Ready to crash the gate. Very grateful for any guidance.

[oversoul]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? That there is no separate self apart from what is happening. No doer or anyone in control. No seer, thinker, hearer — just seeing, thinking, hearing happening by itself.

What are you looking for at LU? A guide who can continually direct me to my own experience, and clear up my specific “arguments” that my mind always comes up with! This would be so helpful, as I have read so many books and I’m so tired of concepts, I just want to look for myself.

Earlier this year I experienced something that was like waking up from a dream, in a very calm ordinary way, where I saw that my thoughts were not me, and the story of my past and future (time) was not real. I realised the idea of obtaining liberation in the future was insanity, all these years I wasted trying! This felt like such clarity, however I still felt like an “I” somewhere. So I began to try and find this “I”, and in the seeking I seem to have reinforced it even more! Arrrgh! :) I hope for a guide who can cut through my bullshit and help me examine this.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? Pointers and experiments that will challenge my assumption that there is a separate self here. A conversation that could clear up some of my personal blind spots as I share these honestly. I have no expectations in terms of results, just hoping to look directly.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? Ten years ago I began meditation and mindfulness, and then got bit by the non-duality bug and began seeking for liberation (listening to hundreds of videos, books, including all the LU content). Eventually I got so exasperated that I gave up on the idea of “getting it”, and I took a break from spiritual books. I returned to meditating just for the nice feeling of it. That’s when I had the glimpse mentioned above, where it felt like, “Oh there’s just here and now, no liberation to get to.” Very simple. And then I got bit by the bug again, trying to clear up the blind spots and getting tangled further in the weeds!

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Vivien]

Hello oversoul,

Welcome to LU. I can help you with your exploration into seeing that there is no separate self.

But you say there is :) So let's look into that.

Please spend a whole day repeatedly looking at in your daily life.... what is the EXPERIENCE of a separate self in this moment?

How is it experienced?

By which of the 5 senses?

Also, this inquiry has a momentum, so it's important to inquire every day. So I would like to ask you to reply daily, or at least every other day. Is that OK with you?

Vivien

[oversoul]

Hello Vivien, thank you so much for your reply. It is morning here so I will spend today doing as you asked, then report back!

I would like to ask you to reply daily, or at least every other day. Is that OK with you?

Absolutely. Speak soon... :)

[oversoul]

Hi Vivien, I spent all day posing your questions and noting down my experience. I received different answers depending on situations. I have never investigated these exact questions before, so there was much to notice, and my descriptions may be a bit clumsy!

Please spend a whole day repeatedly looking at in your daily life.... what is the EXPERIENCE of a separate self in this moment?

In the morning while planning the day: Frequent mental images arise that envision what the next action should be. For example, an image of taking a shower vs. exercising beforehand. While these images play, they feel like a self is making decisions. Experienced ‘visually’ as mind movies.

While working at my computer: Increasing tension around my eyes. Tension in the head in general, and in my arms as I type. A feeling of holding in the body. This density, tightness feels like a self that is Doing, experienced as physical sensation.

During sitting breaks: While simply sitting in silence, the warm, soft throbbing of the entire body becomes noticeable. A gentle buzzing in my limbs, torso, and head. Visually, I look down and see colours and shapes (torso, legs) which seems to be the container of this buzzing feeling. The shape seems to be a border. Buzzing sensation + shape of body = seems like a self.

During experiences that trigger strong emotions: Emails and texts come in that require me to make decisions. An emotional reaction arises for each one; the direct experience is a sinking in the heart, slight nausea, a jittery feeling in my limbs, pounding heartbeat. Mental images again arise, playing out different scenarios and ways of responding. Images of myself acting + a strong emotional feeling = feels like a self.

At points throughout the day: Mind chatter is “heard” as my own voice talking in my head (it sounds identical to the voice that comes out of this body). Occasionally this feels like a self, when it is heard “loudly”, as it becomes an experience seemingly separate from everything around me.

In summary, each time I posed the question “What is the experience of a separate self in this moment?” My attention was drawn to one of the above. Mental images / sound, physical sensations, or a combination.

How is it experienced?

By which of the 5 senses?

The mental images seem to be “Seen” visually. Like a filter covering the actual view in front of me.

The mental chatter, speaking with my voice, seems to be Heard internally.

The bodily sensations are all Felt as inner sensations.

Lastly, the colour and shape of my body that I see when I look down, is perceived by Sight.

-

One thing I noticed is that when identification was solely in mental thoughts (e.g. in the morning), the body was seen obviously to be acting entirely on its own. When identification was solely physical (e.g. during sitting breaks), thoughts were seen to be random mental noise. So identification would flip between them, but never let go of both at once!

I had never realised this before.

Thank you so much for the guidance! Hopefully I have understood the exercise correctly, apologies if this is a lot to unpack.

Natasha

[Vivien]

Hello Natasha,

You did a really nice inquiry :)

How is it experienced?

By which of the 5 senses?

By which of the 5 senses?

The mental images seem to be “Seen” visually. Like a filter covering the actual view in front of me.

The mental chatter, speaking with my voice, seems to be Heard internally.

The bodily sensations are all Felt as inner sensations.

Lastly, the colour and shape of my body that I see when I look down, is perceived by Sight.

Let's look into this.

Please close your eyes, and visualize an apple. Really look at it.
Now open your eyes, Where is the apple?
Was there an actual, real apple seen just a moment ago?

Experiment with all sorts of images (visualizing all sorts of things), then opening the eyes and ACTUALLY SEEING.
When there is visualization, what is actually EXPERIENCED?
An ACTUAL apple, or just a mental image, a mental REPLICA, a fake mental copy of something that is NOT actually there, not actually real?

Now, experiment with sounds. Imagine the sound of a piano.
Is there an actual, real sound heard?
Or there is only just a mental replica of a sound which doesn't actually exist in reality, here now?

Imagine the sound of the ocean.
is there really a sound being experienced?
Is there a real ocean heard?
Or is this just another face mental copy of something that doesn't exist in reality, here now?

Now imagine the sensation of a soft feather stroking the skin.
Is there a real, actual sensation present?
Or there is only an IMAGINATION, but not a real thing?

Please spend a whole day experimenting with all kinds of things.
What do you discover?

What is the difference between what is actually, really here, and what is just imagined, mentally conjured up?

Vivien

[oversoul]

Hi Vivien, I experimented throughout the day with many different things, also comparing with real objects in front of me. Wrote in here as I had insights.

Please close your eyes, and visualize an apple. Really look at it.
Now open your eyes, Where is the apple?
Was there an actual, real apple seen just a moment ago?

No, there was no real apple. In fact the apple I visualised was a very rudimentary 2D shape with muted colours, and every time I visualised an apple throughout the day, it was a different apple (slightly different colours, shapes). None of these apples exist in real life, totally random impressions.

Experiment with all sorts of images (visualizing all sorts of things), then opening the eyes and ACTUALLY SEEING.
When there is visualization, what is actually EXPERIENCED?
An ACTUAL apple, or just a mental image, a mental REPLICA, a fake mental copy of something that is NOT actually there, not actually real?

No apple is experienced. A mental image of an apple is experienced!

Something struck me when I imagined biting into an apple, versus actually biting into it. When I bit an apple for real, I experienced: The cold temperature in my hand. Smooth, hard surface. Crisp texture against my teeth, and the crunchy sound. Sour taste on the left side of my mouth where I am chewing. Different textures of the apple skin versus the flesh.

Then I tried to visualise biting into an apple: I could imagine that the apple would feel cold, and a crunchy texture when biting in, and some kind of taste. But I can’t experience any of those! It’s like I remember a taste, but I can’t actually taste it while imagining. I have a faint impression of coldness, but I cannot feel a sensation of cold in anywhere.

-

I also had many mental images naturally arise during the day (envisioning my next action, or worries about the future). I compared these with the actual scene in front of me. The mental images were faint and insubstantial compared to real experience. Like a ghost impression. I also noticed in these visions, I see myself in situations as if looking from the outside, a 3rd person view. I have never seen myself from the outside, of course, it’s impossible. These scenes are total fantasy.

Now, experiment with sounds. Imagine the sound of a piano.
Is there an actual, real sound heard?
Or there is only just a mental replica of a sound which doesn't actually exist in reality, here now?

Imagine the sound of the ocean.
is there really a sound being experienced?
Is there a real ocean heard?
Or is this just another face mental copy of something that doesn't exist in reality, here now?

There is no real sound heard. No piano or ocean sounds here, just the sounds that really exist, such as the people outside, the cars. Now that I examine it, mental sound feels very different from hearing. Just now I imagined the sound of a guitar string. I then plucked a guitar string for real. The experiences were so different. I am finding it hard to describe in what way. Hearing seems more panoramic somehow, maybe a sense of vibration in the ears. Perhaps I can’t describe it but it makes me wonder why I said in my previous post that I “heard” my mental chatter — that seems totally untrue now, that isn’t hearing at all!

In fact when I pay attention to what sounds are really here, it is obvious that hearing happens so passively and immediately, and actually there is no activity of hearing, it’s just sounds existing. It feels more like the existence of sounds, rather than an activity called hearing.

Now imagine the sensation of a soft feather stroking the skin.
Is there a real, actual sensation present?
Or there is only an IMAGINATION, but not a real thing?

Absolutely no sensation present. It is weird, at first I thought ‘yes I can feel that’, but when I really examine it — especially when I contrast it with actually tickling my skin — it is obvious I couldn’t feel any sensation at all. It’s like a trickery of the mind that assumes the sensation was felt. Weird!

Please spend a whole day experimenting with all kinds of things.
What do you discover?

What is the difference between what is actually, really here, and what is just imagined, mentally conjured up?

Mentally, images and sounds are dull and faint. Other characteristics like taste and smell are almost non-existent in imagination. It seems to take effort to conjur them up. Some things took quite a bit of effort to imagine, when reaching into my memory for how those objects look or sound. It also seems like it is hard to imagine multiple senses at once.

What is actually here exists, here, directly. Not coming to me from outside via a an activity of sight, hearing etc., but just exists. I can feel all senses at the same time — the warm sun on my skin, the feeling of my bum on the chair, the soft and cool breeze on my face, the noise of drilling on the street, it is all-encompassing. No effort needed at all!

[Vivien]

You did an excellent inquiry!

Now, you can clearly see what is really an experience and what is just mentally conjured up (fake, not real, not actual).

Now, let's go back to this 'sense of self'.
Experience yourself! :)
Not the body, but yourself, the I/me.

How is me/I experienced?

V

[oversoul]

Now, let's go back to this 'sense of self'.
Experience yourself! :)
Not the body, but yourself, the I/me.

How is me/I experienced?

Hi Vivien, I looked at this continually yesterday. Quite quickly it was obvious that the bodily sensations were not me, they were just a body. This body is just one of the things that is vividly sensed in this moment, along with everything I see out the window and in the room.

So then thoughts occurred, and it felt like that is where Me was. But upon further inspection, the Me was in the content of the thought (verbal noise saying “I this and that”). So what was actually experienced was not Me, but a thought. The content of a thought could be a dog, or an apple, either way what is experienced is a thought.

So then there was a sense that ok, the thought is not me, but it’s the activity of me. Some invisible thing here that’s creating the thoughts, thinking them. So I looked, where is the thinker?

I sit and investigate with my senses. Certainly I can’t see a thinker. Definitely can’t hear one. Nor touch or taste anyone. And feeling is just the body as I mentioned above.

Right now I can experience the throbbing of my body, my pounding heartbeat, ringing in my ears, buzzing of my fridge, sounds from the street, warm temperature of the room, soft bed I am sitting on. That is what’s actually here.

I say the word “I”, “Me”, and nothing appears additionally that matches that label.

I don’t find anything that could be a thinker, a person.

I can’t sense myself! And yet, here I am, saying I all the time because I still have a sense of myself. Where do I sense it, why do I feel and write like an I?

Plenty of thoughts arise that say there must be a thinker in order for there to be thoughts, or a controller of the body. But I have no proof of that. I realised I could also believe that there is a giant green alien moving the clouds across the sky, since I have just as much proof of that. Me and the green alien are both ideas pulled out of nowhere it seems. And yet, I still feel like me. How can that be? Will keep looking continually.

Thank you :)
Natasha

[Vivien]

Hi Natasha,

Yes, belief in a thinker, that I am the doer, I'm thinking thoughts, I am making happen is one of the way (probably the biggest way), how the sense of I appears.

So let's look at this more closely.

Let's just go along the general, everyday assumption that I am the thinker of my thoughts.
I am thinking.
I am doing it.
I am making thoughts happen.
It's my doing.

So investigate:

How do you think a thought?
What do you do exactly in order to think?
How do you birth (make/create) a thought into existence?

So instead of looking for a thinker, we are investigating the assumption that I am doing it. But is that really true?

enjoy,
V

[oversoul]

Hi Vivien,

So investigate:

How do you think a thought?
What do you do exactly in order to think?
How do you birth (make/create) a thought into existence?

I don’t do anything; they arise by themselves just like other things I experience. I don’t have to do anything to birth a thought. Thinking happens on its own just like I can feel my heart beat right now on its own. Every time I looked, I could not find anything that occurred prior to thinking as a way to make it happen.

So instead of looking for a thinker, we are investigating the assumption that I am doing it. But is that really true?

It is not true that I am doing it. Everything happens on its own. The more often I see this, it is like the feeling of a centre fades. But what then arises is a sense of me experiencing all of this happening on its own. Seeing it, being aware of it. So I don’t do thinking, and I don’t do any actions, but I exist to experience it all. I can’t feel this experiencer with any of my 5 senses. It doesn’t feel like there is a location. But everything appears here and it feels like I am here to receive it, and as I tell you about this it feels like there is a continuity with who experienced these things earlier today.

In addition to that sense of an experiencer, there are thoughts that insist that “I exist”, I’m alive, I’m not unconscious or dead, I’m here, how else could I experience anything. Maybe I’m conflating “I” with existence or awareness. My mind feels a bit scrambled trying to explain this, which is maybe a good thing, because it seems the more I look, the more my mind can’t hold on to one convincing belief. Keeps jumping around!

[Vivien]

In addition to that sense of an experiencer, there are thoughts that insist that “I exist”, I’m alive, I’m not unconscious or dead, I’m here, how else could I experience anything. Maybe I’m conflating “I” with existence or awareness

Well, we don't deny existence. We are just looking if there is a person, an entity, called Natasha in reality. That's all.

But saying that "I don't exist" is just the denial of existence.
The big question is, do I exist AS something? Even as an experiencer?
Or rather there is just existence / life / knowingness happening on it's own, but without an entity at a receiving end?

So, look at this.... what is at the receiving end?
Is there actually a receiving end?
Or receiving is just happening (like rain is just happening), but without a doer, or a receiver?

Is being an entity (a noun), or rather a happening, a verb only?
Like, rainer or raining (just happening)?
Being (be-er) or being (verb) is just happening?

V

[oversoul]

Hi Vivien, yes, a verb! Something clicked.

But saying that "I don't exist" is just the denial of existence.
The big question is, do I exist AS something? Even as an experiencer?

Definitely don’t exist as some thing - not a thing - if this experiencer were a thing, I would be able to perceive it with my senses.

Or rather there is just existence / life / knowingness happening on it's own, but without an entity at a receiving end?

I can see that there is no entity - an entity would be a thing.

So, look at this.... what is at the receiving end?
Is there actually a receiving end?
Or receiving is just happening (like rain is just happening), but without a doer, or a receiver?

Receiving is just happening! Absolutely no doer. No one does anything to receive, no one can decide to receive or not to receive, or even what to receive, or where to direct awareness. Yes, like rain.

Is being an entity (a noun), or rather a happening, a verb only?
Like, rainer or raining (just happening)?

Being, receiving, experiencing, are all happenings. There is definitely no rainer, no one doing rain. Raining just happens. Yes, rain is an activity. You could not even point to one object that equals rain. Experiencing is an activity. What I called experiencer, turns out it was really an activity (like raining & rain, both point to an activity, even though “rain” is a noun). And you don’t need a do-er for an activity to happen.

Being (be-er) or being (verb) is just happening?

There is no be-er! But there absolutely is being, existing, experiencing. Feels like a little penny has dropped - a happening, a verb, makes so much sense.

I guess now I want to say, “I am” the verb of experiencing, haha. Even though I can’t control it or feel it. Like the “I” thought just has to find something to stick to…
Thank you for all your help.

Natasha

[Vivien]

I guess now I want to say, “I am” the verb of experiencing, haha. Even though I can’t control it or feel it. Like the “I” thought just has to find something to stick to…

Who or what is trying to say that?

What or who is talking?

What is it that is trying to identify itself and say "this is what I am"?

And what about Natasha?
Where is she?

How Natasha is experienced?

V

[oversoul]

Who or what is trying to say that?

What or who is talking?

What is it that is trying to identify itself and say "this is what I am"?

The more I looked at this, the more it was clearly just a thought, a movement of mind, with no one behind it. The previous few days, thoughts had been very compelling as I was really busy and stressed. Yesterday, things settled, and increasingly thoughts were seen to be just be movements away from here, mostly meaningless. But likewise, the body is still seen to be just moving on its own.

I felt a faint fear arise, like a sensation of not being able to hold on to anything, free falling. But only faintly. I have always been strongly identified with either thoughts or body, and as that got less strong, it seemed to trigger a bit of fear.

And what about Natasha?
Where is she?

How Natasha is experienced?

Natasha is what I would call the appearance of this body (the visual appearance plus bodily sensations), plus the thoughts that create a character in time. More and more, it all just feels like a happening, something playing out by itself. Interesting to experience it, even though there are some unpleasant emotions at the moment.

However, all of the above is what I experienced when I looked throughout the day, and had some longer sitting sessions. In between, when I’m going about my day-to-day (especially mundane tasks), I often go into some zoned out mode. Not necessarily thinking, but feels contracted. Only when I snap back into reality do I realise, it’s like loosening a shoe that was too tight.

However, being guided by you has reduced this by a lot, as I have been using my spare moments for inquiry, when normally I would have been filling it with watching TV or something. Thank you for this!

[Vivien]

I felt a faint fear arise, like a sensation of not being able to hold on to anything, free falling. But only faintly. I have always been strongly identified with either thoughts or body, and as that got less strong, it seemed to trigger a bit of fear.

Just keep noticing the fear whenever shows up.

What is it that the fear trying to protect?
What is it that needs protection?
And protection from what?

I often go into some zoned out mode

What is it that goes into zoned out mode?

Is there something / someone moving in and out of states?

What does the zoned out mode (or any state) is happening TO?

Only when I snap back into reality do I realise

So there is someone / something snapping in and out of reality.... is that so?

And what realizes / recognizes what happens?

When there is contraction, what does it happening TO?
What is at the receiver end of contractions?

You are doing a really nice inquiry :) just keep looking.

Love, V