LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? Although having a 'self' is accepted by almost all members of the western society, it has been reported by so-called awakened individuals that 'self' is an illusion, a character in the waking state of the life of an individual. This is usually not accepted and an insight has to be achieved in order to dispell the 'spell of the self'.
What are you looking for at LU? To challenge "my" fear & take the final step in the "process" of dissolving the self. Although I intellectually understand that the doer cannot be located, I still feel and think from the point of the character in a strong storyline.
What do you expect from a guided conversation? Direct and personal questions & pointers which will make me look "deeper" and "fearlessly" proceed in dismantling the mirage of the self which is still for some reason quite strong in my emotional belief.
What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I have experience with meditation, breathwork, psychedelics. I have read McKenna, Nisargadatta, Backgklund and ton of other "spiritual" literature just to really realize that I need to put aside even them but "I" think that still some important piece of advice is somewhat missing, especially the "practical" part.
On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11
Imagine's line
Re: Imagine's line
Hi
There is no self to dissolve : the goal is to see that there is no separate self in the first place. I am glad to work with you till the truth is seen.
Read the disclaimer text and learn how to use the quote function.
Try to be here once a day to maintain the flow of looking and avoid to be distracted by stories.
To begin with : what is expected to happen after having seen through the illusion of a separate self ?
Warissem
There is no self to dissolve : the goal is to see that there is no separate self in the first place. I am glad to work with you till the truth is seen.
Read the disclaimer text and learn how to use the quote function.
Try to be here once a day to maintain the flow of looking and avoid to be distracted by stories.
To begin with : what is expected to happen after having seen through the illusion of a separate self ?
Warissem
Re: Imagine's line
I am glad to work with you till the truth is seen.
Thank you for guiding me.
What is expected to happen after having seen through the illusion of a separate self ?
To be honest, I do not expect (project) anything regarding the process since I am pretty sure the "result" is out of the box of any kind of expectation I could have.
Re: Imagine's line
Good evening
Glad to read your realistic answer about expectations. That's good to be in a state of not knowing.
I suggest for you this exercise about thoughts. Look attentively to arising thoughts and give answers after having seen for certain that it is the truth.
Quote each question and answer separately to it.
Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.
Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?
Best for you
Warissem
Glad to read your realistic answer about expectations. That's good to be in a state of not knowing.
I suggest for you this exercise about thoughts. Look attentively to arising thoughts and give answers after having seen for certain that it is the truth.
Quote each question and answer separately to it.
Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.
Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?
Best for you
Warissem
Re: Imagine's line
Hello Warissem, here are my observations.
During the exercise it also ocurred several times to me that who is it who decides when to STOP the stories of the thoughts. Who decided that I will take this exercise? It can be pretty confusing.
I would like to imagine that it's some space which I would call the 'mind' but they simply appear from nothing which again is confusing in case I point my attention to this fact(observation).
No. They simply appear and disappear. Sometimes I get caught in the storyline and some other times I don't "buy" the stories but again, who-the-hell decides when to be hypnotized by the thought and when to see the thought as passing by.
No. The more I see this the more fear I feel when questioning how can we live our lives in the conviction that "we" direct our lives & minds. If I would really admit that we cannot predict our thoughts, how is it possible that the life goes on and this get done?
Maybe it would be possible to force oneself to delve in pleasant visualisations for some time (e.g. 15 minute evening relaxation) but still, any thoughts can arise. So the whole process is out-of-control.
I would love to, haha, just to spread compassion and loving messages but no, I cannot choose that kind of thoughts. Maybe I can choose to not to express them. But again, WHO would choose to not to express them. Confusion again.
Who is doing the picking? And in case there is some "who", what is controlling the 'who'... endless chain of command.
No, the more one tries to prevent something, the more energy is given to it.
The sequence is constructed only after it appeared, before there is no sequence visible. And what decides whether thoughts are in sequence? If I would read some foreign text and words would make no sense there would be no way for me to decide that they are meaningless.
Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.
During the exercise it also ocurred several times to me that who is it who decides when to STOP the stories of the thoughts. Who decided that I will take this exercise? It can be pretty confusing.
Where are they coming from and going to?
I would like to imagine that it's some space which I would call the 'mind' but they simply appear from nothing which again is confusing in case I point my attention to this fact(observation).
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
No. They simply appear and disappear. Sometimes I get caught in the storyline and some other times I don't "buy" the stories but again, who-the-hell decides when to be hypnotized by the thought and when to see the thought as passing by.
Can you predict your next thought?
No. The more I see this the more fear I feel when questioning how can we live our lives in the conviction that "we" direct our lives & minds. If I would really admit that we cannot predict our thoughts, how is it possible that the life goes on and this get done?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Maybe it would be possible to force oneself to delve in pleasant visualisations for some time (e.g. 15 minute evening relaxation) but still, any thoughts can arise. So the whole process is out-of-control.
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
I would love to, haha, just to spread compassion and loving messages but no, I cannot choose that kind of thoughts. Maybe I can choose to not to express them. But again, WHO would choose to not to express them. Confusion again.
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Who is doing the picking? And in case there is some "who", what is controlling the 'who'... endless chain of command.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
No, the more one tries to prevent something, the more energy is given to it.
...look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence?
The sequence is constructed only after it appeared, before there is no sequence visible. And what decides whether thoughts are in sequence? If I would read some foreign text and words would make no sense there would be no way for me to decide that they are meaningless.
Re: Imagine's line
Hi
Good observations of what is happening. I will give my comments later.
Best for you
Warissem
Good observations of what is happening. I will give my comments later.
Best for you
Warissem
Re: Imagine's line
Hi
As I said, you have done good observations. About the decision maker, there will be exercises in due time, be patient and give faith to the process. At one condition : don't go to thoughts, don't go to why and how : these are of no help for you to see through the illusion. Why and how are distractions.
These are my comments about some of your answers :
Yes thoughts come from nowhere : when a thought is seen, it has already araised.
Ponder about this :
1 "I am reading these words on the screen"
and
2 Reading of these words on the screen is happening
Look at each sentence and look at what is really happening. After having looked, what the true sentence 1) or 2) ?
Is there an I reading ? If so, where is it hidden and what is the distance between this I and the screen ?
Best wishes
Warissem
As I said, you have done good observations. About the decision maker, there will be exercises in due time, be patient and give faith to the process. At one condition : don't go to thoughts, don't go to why and how : these are of no help for you to see through the illusion. Why and how are distractions.
These are my comments about some of your answers :
During our dialog, the answers are given through direct experience : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations. Concepts are used only for communication.I would like to imagine that it's some space which I would call the 'mind' but they simply appear from nothing which again is confusing in case I point my attention to this fact(observation).
Yes thoughts come from nowhere : when a thought is seen, it has already araised.
Why and how are not helping to see through the illusion of a separate self. We are only interested in direct experience. Anyway, don’t worry about life, the brain is programmed to navigate without a need of a you.No. The more I see this the more fear I feel when questioning how can we live our lives in the conviction that "we" direct our lives & minds. If I would really admit that we cannot predict our thoughts, how is it possible that the life goes on and this get done?
Ponder about this :
1 "I am reading these words on the screen"
and
2 Reading of these words on the screen is happening
Look at each sentence and look at what is really happening. After having looked, what the true sentence 1) or 2) ?
Is there an I reading ? If so, where is it hidden and what is the distance between this I and the screen ?
Best wishes
Warissem
Re: Imagine's line
Why and how are distractions.
Yes, the why and how indeed are distractions.
Anyway, don’t worry about life, the brain is programmed to navigate without a need of a you.
This is difficult to accept but I suppose this is also part of the process.
Look at each sentence and look at what is really happening. After having looked, what the true sentence 1) or 2) ?
Is there an I reading ? If so, where is it hidden and what is the distance between this I and the screen ?
There is no distance, it is as if the reading and now writing is happening "inside" me or simply - it is happening, when I drop the concept of outside/inside. The screen, fingers on the keyboards, sounds of keys clicking, feeling of sitting on a chair is happening.
Re: Imagine's line
Good evening
What is coming up when you read this : there is no separate self in any shape or form, there never was, it will never be.
Best for you
Warissem
What is this "me" : inside what ?There is no distance, it is as if the reading and now writing is happening "inside" me
There is no you to drop the concept ... Is it true ? look.or simply - it is happening, when I drop the concept of outside/inside.
Yes, everything is happening by itself, without a you.The screen, fingers on the keyboards, sounds of keys clicking, feeling of sitting on a chair is happening.
What is coming up when you read this : there is no separate self in any shape or form, there never was, it will never be.
Best for you
Warissem
Re: Imagine's line
What is this "me" : inside what ?
I meant "me" as everything what's happening, all sensations.
There is no you to drop the concept ... Is it true ? look.
No, the concept is dropped by itself.
What is coming up when you read this : there is no separate self in any shape or form, there never was, it will never be.
Mixture of great relief and fear. But I also feel trust that it's true.
Re: Imagine's line
Hi
Look at this fear, where does it express itself in the body ? Welcome it and look behind it.
Come back with what is found.
Warissem
A fear is a sensation + the concept "fear".Mixture of great relief and fear. But I also feel trust that it's true.
Look at this fear, where does it express itself in the body ? Welcome it and look behind it.
Come back with what is found.
Warissem
Re: Imagine's line
Look at this fear, where does it express itself in the body ?
It feels in the belly area, as contraction. Should I simply relax into it and wait?
Re: Imagine's line
Hi
Is there fear or is it only a sensation labelled "fear" ?
Is there a feeler ?
Best for you
Warissem
Good. Welcome the sensation as it is and look for what is behind this sensation.It feels in the belly area, as contraction. Should I simply relax into it and wait?
Is there fear or is it only a sensation labelled "fear" ?
Is there a feeler ?
Best for you
Warissem
Re: Imagine's line
Is there fear or is it only a sensation labelled "fear" ?
The more looking happens, the less fear there is and trust arises instead.
Is there a feeler ?
No feeler, just feelings arising and dissolving on their own.
Re: Imagine's line
Good morning
Yes, trust is arising ;it is a good sign. Now, we investigate more the feelings and sensations.
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.
Look at each question and give an answer through direct experience.
Best for you
Warissem
Yes, trust is arising ;it is a good sign. Now, we investigate more the feelings and sensations.
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.
Look at each question and give an answer through direct experience.
Best for you
Warissem
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