Going deeper

[wgiruzzi926]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
What I think of as the self is just that ... thought (and feeling and sensation). "Bill" is no more real than a character in a story or movie. "Bill" only came to be because I grew up in a cultural of separate identities and a belief in "self"

What are you looking for at LU?
To go deeper in my understanding of the truth. It's interesting to me ... the more that I understand, the less I feel like I really need someone to guide me. Like even that illusory "I", I don't think I need. For many years, I identified as a deep thinker. Now, I'd rather not think, not that I think there's anything wrong with it, it just doesn't look to me like I need it. In spring of 2020, I had a brain bleed, then in spring of 2021, I awoke one more to a massive panic attack. I applied for this program last year sometime and was understandably denied. Today, I can't believe how well I'm doing. I rarely have a panic attack and when I do, I just allow it. Used to freak me out. A couple of days ago, I was driving home from a doctor's appointment and I started having a panic attack. There was this moment of recognition of what it was, and I said to myself, "Oh well. There's some thoughts, feelings and physical sensations going on," and I just continued to drive. Got home and within 10 minutes, it had moved on. A year ago, that would have been devastating to me and it would have led to one panic attack after another after another. The reason I'm writing all of this is I've clearly gotten better. I've healed ... and ... I have no idea how it happened. Yes, I worked with a lot of people and I can't say what part any of the work had in my healing. It's sort of like if you put a bandaid on a cut, it facilitates the healing. But the bandaid isn't actually healing the cut. I'm certainly not healing the cut. Healing is just happening by design. That's more or less the way the healing of my mental health looks to me. All my studies facilitated my healing, but how I actually healed seemed to happen without me.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To explore with someone, to be challenged, to question, to see what's still blind to me. As you can tell from my last answer, I've come a long way in my understanding, and while it seems like I need a third party less and less, which I think is a good thing. I still find that having a separate set of eyes and ears is very helpful.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Oh boy! I'm going to be 53 in a week and I can't remember when I wasn't seeking. With regard to inquiry, I really first experienced it in 1994 when I participated in program called the Landmark Forum. I don't participate with Landmark anymore. I've studied non-duality and something called the Three Principles for last several years. I self-published a book called A Life Worth Living back in 2009. Not sure it would be the book I would write today, but it was my best attempt at touching truth given my understanding at the time. In terms of spiritual practices, well, I just started meditating about a month ago. It doesn't really occur for me as a spiritual practice. I have nothing against spirituality. I do think I'm spiritual. It's more that I just try not to make meditating into anything. In other words, once or twice a day, I sit down and I meditate for 20 or so minutes. During that time, I'm not trying to do anything and whatever happens, happens in those 20 minutes. I'm not trying to get better at meditating. I'm not trying to see something. The typical internal voice comes in saying, "Are you doing it right? Are you quiet enough? Still enough? Are you getting benefit out of this?" and I do my best to ignore all that. I meditate. I it quietly. Whatever happens, happens. Whatever doesn't happen, doesn't happen.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[AwayKen127]

Hello Bill, my name is Jeff. I can be your guide if you like. Your story appeals greatly to me, probably because mine is very much like yours.

It sounds to me like you've seen through the illusion of the separate self and you aren't even bothered by thoughts any more. So is it suffering, or curiosity, or what, that brings you here? Is there a burning question?

Regards,
Jeff

[wgiruzzi926]

Hey Jeff,

I appreciate the offer and would love for you to be my guide. I think it's curiosity Jeff and I think there's still suffering. I sit here thinking of what to ask you and whatever comes up, seems to disappear in an instant. It may just be a habit of seeking. It may just be insecurity about whether I've actually seen the truth, whether I'm actually "done" so to speak.

Thoughts?

[AwayKen127]

Hi Bill,

I think there's still suffering

Please say more about that. After reading about your panic attack, I got the impression that there's no suffering. How does suffering show up now?
Jeff

[wgiruzzi926]

Hey Jeff,

I think that points to a question I have. What's the difference between suffering and just feeling bad, anxious, depressed, whatever? I am much much better but I still wake up feeling awful. I know enough to get up and just start living, and like I said, it's much better than it was even 3 months ago.

I once asked a teacher, "Are you telling me that there's nothing about this that is intended to help me?" His answer was "No. It's just the truth. It doesn't help you." If this doesn't help, then why are we here, why is there this forum of what I assume are thousands of people like me, like you asking these questions. Why do we care about suffering? Why do we talk about a space that is love, but not love as a feeling?

One of my "favorites" still is, "When a bad feeling arises, just let it be, allow it ... but ... you can't allow it in order to get rid of it." I've never been able to tell if I'm allowing something OR allowing it in order to get rid of it. It doesn't even really make sense to me.

Well, I guess I did have questions :)

[AwayKen127]

Hi Bill,

What's the difference between suffering and just feeling bad, anxious, depressed, whatever?

Those are all labels. But suffering has the added feature of resistance, which is just another label/thought.

When a bad feeling arises, just let it be, allow it ... but ... you can't allow it in order to get rid of it.

Trying to get rid of the "bad" feeling is resisting what is, which is suffering.

It's more that I just try not to make meditating into anything. In other words, once or twice a day, I sit down and I meditate for 20 or so minutes. During that time, I'm not trying to do anything and whatever happens, happens in those 20 minutes. I'm not trying to get better at meditating. I'm not trying to see something. The typical internal voice comes in saying, "Are you doing it right? Are you quiet enough? Still enough? Are you getting benefit out of this?" and I do my best to ignore all that. I meditate. I it quietly. Whatever happens, happens. Whatever doesn't happen, doesn't happen.

And so it is with life. Whatever happens, happens. Whatever doesn't happen, doesn't happen. Is it possible for something that has happened not to have happened? Is it possible for something that didn't happen to have happened? Can Bill make anything happen?

Here's an exercise:

Raising Hand Exercise

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.   

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise? 
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing? 
What is it that is controlling the hand? 
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located? 
Can anything be found that makes the hand move? 
How is the decision made?

Let me know what you find!
Jeff

[wgiruzzi926]

I can't find a controller or a thinker. It's just stuff happening. I don't know who is deciding, or how it's decided.

For a lot of my life, I've admired people who were successful and looked like they were in control - of their actions, of the results they produced. I never thought that more and more it would look to me that no control is where it's at. I'm not saying that like it's a good strategy to produce results or will make you more successful in life or anything like that. I'm actually not even saying it to feel better or happier or content. All of that would be an attempt to exercise control.

I've written and re-written what follows here a couple of times. This is a familiar place for me in this inquiry. I write something and then at some point, I think to myself, "Well, that's not true" and I pull it back. Then something else comes and I express it and then pull it back. I think I want a solid place, a solid foundation to live from, and then I think, "Who is it that wants a solid foundation?" At some point, my head is spinning because yes, I want to know who I am, I want to live grounded in that, and there's thoughts, actions, doing, etc. happening.

And by no means do I think that this inquiry is about escaping thoughts, actions and doing.

Inevitably, though, I'll get tired from all this thinking, and I'll cast it all aside and say, "F### it. Just go live your life."

Hmmmm.... something fresh coming in. I wonder if the point isn't to be quiet, live in the stillness, let go of the illusion of control 100% of the time. It's to know who you are AND go live your life, think, do, act, live in illusions, and then when it occurs to me ... come home. Maybe the point isn't a solid foundation. It's the movement.

[AwayKen127]

I think I want a solid place, a solid foundation to live from, and then I think, "Who is it that wants a solid foundation?" At some point, my head is spinning because yes, I want to know who I am, I want to live grounded in that, and there's thoughts, actions, doing, etc. happening.

Life does not offer what you yearn for. There is no ground. Bill is not going to find out who he is. If you continue down this path, you will have to surrender to mystery 100%, with no guarantees. Is that what you want? Would you rather find out without preconceptions or conditions, or try to figure it out?

[AwayKen127]

This video is relevant: https://fb.watch/fH2j9NUwOm/

[wgiruzzi926]

Surrendering to the mystery is what I want with no guarantees, preconceptions or conditions.

[AwayKen127]

Hi Bill,
Here's an exercise:
Stream Exercise

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high. Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where Bill autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose, etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which Bill is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

Was this exercise useful to you? Did you see anything you haven't seen before?

Regards,
Jeff

[AwayKen127]

FYI, Bill, I'll be offline Friday through Monday.
Jeff

[wgiruzzi926]

Thanks for the heads up about being offline.

1. For this question, I'm trying not to just give the "right" answer. It actually raises more questions for me than answers, which seems good. In my job, I coach people on leadership. The definition of leadership that we use is creating a result that looks impossible to you or the people you lead. One of the things I talk about is how when all the forces, the conversations people are having are going in the direction of "This can't be done," and And the leader declares the impossible possible, and starts moving the conversation in the other direction. I'm not sharing this to dispute the question. I still don't think there's a Bill that autonomously intervenes into life, but in those instances the elements do seem to be moving in the opposite direction.

Even in what I dealt with this past two years in terms of my health. Last year, at this time, I was aching to die. It looked like all the elements were pointing me in that direction and somehow, I'm here. I got better. Do I think there was a Bill that autonomously intervened? No.

What that makes me wonder about is are the elements really neutral? Or are they pointed toward life, growth, health? On one hand, that doesn't seem to make sense because it implies a good and bad, but at the same time, water only runs downhill.

2. I can't find anyone anywhere. Currently, I work from home and today is the first day I wore jeans instead of shorts. When I got up, "cold" was there and the thought, "Wear jeans," arose in my awareness. There was no autonomous being making a choice.

3. I'm assuming you mean "actually" responsible, i.e. there are all sorts of things that people hold me responsible for - my boss, my co-workers, my wife, but there isn't anything I can find, for which Bill is responsible and that includes the things that others hold me responsible for.

Very useful. Thanks

[AwayKen127]

I still don't think there's a Bill that autonomously intervenes into life, but in those instances the elements do seem to be moving in the opposite direction.

The judgment that the elements seem to be moving in the opposite direction is a thought. All thoughts arise out of a fundamental wish to understand and control. See if this is true in your actual experience. Are you building a mental world that you hope will be knowable and predictable? Where you can have the fantasy of control? That world, where most people live, is a very poor substitute for the direct experience of aliveness. That world, where most people live, is suffering. It also requires vigilance, which is exhausting. Why not relax into life knowing that it will be exactly what it is, and could not be otherwise? Let any thoughts about it be seen as empty thoughts, nothing more.

What that makes me wonder about is are the elements really neutral? Or are they pointed toward life, growth, health?

See above. Wouldn't it be lovely if comforting thoughts were true? If there were some solid ground to stand on? Life, however, is no particular way, no matter what thoughts seem to say about it.

3. I'm assuming you mean "actually" responsible, i.e. there are all sorts of things that people hold me responsible for - my boss, my co-workers, my wife, but there isn't anything I can find, for which Bill is responsible and that includes the things that others hold me responsible for.

Is the stream responsible for flowing here or there? In the woods, are the animals responsible for what they do or don't do? It's only in the mentally-constructed social world that one can talk about responsibility. Life doesn't have that property.

There's an important piece about leadership here, and I'd like to know how this lands for you. A lot of "leadership" is self-serving. What we're doing here is seeing that there is no self to serve. When that is clear, leadership can respond appropriately. Have I got it right?

Jeff

[wgiruzzi926]

Wow, we got here fast. What I mean is I've gotten to this point many times with this inquiry. It almost always gets to this place and I feel lost. So I'm going to do my best to, as succinctly as possible, tell you what shows up.

I see that I'm attempting to build a mental world that will be knowable and predictable. I can even see that I want the fantasy of control. It's like this Jeff. I'm not saying I've peeled back all the layers of thought, feeling, etc. But I've peeled it back pretty well. I've had or think I've had that direct experience of aliveness, and the thoughts, feelings, sensations? They don't stop. So the best I've come to is to know the truth AND live with what's showing up - if what's showing up are thoughts of creating a mental world that is knowable and predictable, then I do that knowing that it's an illusion.

So my question back would be this: "Why not relax into life knowing that it will be exactly what it is, and could not be otherwise?" Why isn't that a mental world that I hope will be knowable and predictable? Why isn't that another strategy to have a semblance of control?

I know that what you are pointing to is before language, and to use language is always going to create a box; it's never going to quite be what you are pointing to. I also know that language is what we've got. But isn't part of what is that we have language and we use language and we become trapped in the mental constructs that we create as language. Yes, squirrels, beavers, birds, etc. don't seem to have language. At least not like we humans do. Why don't we relax into that as what is?

I'm really not trying to be a jerk here and I hope it's not coming off that way. I have bumped up against this so many times and if there's something beyond it, before it, then I'd like to discover it.

"Life, however, is no particular way, no matter what thoughts seem to say about it." It's no particular way? Okay so, you say, "The world, where most people live, is suffering." That implies that for most people life is a particular way - suffering. And if life is suffering - a particular way - for most people, the implication is there is another particular way that life could be or actually is - relaxed into and exactly what it is.

With regard to leadership, I actually don't see leadership as self-serving. Don't get me wrong, when I lead, coach whatever, self-serving thoughts arise. For me though, leadership isn't about the leader; it's about creating whatever the object of creation is. So, a person makes some toast. Chances are the person doesn't make, making some toast about them. It's just something they do. That the way I see leadership. There's an end that some have deemed as valuable, and in the space of that end, a creative problem arises. Same as if you decide you want toast, the creative problem making toast arises. Chances are that for you today making toast doesn't take a lot of mental energy, but ask a 3 or 4 year old to make toast? Point is because you don't really have to think about doesn't mean there isn't a creative problem to be solved. Said another way, leadership is impersonal. It's no more personal than a dam that a beaver builds is to the beaver. The dam is just something a beaver does. Making toast is just something a person does.