Stuck in the gate

[Freedom22]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The self is just an idea that is formed in early childhood through our conditioning but we believe that is who we are.

What are you looking for at LU?
I would like some guidance to help me experience life directly so that I don't keep getting caught up in my thoughts. Even though I know that I am not a separate self I keep forgetting and identifying as this.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect that I will be asked some challenging questions and by contemplating the answers I will be able to change my perspective on life which will help me to see through the illusion of a separate self.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have practised meditation for over 10 years - mindfulness, mantra and more recently Zazen. I have followed teachers such as Eckhart Tolle, Adyashanti and Rupert Spira, and have an understanding of non-duality. I have some experience of self inquiry and contemplation, both formal and informal.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Marcus1144]

Hello friend.

Thanks or your answers!

I am offering video sessions to discuss these matters and offer pointers.

Let me know if that's of any interest.

I'm also open to having a written dialogue to build some ground with a view to videos if that feels more comfortable to you.

Regards

Marcus

[Freedom22]

Thanks Marcus but I have already made arrangements with Jon to be guided by video chat.

[Freedom22]

Hi Jon
Thanks for guiding me by video chat. Here are my answers to the 6 questions:
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There is no separate self and there never was.
2) Give in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?
The illusion of separate self is created by believing thoughts and identifying with them. In experience it made me feel defensive but after discussion with Jon I was able to see that defensiveness was there rather than me feeling defensive. After trying some strategies that Jon gave me, I could see how I get caught up in thoughts and beliefs. Then I was able to stop identifying with my thoughts and see some beliefs that I had which I wasn’t aware of. Also, I noticed that the sense of a separate self is only there when I am thinking.
3) How does it feel to see this? It feels more open and spacious, I am finding it easier to tune into the silence and stillness when I focus on the senses rather than the thoughts that arise, and I am not as stuck in my head.
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days. I’m feeling more relaxed and don’t feel I need to understand everything. Over the past few days, I have noticed that I am able to listen to other people’s views without feeling defensive. All views are valid (or invalid), it doesn’t matter as they are only thoughts. The mystery of life and not knowing is more appealing now than trying to work everything out through thinking.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look? I was surprised that I was holding a belief that I wasn’t even aware of and identifying with it which made me feel defensive.
5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
It feels like there is someone who makes decisions, has intention, free will, choice and control but when I am not thinking, like when I am doing something on automatic pilot, everything still happens. When I was driving somewhere recently I realised that there was no point in worrying about where I was going to park my car as thinking about it was not going to make any difference. I don’t even want to try and think about what makes things happen and how it works as I end up being in my head too much.
b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
I am not responsible for anything as everything just happens. It feels like there are responsibilities in life but there isn’t a separate self that can own these responsibilities, that’s just a thought. I have noticed recently some of my 'responsible' behaviour appears to be in response to conditioning and habitual thoughts e.g. stopping at traffic lights even when there is no other traffic around. It feels as though I automatically do what's appropriate in situations and there is no need to think about what I need to do.
6) Anything to add?
I have experienced glimpses of no separate self which left me feeling confused and I tried to understand it through thinking and getting into my head too much. The discussions with Jon have helped me to just look at direct experience through the senses and observe thoughts without identifying with them. I would like to learn how to guide others as I think it will help me to stay alert and not get caught up in my thinking and beliefs.

[JonathanR]

Hi Helen

Thank you for your answers to the six questions. That's great.

In question 6 you mention glimpses of no self that left confusion. Can you say more, specifically about one or more of these experiences please? What was confusing about them?

How are these seen now? Is there any remaining confusion about these?

Best wishes

Jon

[Freedom22]

One glimpse I had was when I experienced a sense of oneness and there was no sense of I, everything was the same without any separation until the mind seemed to wake up and separate everything and it felt like I was back in my body. It felt completely normal and natural at the time but later I tried to understand what had happened and started feeling confused. I think the confusion was caused by thinking and talking too much about this experience (and others), using language such as ‘I’ and ‘my’. Looking at the direct experience and just accepting it as it is rather than trying to make sense of it through thinking is really helpful. I feel much clearer and lighter now that I don't feel the need to understand and I am happy to just notice what is happening without any feelings of confusion.

[JonathanR]

Thank you for saying more about this. I would now like to ask guides to take a look at your answers and see if they have helpful questions.

It might take a day or two for this to happen. I will post again as soon.

Love

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hello Helen,

One of the guides asks a couple of questions

"...like when I am doing something on automatic pilot, everything still happens. When I was driving somewhere recently I realised that there was no point in worrying about where I was going to park my car..."

Is there someone who is doing or not doing something? Why there must be someone at all?

"I noticed that the sense of a separate self is only there when I am thinking."

Why should there be anyone to think?

Thanks Helen

Jon

[Freedom22]

Thanks Jon

Is there someone who is doing or not doing something? Why there must be someone at all?

There isn’t someone doing anything, life just happens and thoughts arise including worrying which makes no difference to what is happening.

Why should there be anyone to think?

There isn’t anyone to think but when thinking happens that is when the sense of a separate self is felt especially when the thoughts are about ‘I’ and ‘my’ etc. This kind of thinking is due to habit or conditioning which is noticed more now.

Much love
Helen

[JonathanR]

Hi Helen

Thanks so much for all your answers and for the last few clarifications. That's great

I've noticed that your name has already been turned blue. You'll be hearing from an LU admin shortly.

It's great that you would like to guide. We can talk about that if you like?

It has been lovely working with you.

Love

Jon

[Freedom22]

Thanks Jon, I have really enjoyed being guided by video chat and really appreciate your support. I will be in touch via Facebook soon.
With love
Helen