Seeking, constantly seeking

[KB1]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There is no I, it’s a construct, a thought, a story. There is just life and it is a falsehood created by thoughts which created a belief that I exists and I controls life, when really life just happens

There is a feeling that this is true but then there is a real resistance to it.

What are you looking for at LU?
Guidance and clarity. I am so confused. I am constantly seeking and trying to understand the idea that there no separate self. I’m also afraid that if I do wake up and realise there is no separate self I’ll loose my identity. I’ll loose my beliefs and I’m mostly afraid I’ll loose my belief in God or a heaven and that I’ll never see my mother again.

Having said all that I still know there is something else, I can feel it and that’s why I am continually seeking. I know life can happen in a different way.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Guidance ;) I would really just like to break down the barriers to the failure so far to see there isn’t a separate self. I’m reading liberation unleashed but I feel I need more help. I am very interested in someone helping me break down my fear with accepting or seeing there isn’t a separate self.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have undertaken IFS therapy for a number of years and I was on a retreat with the founder dick Schwartz. On that retreat I had an experience which I can only describe as peace/euphoria. I never felt anything like it before or since. Other than that I’m fairly new. I’m always looking and seeking. Constantly seeking. I’ve read the power of now also

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you know yourself to be a skeptical person, prone to doubt, I may not be the best guide for you. I never had any doubt. I can connect you with one of our other guides who did & who can guide you better than I.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

I’m also afraid that if I do wake up and realise there is no separate self I’ll loose my identity. I’ll loose my beliefs and I’m mostly afraid I’ll loose my belief in God or a heaven and that I’ll never see my mother again.

Before we start, I want to address these fears.

First, life will be much the same after awakening, just clearer & most, but not all, of the time more peaceful.

Second, if there is no "self," then clearly there is no "mother," no "god" and no "heaven." These are all made up stories like Santa Claus.

If you aren't willing to look at these stories, they will hold you back. It's up to you. If truth is more important than these tales, let's begin. If you aren't ready to see past these, nothing we show you here will help. I can't come between you & your own mind. That is up to you to question & resolve.

If you'd like to know more about this, I can recommend that you read "Gateless Gatecrashers," which you can download from our Resources tab under Books. Reading "Liberation Unleashed" is probably helping, too.
Also. Anthony Dilullo's book, "Awake - It's Your Turn" may be helpful. And there are others, too.

Loving,
Stacy

[Anastacia42]

Hi again,

I want to invite you to our Zoom meetings:

Our next one is: July 4, 2022 05:00 AM Canberra, Melbourne, Sydney

Then fortnightly

Jul 4, 2022 05:00 AM
Jul 18, 2022 05:00 AM
Aug 1, 2022 05:00 AM
Aug 15, 2022 05:00 AM

Join Zoom Meeting here

Meeting ID: Passcode: 083035" original_font_attr="-1" original_line_height_attr="" style="">869 9148 5768
Passcode: 083035

If this doesn't come out with a link, PM me your email & I'll forward the link.

Use https://dateful.com/time-zone-converter

to find the correct time for your timezone.

Much love,
Stacy

[Anastacia42]

That link isn't there.

Email vinceschubert@gmail.com to get the right link.

Thanks,
Stacy

[KB1]

Hi Stacy

Thank you very much for volunteering to be my guide

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.

I agree to post everyday

If you know yourself to be a skeptical person, prone to doubt, I may not be the best guide for you. I never had any doubt. I can connect you with one of our other guides who did & who can guide you better than I.

I don’t have any doubt that there is a different way to experience life. I do have questions/queries surrounding the idea of liberation ( is this doubt I’m not sure). If you consider this a doubt, let me know if you think I’d be better suited to a different guide.


I have read the disclaimer, what liberation unleashed is not and house rules. I understand all three.

How will life change?

I don’t believe life will change, my experience of life will change. I believe I will see, feel, hear etc things differently and this difference will be a more peaceful experience of life.

I have to say I typed the above knowing that I actually don’t know that. It’s just what I have read it to be.

How will you change?

I am not sure. I think from what I’ve read, the experience of life changes. My belief is that if I become liberated, I will simply accept or live what is. I won’t be living in my own head and listening/living my each and every thought

Life will continue as I know it but the experience will be different. More peaceful, brighter and lighter.

What will be different?

I will know there is no I ( I actually don’t really know what this means). I will live my life knowing life handles life and there is no control or management from me. Life will remain the same

What is missing?

I’m not sure I understand this question. Regarding life as it is now, nothing is missing. It’s more that there is too much/many thoughts. A constant chatter. A constant seeking for something else/clarity. Too much rather than something missing.

You can call me Kara.

If you aren't willing to look at these stories, they will hold you back. It's up to you. If truth is more important than these tales, let's begin

I am willing to explore the stories and see. I will admit it feels like you’ve punched a hole in my stomach when I read about the idea of there being no mother etc. but I am willing more than willing to work to see what you see.

Thank you again, I appreciate your time and energy.

Kara

[Anastacia42]

Hi Kara,

You're welcome!

You're being very brave. Trust me, if/when you see through these stories, it will be worth it.

What is missing?

I’m not sure I understand this question. Regarding life as it is now, nothing is missing. It’s more that there is too much/many thoughts. A constant chatter. A constant seeking for something else/clarity. Too much rather than something missing.

Yes. You got it.

Your expectations are mostly reasonable. And questioning is fine. Some people just have a terrible time letting go of doubt. They SEE & then don't believe that this is "it." You'll be fine.

What comes up when is read that there is no separate "self," that there never has been & never will be? That it is all a made up story?

Loving,

Stacy

[KB1]

Hi Stacy

Thank you for the kind reply. I’m looking forward to seeing.

I meant to say I’m in the UK. I’ll mainly respond in the evenings.

What comes up when I read that there is no separate "self," that there never has been & never will be? That it is all a made up story?

I thought about this a lot and below is what came up;

1. If there is no I, no self, what’s the point? What’s the meaning or how does it work?
2. If there is no self, does that mean there is nothing worthwhile? Achievements, future goals, love, relationships, joy etc. are these all fake constructs that don’t mean anything? That feels not real to say that.
3.Is there being no self the same as saying I don’t exist?

I ask these questions and there is a tension in my jaw and my chest. Also weirdly before I signed up to this forum I had a text book answer I had read or seen in relation to there being no self. I always thought I’d answer this question saying I understand there is no self but I don’t get it/feel it. But weirdly I don’t even feel I can say I understand there is no self now I’m doing this enquiry ( a step backwards perhaps) and my head is muddled thinking about why this is?

Sorry if this is convoluted and makes little sense!

With gratitude

Kara

[KB1]

Sorry Stacy one further thing came up

What comes up when I read that there is no separate "self," that there never has been & never will be? That it is all a made up story?

If there is no self


I know I have zero control over my life and I firmly believe that everything that happens in life happens regardless of any input from a Me. Everything I see as being mine in life has absolutely nothing to do with anything an I has done or not done.

I get that feeling very strongly that times but then it disappears for a time. The life I have is not really a life I have, it’s just a life that’s happening for whatever reason.

Again not sure if I’m articulating myself correctly

[Anastacia42]

You're doing fine.

That question checks for fears. You have some. We know about them. If they seem to get in your way let me know. The only things that can keep you from seeing that there is no self - and you're right no control, no free, will none of that - are expectation and fear.

Why is that? Because they keep you from experiencing thexperiencing the here and now. Here and now in a relaxed space is the only place that you can find no self.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Loving,

~ Stacy

[Anastacia42]

It looks like I missed some typos. Sometimes that happens. Usually you can tell what I meant.

[KB1]

Hi Stacy

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

I understand.

Thank you

Kara

[Anastacia42]

You're welcome, Kara. Okay, here's the first pointer:


Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same order. same form of words, everything.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

~ Stacy

[KB1]

Hi Stacy




I have carried out this task

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

On the tram

Listening to other people’s conversations, simply= Sound
Movement of tram, simply = sensation
Looking out the window at the canal, simply = image
Gum in mouth, simply = taste
Tram announcement, simply = sound
Thinking about labelling things, simply = thought

At home

Watching tennis,simply = images
Smelling dinner cooking, simply = smell
Hugging someone, simply= sensation
Listening to people talk,simply = sound
Thinking about everything going on in the kitchen, simply = thought
Admiring the roses, simply = image/colour
Thinking something is funny, simply =thought


Thank you

Kara

[Anastacia42]

Exactly, Kara, good!

Now, a couple of steps further:


Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving,

~ Stacy

[KB1]

Hi Stacy

I’ve completed this exercise. I was t really sure if I was supposed to do it in a quiet room/space.

First ten minutes

I am sitting upright in bed
I am writing
I am thinking
I am tired
I am feeling slightly cold
I am playing with my own
I am listening
I am hearing music
I am thinking and questioning

Second ten minutes
Listening
Listening
Thinking
Breathing
Relaxing
Writing
Lying on bed
Concentrating
Watching

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

I don’t know. Maybe the second list but I don’t know if I’m just saying that because I think it’s the correct answer

2. What is here without labels?

Things just happen if you don’t label them.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
The experience seemed to be lighter during the second exercise.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Yes during the first ten minutes, I felt the following

Tension in my jaw
Tight chest
Uneasy feeling

During the second ten minutes, the tension in my jaw subsided and my chest was no longer tight. I did not feel uneasy?

I struggled with this exercise. I had a strong thought that I must get it right and felt like I maybe didn’t do it correctly

Thank you

Kara