specific combination of any of the five senses? Does the object then exist inherently (on its own) or does it just appear as thought content/label?

Love
Rali

[mugunghwa]

Hello Rali,

Of course, I'll let you know if I need more time to answer.

How can you be sure that a material object named “apple” exists from your DE point of view?

Well, I can’t assume that it is an apple that I am smelling, seeing, tasting. I can’t assume it is anything apart for the senses I am experiencing at that moment.

What makes you 100 % sure in your assumption that this is true if you have to rely ONLY on the 5 senses? Is it the memory (thought content) that they have appeared together in the past?

I can never be 100% sure in my assumptions just from relying on the 5 senses. The 5 senses alone do not make up anything. It is an association based on my thoughts and past experiences (from a memory) that lead me to making that assumption.

So what is an object from DE point of view (5 senses)? It is something that can be touched, smelled, tasted, heard, and/or seen, right? Isn’t an "object" then just a LABEL in general that groups and describes specific combination of any of the five senses?

An object is just something that can be smelled, touched, heard, tasted or seen. There is no name for anything in direct experience. An object (the term object) doesn’t exist in DE. Something is physically there because I can touch it, but it’s not called….anything. It's not even a thing. The label exists in my head as a thought, based on memory and assumptions….

Does the object then exist inherently (on its own) or does it just appear as thought content/label?

The object appears as thought content or a label. Things that I assume to be objects are just things I can touch, smell, see and so on.

Love
Mugunghwa

[poppyseed]

Hi Mugunghwa
Good looking!

An object is just something that can be smelled, touched, heard, tasted or seen. There is no name for anything in direct experience. An object (the term object) doesn’t exist in DE. Something is physically there because I can touch it, but it’s not called….anything. It's not even a thing. The label exists in my head as a thought, based on memory and assumptions….

I’m sorry to be so pedantic, but this is important for our further investigation…
Is it the term "object", or the actual object that does not exist in DE? Where is this object in your DE? Is there anything to be smelled, touched, heard, etc outside of the senses without thought content? Or is just smell-ING (verb) labelled “object’s SMELL” (describing particular smell), sensing labelled “object’s FEEL” (describing particular sensation), etc. and assumption (thought content) that that an object with such characteristics exists in the first place? Is the smell separate from the object? Is the smell separate from smelling? How is the smelling of no smell experienced? Is there a line where the smelling ends and the smell begins, and even further a second line demarcating where the object begins? Where are these lines? Where is the smelling starting? Is there a smell-er there on the other side of the object? Or is it just language where an object and subject exist in the description of what is happening (action)? When you say: "The tree is growing leaves" who is doing the growing?
Similar with seeing…
Look at the screen where you are reading this. Is the screen outside of seeing of it? Where is the line which shows that the seeing ends and the screen begins? Look back from where the seeing is coming. Is there a seer there?
Sensing…
Sit on a chair and close your eyes. Are there two sensations – one of you bum and one of the chair, or just one sensation labelled “bum on a chair” or just “chair”? Where is the line that separates the sensation from the chair? Is the sensation separate from sensing? Who or what does the sensing? LOOK closely and with curiosity EACH of these questions.
Love
Rali

[mugunghwa]

Hi Rali :)

I will need more time to answer the rest of the questions (perhaps just one more day) and do the exercise. But I have posted the ones I did manage to answer. What has thrown me is the question "Is there anything to be smelled, touched, heard, etc outside of the senses without thought content?" I need to sit with this question for a bit longer along with the others.

Is it the term "object", or the actual object that does not exist in DE?

So neither the term “object” or the actual object exist in DE.

Where is this object in your DE?

The object is in my thoughts.

Speak tomorrow

Love
Mugunghwa