Show me the truth

[Meredith57]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? There is no separate self. It is simply an illusion, a thought-habit (a very persistent one) that arises through "I" thoughts - creating the sense of a (very convincing) separate me through a story about "me."

What are you looking for at LU? Guidance on the next steps. I am questioning reality often, seeing the arising and passing away of the "I" but still I get lost in it. I'm seeing how much of my spiritual practice has been based on continuing the delusion of "I" cloaked in spirituality. I want the truth.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? To help me see the truth. I am ready to give up the fairytale of enlightenment and simply want the truth of reality. Of course, it frightens me on one level - the fantasy of enlightenment felt so safe - but I see that was because it was "me enlightened" - not truth, more delusion. I think at this stage I need the guidance of someone who has already seen this.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I have been meditating for 24 years. Mostly Buddhist teachings (Tibetan and Theravadin) - in the latter years Advaita - self-inquiry: Who am I?...

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[poppyseed]

Hello Meredith
Welcome to Liberation Unleashed😊! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I can be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses that is actually here and now with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience. Through these means we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work, with each “experiment” we point/ask questions and you look at your own direct experience and answer with 100% honesty, right now, right here, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory. That would also means leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful. If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.

Love
R

[Meredith57]

Hello Rali,

Thank you so much for responding to my request.

Yes, I am ready to ditch all my spiritual teachings and everything I thought I knew - I can see how everything I was doing was really avoiding the whole point, to know the truth. It hurt at first to realize this, but I guess it's what was needed to bring me to this point.

Yes, I'm ready to start!

Thank you!

[poppyseed]

Hi Meredith
That’s great! Haven’t we all been there? I love your spirit and determination!
First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open. Here come your first questions:

1. What should be different when you realize there’s no separate self
2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this
3. What do you want not to happen?
4. What are you hoping for?

Please take your time with these, but for the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please take it but just let me know. I will do as well.

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually. Please watch the below 30 second video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ
Love
R

[Meredith57]

Hola Rali,

I watched the video and I have pondered these questions for the past few hours. Writing pages first in my journal and then narrowing it down to the essential points. I am with you on the intensity of wanting to stay with these questions daily. I am self-employed and have plenty of time to ponder these questions each day so no worries - there is nothing more important than what we are doing here.

1. What should be different when you realize there’s not a separate self?

The burden of being “me” is gone. The “need” to be someone/something. The pressure of “me” is gone. The suffering of “me” is no longer. In the absence of that suffering - peace. Not bliss. Not that I am suddenly the most charming person in the world... Just a quiet peace that comes from knowing what's true and what's not.


2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

Emptiness - not nothing, not the abyss, but in a seeing of how it all arises and comes apart. No attachment to it - but I don’t imagine it as totally disinterested either, because it’s really seeing how it all plays a part - like looking at it all from 10,000 feet - seeing how one thing affects another - like looking at the whole tapestry with a sense of appreciation and fascination. I also imagine times of laughter at the absurdity of how much we all believe in the role we are playing!

3. What do you want not to happen?

That I would still experience self-created suffering (not to be confused with discomfort or unpleasant conditions). I don’t see how that could happen if there is no separate self - but who knows - I’ve been deluding myself for so long with the fantasy of enlightenment I could be totally wrong on everything.

4. What are you hoping for?

The end of suffering (yes, a very Buddhist thing to say!). But I do believe (wrongly or rightly - I hope you will set me straight here!) all of my suffering is due to the belief in a separate self - so it would end.


I won't be unhappy if you pull apart every answer I have provided. I am being totally honest here and that might mean my answers are somewhat pollyanish - but they are what they are. I have to be honest.

With love,
Meredith

[poppyseed]

Hi Meredith
Thank you for your honesty! Nicely done!

The thing about expectations is that it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside.
T

he burden of being “me” is gone. The “need” to be someone/something. The pressure of “me” is gone. The suffering of “me” is no longer. In the absence of that suffering - peace. Not bliss. Not that I am suddenly the most charming person in the world... Just a quiet peace that comes from knowing what's true and what's not.

This tends to happen naturally…

Emptiness - not nothing, not the abyss, but in a seeing of how it all arises and comes apart. No attachment to it - but I don’t imagine it as totally disinterested either, because it’s really seeing how it all plays a part - like looking at it all from 10,000 feet - seeing how one thing affects another - like looking at the whole tapestry with a sense of appreciation and fascination. I also imagine times of laughter at the absurdity of how much we all believe in the role we are playing!

😊

That I would still experience self-created suffering (not to be confused with discomfort or unpleasant conditions). I don’t see how that could happen if there is no separate self - but who knows - I’ve been deluding myself for so long with the fantasy of enlightenment I could be totally wrong on everything.

There is usually some clean up time, where old beliefs will come up to be examined, but more about this later.

There is usually some clean up time, where old beliefs will come up to be examined, but more about this later.
The end of suffering (yes, a very Buddhist thing to say!). But I do believe (wrongly or rightly - I hope you will set me straight here!) all of my suffering is due to the belief in a separate self - so it would end.

I hope you will answer this one for yourself later…

Any problem with letting go of these hopes and expectations? Please let me know, though, if there is a particular one that you can’t
Now…
If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

[Meredith57]

Good morning,

I thought a lot about your questions yesterday afternoon, last night, this morning - while in activity and meditation.

“Any problem with letting go of these hopes and expectations? “

I am doing my best to let go of all expectations, I can see how utterly ridiculous it is to want to see the truth when I think I know what it looks like already - or at least what the result of it will look like? Even thinking I remotely know what it’s like, while I thought these were helpful clues being given, I can see how they have turned into roadblocks.

“Please let me know, though, if there is a particular one that you can’t”

I didn’t put this as one of my answers for #3 yesterday (“What do you not want to happen”) - it just hit me in my meditation this morning - a fear of losing kindness, generosity, of wanting to help. That doesn’t mean I would not go further wanting the truth, and if this had to go then so be it - but I wanted to mention it as it did have some fear behind it.

“If you look for the I, what is there?”

Emptiness, spaciousness, awareness - there is still hearing, but no hearer, still seeing no seer… A sense of wholeness, that everything is OK - without thinking it, it’s just a feeling that yes, this is what’s real. While there’s nothing to hold onto there, it’s ok, everything is OK.

It’s not a high excitement (which I don’t like) or anything on the other extreme - just easy, a sense of wonder and awe easing in and out, contentment.

“If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?”

Space, peace, ease. I kept asking this question as I made a pot of soup last night, lots of chopping, cleaning, stirring and each time I looked for the doer, even while doing was clearly happening, I felt more at ease. There was a deep sense of relaxation into what I was doing, no pressure, no rushing, no “me” at the end of it enjoying the delicious soup (and it was delicious!) - just doing for the sheer enjoying of doing.

I kept pondering this question as there was thinking, experiencing, decision-making, witnessing happening but I couldn’t find anyone.

The witness was an interesting one because that’s been used so much in spiritual practices that I’ve been involved in. “Be the witness to it all” - I didn’t even realize I was creating another someone - someone that witnesses - THE Witness. I think it would be more helpful to say “notice the witnessing - who is witnessing” - NO ONE is witnessing either.

These are all activities, actions, verbs which have implied someone is doing it - a trick of language that we fall in step with because it confirms the experience of a separate self.

I am so very grateful for your help!

[poppyseed]

Hi Meredith
It’s almost evening here 😊. What part of the world are you in (if you don’t mind me asking)?

I am doing my best to let go of all expectations, I can see how utterly ridiculous it is to want to see the truth when I think I know what it looks like already - or at least what the result of it will look like? Even thinking I remotely know what it’s like, while I thought these were helpful clues being given, I can see how they have turned into roadblocks.

Ultimately, yes, expectations are in the way of seeing clearly. The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. The rest are just stories about awakening. It is much more ordinary and simpler than these stories.

(“What do you not want to happen”)… a fear of losing kindness, generosity, of wanting to help. That doesn’t mean I would not go further wanting the truth, and if this had to go then so be it - but I wanted to mention it as it did have some fear behind it.

Let’s examine this carefully. Fear usually is there to protect us from harm. In this case it protects “you” from changing too much and losing your ”humanity”. But let’s be clear here… how can something that has never existed change? You said yourself that you don’t see a doer, thinker, etc, then what is going to change if “you” never did/said anything? Like you said “thinking, experiencing, decision-making, witnessing are happening” on their own. So why would these change all of a sudden, just because the "I" was seen as the illusion that it is? You probably believed in Santa when you were little. There was magic and joy, and love, and giving, and caring. When you realized that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa?

Please sit and examine this carefully. Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary
Love
R

[Meredith57]

Thank you again for pointing me in the right direction.

Yes, there is no person being kind - doing the “kinding.” And just like the Doer is not there, the doing still happens. And the decisions still happen even though there is no decision-maker, thinking without believing in the thinker.

“Please sit and examine this carefully. Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary”

But even that I was hanging onto it was exposing something. A bit of fear of wanting to hang onto the “good” parts of me - so people will like me. And who needs the approval of others? Little separate me - the one that’s not there! The delusion that keeps me chasing my tail!

I started to write down all the parts of me that need to be let go of - here’s an abbreviated list:

Kind Meredith
Unkind Meredith
Successful Meredith
Failure Meredith
Future Meredith
Past Meredith
Incompetent Meredith
Competent Meredith
Content Meredith
Discontented Meredith
Peaceful Meredith
Disturbed Meredith
…..

I needed to write it down to really see that each side of the coin has to go. This is also helping to drop any new expectations that might arise (they are trying) so there can be no future Meredith to be the recipient of whatever expectation is trying to be conjured up!

Ultimately, yes, expectations are in the way of seeing clearly. The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. The rest are just stories about awakening. It is much more ordinary and simpler than these stories.

I love this - yes, just that seeking will end - there's nothing for the "I" to hold onto.

And happy to share where I’m writing to you from. I live in Mexico. I’ve been coming here for years and two years ago decided to move permanently (from Southern California). May I ask where you are located? I’m guessing Europe by the time difference.

Muchas muchas gracias!!!

[poppyseed]

Good morning, Meredith
I live in South Africa, but I originally come from Bulgaria 😊

I started to write down all the parts of me that need to be let go of - here’s an abbreviated list:
Kind Meredith
Unkind Meredith
Successful Meredith
Failure Meredith
Future Meredith
Past Meredith
Incompetent Meredith
Competent Meredith
Content Meredith
Discontented Meredith
Peaceful Meredith
Disturbed Meredith
…..

So let's be clear here. This is not a self-improvement exercise. We are here to examine if there is Meredith/”I” in the first place. Are there really all these Merediths hiding there or these are just thoughts/stories? This is not a rhetorical question, so please look and answer
Let me reiterate what LOOKING or direct experience is – the experience of the senses (colors/forms, sounds, sensations, smells and tastes). Thoughts are there but we are not looking at the thought content/stories. So when you look for these kind/unkind, successful/failure, etc. Merediths what can you find?
Love
R

[Meredith57]

Thank you for catching “me” again.

“Are there really all these Merediths hiding there or these are just thoughts/stories? This is not a rhetorical question, so please look and answer”

No, all these Merediths do not exist. They are stories that have been believed and continue to be believed. When there is direct seeing, direct hearing… directly experiencing of the world, there are no stories, so no Meredith.

When “I” thoughts arise there is sometimes no getting pulled into them, no believing them. Other times there is a little getting pulled into them and believing them but then a seeing more clearly and release. And then times when there is a lot of getting pulled into them and believing them for longer periods of time before the seeing is more clear.

The “I” thoughts can arise but without believing them to be real Meredith doesn’t arise - but it’s still tricky at this stage.

There is an intellectual understanding (and sometimes a real felt sense of knowing) that Meredith isn’t hiding when these thoughts/beliefs go away - that there never was a Meredith in the first place - simply an idea conjured up through thoughts and believing those thoughts.

Meredith is simply a story/a thought that has been believed. Even in dreams, is it not the “I” thoughts that are creating the dream Meredith?

“So when you look for these kind/unkind, successful/failure, etc. Merediths what can you find?”

None of these Merediths exist except through thought - believing those thoughts to be “me.” This body can still experience the world (touch, taste, see, hear, smell), and even answer to someone addressing this body as Meredith, but only when there is a belief in the “I” thoughts as creating something real does Meredith seemingly arise.

There is just seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, and still thinking, feelings, emotions. There is nothing else. This is all there is.

[poppyseed]

Hi Meredith
Good looking! Now for the tricky parts…

And then times when there is a lot of getting pulled into them and believing them for longer periods of time before the seeing is more clear.

Who is the one that is getting pulled into the stories/believes them or sees clearly? Does Meredith appear only in certain situations or these are stories about stories? If “Meredith is simply a story”, can a thought control other thoughts or the other senses (e.g., to see clearly)

Thoughts overlay the raw experience with labels, concepts, and stories. A thought is never the actual experience - eating chocolate vs remembering eating chocolate. if they were then you would be able to taste the word 'sweet', hear the word 'waterfall' and get wet with the thought 'water'. Some thoughts point to the actual, and some point to other thoughts, but the content of every single thought is just fiction, which can't be found in actual experience.
1. For the next exercise I want you to sit and observe thoughts. Where do thoughts appear from? Are they 100% true? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Can the flow of thoughts be changed? Watch like a hawk.

This body can still experience the world (touch, taste, see, hear, smell), and even answer to someone addressing this body as Meredith, but only when there is a belief in the “I” thoughts as creating something real does Meredith seemingly arise.

Does the body experience the senses? Can the body do things? Where is the body in DE?
2. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience – a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear

You have two exercises. Please start with the first one and report, and only then start with second one. Take your time with these, don’t rush to report, as they are both important. Have fun :)

Love
R

[Meredith57]

“Who is the one that is getting pulled into the stories/believes them or sees clearly?”

I know this wasn’t part of the exercise you gave me but because it has always confused me to believe that it is awareness that forgets itself I wanted to investigate.

Each time I look for who is getting pulled into the story, everything disappears except for awareness. Can it really be that awareness is getting pulled into the drama? If when looking for it (the one getting pulled into the story) awareness is all there is, then isn’t that what it is?

I have no idea why awareness would believe it is something else (maybe just to play??) but there is nothing else to be pulled in.

Awareness conjures up a story, gets lost in the story, and only when awareness looks for itself does it remember it’s awareness.

Why would awareness forget itself? An oversight? The senses are just too convincing? Intentional, to make the virtual game more virtual? Because it can?

I don’t know why but it is awareness that forgets that it is awareness and only remembers when you look for the source of who is getting pulled in and it recognizes itself again.

“Does Meredith appear only in certain situations or these are stories about stories?”

Meredith can only appear in stories - it’s a necessary condition for the arising of the illusion of Meredith. Without the story Meredith cannot “appear.” I hadn’t seen it before, but yes, these are stories about stories. Endless stories, layering on top of one another until it becomes so muddled you can’t see a way out - until it is questioned - who is getting pulled into the story? And then the story vanishes.

“Does the body experience the senses? Can the body do things?”

I misspoke here - the body doesn’t experience anything - it is the window, the audio speaker… The instrument by which awareness knows itself. Without the body the world (awareness in all its various forms, shapes, colors, textures, sounds, objects…) cannot be experienced. The body itself is just a conglomeration of many different parts - there is really no “body” there.

“Where is the body in DE?”

I don’t know what “DE” is?

“For the next exercise I want you to sit and observe thoughts. Where do thoughts appear from?”

When I look for the source of thought, thought drops away and there is just awareness. They must arise out of awareness, appear in awareness, and disappear back into awareness.

“Are they 100% true?”

They are never 100% true. Thoughts can describe something but never give you the real taste (as you said in your example of chocolate and a waterfall). And that’s at their best when they are describing something like chocolate or a waterfall. When thoughts try to depict the past or project the future they go so far off course - they are not even 1% true.

“Do they appear randomly or in a structured way?

”

They appear completely randomly - while there seems to be a lot of thought around what just happened or is about to happen, interspersed in there are the most random of thoughts - making up shit about the future, distorting the past. Jumping around endlessly, stirring the pot.

“Can the flow of thoughts be changed?”

Yes, when you look for the thinker, the source of the thoughts, questioning who is worried or who is annoyed. When one investigates the thoughts the flow of thoughts stop in that moment. Yes, they start up again later but much more slowly.

Thank you so much Rali for your caring guidance.

[Meredith57]

“Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience – a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear”

The feeling of the cold glass (a) more accurately describes the experience. The “cold” label appears as a thought, which as we described in the previous exercise doesn’t describe reality at all.

The order: contact with the glass gave rise to sensation, which gave rise to thoughts about the sensation, the labeling it as cold, wet, refreshing, then noticing the thinking about it and coming back to the sensation only, there was no cold, no wet, no refreshing just sensation.

The thinking doesn’t just layer something on top of sensation - it makes a "me" that is feeling something other than me - something cold. But when it is just sensation, there is no separation - no glass that is cold and me holding it. Just sensation - we are one.

[poppyseed]

Hi Meredith
You did some really nice looking there but maybe you needed more time to play with these exercises. Let’s leave the body exercise for now and come back to it later… I’m sorry for the abbreviation DE- it was meant to be “direct experience”. Can we agree on it for future use? I apologise for the lack of clarity.

I know this wasn’t part of the exercise you gave me but because it has always confused me to believe that it is awareness that forgets itself I wanted to investigate…
…I don’t know why but it is awareness that forgets that it is awareness and only remembers when you look for the source of who is getting pulled in and it recognizes itself again.

What a big fat STORY 😊! It seems you are creating another character here, called Awareness (you might as well call it the Witness), which can play, conjure up a story etc. That “smells” like Advaita Vedanta to me and we agreed that we’ll leave all that aside. In your actual direct experience (DE), is there really an entity called Awareness? What does it look like – form/color; does it speak – how can you describe it using the five senses? You said earlier that there’s no witness but witnessing, so can’t we say the same about “Awareness”? Is there awareness or “aware-ing”/knowing/being?

Now let’s LOOK even deeper… where does awareness stop and the thoughts start - is there a visible or invisible border? Are there ”solid” thoughts floating around in “awareness” - “arising, appearing and disappearing”? Are the thinker/awareness, thought, and thinking separate? Can there be awareness without objects? You said that thoughts do not exist without awareness. Now, would awareness of the thoughts exist without the thoughts? Please LOOK, don’t intellectualise, imagine or remember from your previous experience!

Take some time with this, please. It is funny how language creates subjects and objects out of thin air. Language is useful to communicate but is it 100% accurate? See if you can notice what is actually there beyond the language trickery. Please play with all questions in blue and see which resonate the most.

Love
R