Help me understand what it is that I seek

[raaveriya]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that the guidance I receive through LU will be aimed at deconstructing the illusion of self. The 'self' is the thinker of thoughts, the experiencer of experience, the judge who decides what to pay attention to.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for an alternative to the pointing out instructions I have been receiving through the Waking Up (Application) that I have been using for over an year now. Since I live in a country that does not have any spiritual guides I can turn to I am hoping I can get the guidance I need online.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
All methods of self inquiry I have used so far has been one sided. Either from books, articles or guided meditations. I am hoping a two sided conversation might help me better understand what it is that I seek or how seeking even makes any sense in the absence of a seeker.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have being regularly meditating for over an year now and try to practice mindfulness throughout the day. The main resource I have used so far has been the Waking Up Application by Sam Harris. I have read books by authors like Douglas Harding, listened to lectures by Alan Watts and Joseph Goldstein.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

Waking Up is a good resource. Sam Harris has provided a ton of good stuff.

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you know yourself to be a skeptical person, prone to doubt, I may not be the best guide for you. I never had any doubt. I can connect you with one of our other guides who did & who can guide you better than I.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Loving,
Stacy

[raaveriya]

Good evening,

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

Hi Stacy, I am grateful to have you.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

You can call me Hussain or Raaveriya, which ever you prefer. I live in Maldives GMT+5.

you must post every day.

I believe I can meet this requirement.

If you know yourself to be a skeptical person

I don't think this will be a concern.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer

I have read both the 'disclaimer' and 'what LU is not' a second time.

How will life change?

I am not sure, but there are some expectations that my relationships will be based more on actuality. I have enjoyed the way relationship dynamics changed since I started questioning the nature of life. Both the relationships I have with other people and the relationships I have with "myself" (thoughts, emotions, sensations etc).

How will you change?

I honestly hope to be surprised. When I started questioning the nature of life, I used to have a lot of expectations about how I will be when I finally "realize" the truth. Expectations about being more calm, more kind less distracted, more blissful and even in a way more holy (All the things LU isn't in short). But as I continued with my investigations, I started to see how most of these things are merely a distraction.

For instance, lets say things are going "my way" and I am in a state of bliss. One of two things happen when I "wake up" to this reality. Either thoughts of how well my practice is going cloud my mind and I remain in a pleasant state for awhile, or I recognize that this is just another state of mind that will soon be gone. Then thoughts questioning who wanted things this way or who is feeling bliss arise.

What will be different?

I expect life to be more or less the same in regards to all my emotions, chores and everything else I experience. However, I assume the relationship I have with these things will be different. In the absence of an "I" I am not sure if a relationship with any of these things makes any sense. I am confused. Hopefully I won't be for much longer or if confusion is to persist, I can see the impersonal nature of it more and more.

What is missing?

I have been unable to find evidence for anything that is missing through direct experience. However there is a continuous seeking, that there is some recognition missing that once in place will finally put an end to this seeking.

[Anastacia42]

Good morning (here in Boulder, Colorado, USA) Hussain or Raaveriya,

Welcome. Happy to help.

You seem to have seen through most of the unrealistic expectations. Good. That will help.

What comes up when is read that there is no self, never has been & never will be? That it is all a made up story?


Did you listen to Sam's meditation for today about what meditation is really for?

https://dynamic.wakingup.com/moment/SMD0D0FA20A


Much love,

Stacy

[raaveriya]

What comes up when is read that there is no self, never has been & never will be? That it is all a made up story?

Confusion.

What is this story made up of? A web of thoughts? I realize that thoughts are a mere happening. It is impossible to tell what thought would come up next, how long they will linger, when they would disappear.

For instance, when I drive a car, I can recognize how (almost) everything happens on its own. When there is a red light, the brake paddle gets pushed, when there is a turn coming up, signal lights are turned on decisions about other things gets made and none of these things require "me" to do anything or even be there. But I am still there in the middle of all of it, observing everything that is going on. What is this I? Is it just another thought that is not being recognized?

Did you listen to Sam's meditation for today about what meditation is really for?

https://dynamic.wakingup.com/moment/SMD0D0FA20A

I did not listen to this particular meditation and the URL seems to be broken. But I remember Sam talking about how we don't meditate on things (breath, sensations). How nothing even need be done, including paying attention during meditation. All of these things are already happening on their own and the point is to recognize the context of these happenings.

Love, Hussain

[Anastacia42]

Yes, good. That's correct. You seem to already see this, but here's the next thing:

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


LOOKING not "thinking."

Much love,

~ Stacy

[Anastacia42]

That Sam Harris link works for me. Well, he Talks about how people start meditating to achieve some goal like relaxation or release of suffering, et cetera but that's not what we're really meditating for - to realize what you're saying that everything just arises.

Loving,
Stacy

[raaveriya]

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

I agree

Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)

This distinction never occurred to me. This is very interesting.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

I think its clear. For the inquiry I am about to do, the only viable approach is through direct experience. But thoughts are pretty persuasive. I apologize in advance if you have to direct me back to Looking and not thinking.

Kind Regards,
Hussain

[Anastacia42]

All good, Hussain,

if you have to direct me back to Looking and not thinking.

That's my job.

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same form of words. Same order. Everything.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

~ Stacy

[raaveriya]

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above,
please. Same form of words. Same order. Everything.

- feeling the pressure of butt on a chair, simply = sensation
- feeling the cold of door handle, simply = sensation
- feeling the bristles of tooth brush against teeth/gum, simply = sensation
- seeing reflection of body in mirror, simply = image/color
- thinking about this exercise, simply = thought
- hearing construction noises, simply = sound
- hearing birds chirping outside, simply = sound
- hearing siblings bickering, simply = sound
- feeling sinking sensation in throat, simply = sensation
- thinking about what to do next at work, simply = thought
- thinking about vaping, simply = thought
- thinking about how to resolve conflicts, simply = thought
- hearing traffic outside, simply = sound
- feeling wind on face, simply = sensation
- feeling warmth of a hug, simply = sensation
- hearing guided meditation, simply = sound
- feeling frown on face, simply = sensation

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that
helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

How do moods fit in to direct experience? Several times during the day, I
found it hard to look (at them). They don't seem to be thought, but somehow
still color direct experience.

I also found that having a clear determination not to think, but only to look
really helped in some significant way. Can't really put my finger on it, but
it seems to have brought some kind of ease to the whole inquiry.


Kind regards,
Hussain

[Anastacia42]

Hi Hussain

Good work on the exercise. Yes, DE is true & therefore we relax. All the added stuff is lies. We'll get to that shortly.

How do moods fit in to direct experience?

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Moods are essentially emotional. See above.

Try this next:

Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving,

~ Stacy

[raaveriya]

Hi Stacy,

Hope you are doing well. I have done the exercise as you directed.

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

I am sitting on a chair
I am hearing the fans
I am thinking about the verb for fans
I am drinking water
I am nodding at the waiter
I am wiping my mouth with a tissue
I am watching soccer on TV
I am thinking about my body
I am vaping
I am chewing betel nuts
I am thinking about visiting my brother

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

Breathing,
Hearing chit chat,
Hearing traffic,
Hearing fans,
Feeling tightness between eyes,
Adjusting posture,
Watching TV,
Feeling cold,
Chewing,
Waiting,
Seeing lights flicker,

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

Both of these seem to be true. But I have no doubts about the descriptions provided in (2). In this sense, (2) is truer.

2. What is here without labels?

I don't think I understand what is being asked. I dont know if there is or there isn't something here without labels. All I can be sure of is that there is a continuous flow of experience that can then be labeled after the fact.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Labels do not affect experience at all.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

I am honestly not sure. Halfway through recording (2) I adjusted my posture and sat a bit straighter. That naturally slowed down my breath and I felt a lot calmer.


Kind Regards
Hussain

Sent from my Redmi Note 6 Pro using Tapatalk

[Anastacia42]

Hi Hussain,

Let me help with this. And we need to help you get more attuned to the body Sensations, as well.

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
Both of these seem to be true. But I have no doubts about the descriptions provided in (2). In this sense, (2) is truer.

Yes, 2 is truer.

All I can be sure of is that there is a continuous flow of experience that can then be labeled after the fact.

Yes, there is an unlabeled flow of experience. Labels come later. That's what it is asking. I know it is odd wording, but these things are odd in words, no matter what.

Labels do not affect experience at all.

Correct!

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?
I am honestly not sure. Halfway through recording (2) I adjusted my posture and sat a bit straighter. That naturally slowed down my breath and I felt a lot calmer.

Okay, let's learn something new.

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.

We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.
[/b]
First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely. What is found?


If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

The Sun rises in the West is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I."

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" or "stressful" or any other emotion or label is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not a name for the Sensation itself, for example. Do you see that?


Loving,

~ Stacy

[raaveriya]

Hi Stacy,

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.

It blows my mind I have lived 30 years without having learned this.

We often lie every day & don't realize it.

Totally agree with this.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

True

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.
In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

This is so interesting

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

I do. I lied about my motivations for wanting to meet someone. I was lying to myself as well as my wife.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely. What is found?

Heavy and contracted.

I asked my wife the same question and she described the sensations in similar terms. How are labels such poor descriptors, yet still useful.

I will do the earlier exercise again and report back soon.


Kind regards,
Hussain

[Anastacia42]

That's great, Hussain . Can you imagine a world where everybody knows & follows this?

The labels are just a convenience. It is the Direct Experience of Sensation that we are looking at.

Loving,
Stacy