I am

[suzana]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
that there is no separate self ...separate from existence...there is no entity as me...it is an illlusion ...there is only existence creating the forms ...appearing forms...to see the existence in everything...in myself ..in others ...me and others are the same existence

What are you looking for at LU?
awakening....experiencing no separate feelings.... peace in my mind..and happiness in my life...being free of worries...identification...this all plays around our identity.....I don't want it anymore....I am fed up...freedom...

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
pointing out to this liberation...guiding me through some obstacles that I don't see...mirroring me....asking the questions which will open up the experience of no separate self...or to find where I am still tuck

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
advaita...zen...budhism...meditations...inquiries...

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[AwayKen127]

Hi Suzana (or what may I call you?) I'm Jeff. If you would like me to guide you, I request that you respond daily or at least tell me if there will be a delay in your response. This inquiry requires focused attention. I also want you to be aware of the process. I will ask questions and propose exercises, and I ask that you answer honestly from your direct experience before thoughts arise. We will not be inquiring into truth, reality, or anything metaphysical. Is that agreeable? Shall we begin?

Kindly,
Jeff

[suzana]

Hi Jeff,
I didn’t know that the conversation is here in forum. I was waiting for the mail.
Yes I am ready.
So it is always here? In the box? Is it possible to write through mails sugari@gmx.de ??
Greetings

[AwayKen127]

Hi Suzana,
The conversation is always in the Forum here. You might find a button near the upper left corner (there is a gear symbol) where the drop-down menu allows you to Subscribe. Then you will get email notifications when there is a response and you will get a link to the conversation here.

Let's start with this:
Coloured Socks

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Regards,
Jeff

[suzana]

I am absolutely clear about this. :-)

[AwayKen127]

When answering the questions below, it's best to use the Quote function above so I know which question you're answering. Here's some information on how to use it:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Observing thoughts

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts.  Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

What are the thoughts made of?
Where are they coming from and going to? 
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts? 
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? 

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

[suzana]

What are the thoughts made of? OF NO THING
Where are they coming from and going to? FROM THE SPACE TO THE SPACE
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? NO
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?NO
Can you predict your next thought? NO
pleasant thoughts? NO
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?NO
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?SOMETIMES WE CAN DELIBERATELY CHOOSE TO THINK POSITIVE OR IN ONE SPECIAL WAY… IF I THINK OF SOMETHING ACTIVLY … BUT BY OBLY OBSERVING IT …NO
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? NO

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? NO
Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows IT SEEMS SO
GOOD NIGHT HERE IS VERY LATE THANK YOU
KINDLY S DID YOU CALL ME ON WENDSDAY FROM USA ?

[AwayKen127]

Hi Suzana,

I didn't call you. I don't have your phone number. I can email or DM you, but only through this site since I don't have the addresses. I'm not an administrator on this site.

Here's how I use the Quote function: I I highlight and copy the passage I'm quoting, then I click on the Quote button and the hypertext brackets appear. Then I press Control V to paste the text. It automatically is inserted between the hypertext brackets. (I use a PC running Windows, not a Mac.)

What are the thoughts made of? OF NO THING

If thoughts are made of no thing, how do you know they're there?

Where are they coming from and going to? FROM THE SPACE TO THE SPACE

Do you mean to say "I don't know", or is there some other meaning?

SOMETIMES WE CAN DELIBERATELY CHOOSE TO THINK POSITIVE OR IN ONE SPECIAL WAY… IF I THINK OF SOMETHING ACTIVLY

Please tell me more about that--give an example.

IT SEEMS SO

Let's look at "it seems so". Please describe, in microscopic detail, what "seeming" consists of.

Have a good night!
Jeff

[suzana]

Morning Jeff,

If thoughts are made of no thing, how do you know they're there?

i dont see them..dont touch them...not with any senses....i notice there are there..they appear in my head ...not even my head..there are there..i notice the sudden appearence...i can not show to anybody..the dont exist...still there si thinking appearing...it is a perception of this thinking how i notice it...

Do you mean to say "I don't know", or is there some other meaning?

yes...such as i dont know...nevertheless i can percieve the spaciuousness around me...in me..thats why ..space..but the correct direction i dont know...

Please tell me more about that--give an example.

if i want to make some lecture..i have to prepare myself and i think of a inhalt...what is my topic..waht is relevant..waht not...how to put it in words...planning...sequencees of thoughts...i will this at firts...than i see something and than i am redirecting my thinking and olanning in to the next step...clearer??

Let's look at "it seems so". Please describe, in microscopic detail, what "seeming" consists of.

it is maybe my thought which thinks yes there is a coherence or logilcal sequences here...like in te example before if i am directing it ...i make following thaughst because i create them SOMETIMES..no i am insecure if i am only think like this..i meen..i can follow certan to do plan...for example...now i am going to the market...plus i am going to by...what i am cooking today..ok...so i ness this and that..ok if i need this it wouls suit that too..this one is tofar away...so i need some alternative...so i will to go instead....etc....like this...it is not only appearing in my mind...but i am creating them istnt it? S.

[AwayKen127]

Good afternoon, Suzana!

I'm going to be asking you a lot frustrating, nitpicking questions because there are subtle beliefs that need to be seen as illusions. These beliefs may seem irrelevant, but they are all interrelated.

.still there is thinking appearing...it is a perception of this thinking how i notice it...

Is this actually saying anything? Is "perception" an additional step that needs to happen after thinking? Is "noticing" an extra step? Or is there just thinking?

...nevertheless i can percieve the spaciuousness around me...in me..thats why ..space..but the correct direction i dont know...

Before a thought or label arises, what is this spaciousness? Direct experience is: seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, feeling, and thought (but not the content of thought). If something is not experienced, you can't be aware of it. So, is "spaciousness" one of these sensations in experience? Which one? Is there another part to it as well?

if i want to make some lecture..i have to prepare myself and i think of a inhalt...what is my topic..waht is relevant..waht not...how to put it in words...planning...sequencees of thoughts...i will this at firts...than i see something and than i am redirecting my thinking and olanning in to the next step...clearer??

It sounds like you have the idea that a "thinker" is "deciding" what to think. Here's an exercise for deciding:
Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down. 
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on. 

Watch like a hawk. 

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled? 
Does a thought control it? 
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately. 
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

i create them [thoughts] SOMETIMES

You seem to be making a distinction between thoughts that appear unannounced and thoughts that are preceded by another thought. If there is a thought, "I need to make a plan" and then other thoughts fill in the details, how did the thought "I need to make a plan" arise? Was there a thought before that, "I need to make a plan to make a plan"? And before that, "I need to make a plan to make a plan to make a plan"? Or are there just thoughts, and other thoughts that claim there is a connection between them?

Warmly,
Jeff

[suzana]

Is this actually saying anything? Is "perception" an additional step that needs to happen after thinking? Is "noticing" an extra step? Or is there just thinking?

there are not extra steps..it is simultaneous...there is a thinking...the question was how do I get that thinking is there...I notice the presence of thoughts ...like I see the car driving in front of me...and driving away...only that I don't see my thoughts...I can either not say I feel them...I am aware of their sudden presence or absence...but there is a thinking only...no extra needed steps. connected with your second question I would say...no senses ..though thought that there is a thought

Before a thought or label arises, what is this spaciousness? Direct experience is: seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, feeling, and thought (but not the content of thought). If something is not experienced, you can't be aware of it. So, is "spaciousness" one of these sensations in experience? Which one? Is there another part to it as well?

.
it is feeling of spaciousness

It sounds like you have the idea that a "thinker" is "deciding" what to think. Here's an exercise for deciding:
Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

i am not controlling its movements

Does a thought control it?

no

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

its weird..there is no direct connection bettween my thoughts and movements...like some other force is doing this...it is my hand ..my movements..specially when I am turning it up and down quicker there is no controller at all...

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

when I am doing it very slow..there is slight direction..the feeling of directing it...but it is not...there is no immediate reaction to the thought

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

it is automatically chosen ...its not me who is choosing it ..is it an accident ...nobody is choosing ..no intention..

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

no

[suzana]

You seem to be making a distinction between thoughts that appear unannounced and thoughts that are preceded by another thought. If there is a thought, "I need to make a plan" and then other thoughts fill in the details, how did the thought "I need to make a plan" arise? Was there a thought before that, "I need to make a plan to make a plan"? And before that, "I need to make a plan to make a plan to make a plan"? Or are there just thoughts, and other thoughts that claim there is a connection between them?

at the beginning they only arise ..yes..I don't know how to call it...just thoughts..how do they appear...I see that I am not doing it...but this is the weird I meant before...it just happens ...shit happens :-) :-o
oh my god...
yes there are only thoughts and other thoughts that claim that there is connection

kindly

[AwayKen127]

Good work, Suzana. How does it feel to see that there is no thinker/decider/chooser/controller?
Jeff

[suzana]

How does it feel to see that there is no thinker/decider/chooser/controller?

thanks
in a way weird...strange...what is going on than...who is moving the life? like a sick gut feeling
but unleashed at the same moment...it is so much falling in the water then...trying...doing...wanting...worring ..
i have to marinate in this....mind blowing anyway...

take care ..(in the same moment ...thought...you don't have to do nothing about take care ..it is happening any way...:-)
s.

[AwayKen127]

i have to marinate in this....mind blowing anyway...

Are you okay to proceed or do you need a little break? Are you feeling fear?

Hugs,
Jeff