Truth

[ChuckV]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand in theory how the mind labels things and the labelling implies a me. I also understand how thoughts and the thinker and two sides of the same coin. However I can’t shatter the illusion and see reality as it is.

What are you looking for at LU?
Help with seeing clearly. Perhaps there are some beliefs I have left unquestioned. I want to know what the truth is, without a doubt. I’m tired of reading sages pointing at things and feeling that I get it but not really realising it.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Help with seeing the truth. Uncover my possible hidden beliefs. Realise my true nature. To be honest I don’t know what to expect because I’ve never had these conversations with any one. I have read many books and watched many videos.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Have mediated on and off for a while. Recently done self inquiry, been past a fear barrier. I can now rest in a thoughtless space while sitting but there has been no significant change in which I take myself to be.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

Yes, it sounds as if belief in a self is largely unquestioned.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you know yourself to be a skeptical person, prone to doubt, I may not be the best guide for you. I never had any doubt. I can connect you with one of our other guides who did & who can guide you better than I.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you?
What time zone are you in, please?

Loving,
Stacy

[ChuckV]

Hi Stacy, thank you for responding. I have read the disclaimer and I am happy to post daily, if I cannot for some reason I will let you know. I wouldn't say I am a skeptical person - I am usually quite accepting of things once I understand them. I don't have any doubt this is the truth I just can't see it and it is not in my experience.

You can call me Chuck, I am in New Zealand GMT+12.

How will life change?

Life will be more peaceful internally no matter what is happening externally. Perhaps there will be a better understanding of what life is and how best to live it.

How will you change?

There will be less reactivity. Less push and pull from thoughts. There will be happiness to just be and not feel like I have to do anything or get anything.

What will be different?

The way life and the external world is seen will be different. My internal state will be different - perhaps still thoughts and emotions etc but the ability to not get sucked into them.

What is missing?

The story of me and all the thoughts I have about having to do this and that. Thoughts about what other people think of me. Thoughts comparing myself to others or expectations.

I am not quite sure if you mean what is missing right now or what is missing after this process.

Thank you,

Chuck

[Anastacia42]

Hi Chuck,

Mostly reasonable expectations. Not too grandiose.

That last one meant what is missing right now? Maybe, what is missing for you to be happy? Or successful? Or something like that.

So, next question:

What comes up when is read that there is no separate self, never has been, never will be, that it is just an illusion?

Loving,

Stacy

[ChuckV]

That last one meant what is missing right now? Maybe, what is missing for you to be happy? Or successful? Or something like that.

In that case what is missing is clear seeing of reality. I am no longer sure about happiness or being successful as I feel they are both temporary and come and go, so it is not something worth chasing. I really want to know who or what I am - then whatever happens can happen.

What comes up when is read that there is no separate self, never has been, never will be, that it is just an illusion?

There is initially a sense of relief, almost like the pressure is gone. There is also a feeling of losing something - thoughts come up about my kids etc but I can see these are just thoughts. So there is still some resistance I guess as well as the wanting to accept it.

Thank you,

Chuck

[Anastacia42]

Hi Chuck

Very good. Yes, those are temporary. Even after doing no self, there are still things to work through, life to live, etc.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


~ Stacy

"Stop acting so small. You are the universe in ecstatic motion."

~ Rumi

[ChuckV]

Hi Stacy,

Yes I am clear about direct experience. I understand that those 6 are the only things we directly experience and the rest is just stories made up by the mind.

I did have a question about preference though - in all those direct experiences I may prefer 1 sound over the other, 1 taste over the other etc. What is that ? Is it just conditioning ? It doesn't feel like a thought.

Does that change with discovering there is no self?

Thank you,

Chuck

[Anastacia42]

Hi Chuck!

Sometimes I read these quickly & miss getting back to them. If that happens, please post again, so I have to look again, please. I'm grappling with a new computer at work & ran out of attention to these.

I did have a question about preference though - in all those direct experiences I may prefer 1 sound over the other, 1 taste over the other etc. What is that ? Is it just conditioning ? It doesn't feel like a thought.

Does that change with discovering there is no self

No, you'll still have preferences. They aren't as strong, though. One of my teachers described it as leaning in one direction or another.

Please try this:


Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. This means EXACTLY.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

~ Stacy

"Stop acting so small. You are the universe in ecstatic motion."

~ Rumi

[ChuckV]

Sometimes I read these quickly & miss getting back to them. If that happens, please post again, so I have to look again, please. I'm grappling with a new computer at work & ran out of attention to these.

That's all good. I'll do that next time.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. This means EXACTLY.

Brushing teeth - sound, sensation, image, taste, smell
Making coffee - smell, image, sensation, sound
Drinking coffee - taste, smell, sensation, image, sound
Sitting on couch - Sensation, image, sound, thoughts
Looking on phone - image, sensation, thoughts, sound
Watching a movie - image, sound, sensation, thoughts
Driving - image, sound, sensation, thoughts
Playing with kids - sound!, image, sensation, thoughts
Eating lunch - smell, taste, sound, image, sensation

Every time I was saying these labels in my head it felt like a thought so I could put down thought for all of them but I only did when other thoughts arose.

I'll keep doing this though, it was sort of fun - it helped me stay in the present whenever I was doing this.

Thank you,

Chuck

[Anastacia42]

Close.

Brushing teeth - sound, sensation, image, taste, smell
Making coffee - smell, image, sensation, sound
Drinking coffee - taste, smell, sensation, image, sound
Sitting on couch - Sensation, image, sound, thoughts
Looking on phone - image, sensation, thoughts, sound
Watching a movie - image, sound, sensation, thoughts
Driving - image, sound, sensation, thoughts
Playing with kids - sound!, image, sensation, thoughts
Eating lunch - smell, taste, sound, image, sensation

Close, but please do this again. Be much more specific on the left. Not just "brushing teeth," but specifics:

Holding toothbrush = Sensation
Tasting toothpaste = Taste
Seeing face in mirror = Seeing
Hearing toothbrush = Sound

Don't rattle off a clump of DE words. Really focus. Look at the examples. You're going to need this skill.

Every time I was saying these labels in my head it felt like a thought so I could put down thought for all of them but I only did when other thoughts arose.

Yes, that's fine.

And yes, kids are SO noisy!

Much love,
Stacy

[ChuckV]

Close, but please do this again. Be much more specific on the left. Not just "brushing teeth," but specifics:

Ok I'm with you.

Sitting on couch:

Feeling of sun on my skin - sensation
Noise of kids playing - sound
Book Im looking at at - Seeing
Thinking about making a coffee - thoughts

Mowing the lawn:

Looking at the lawn/backyard - seeing
Noise from lawnmower and AirPods - sound
Vibration of lawnower on my hand - sensation
scent of cut grass - smell

Watching kids sports

Watching the game - seeing
Sounds of kids and parents - sound
Smell of sausages - smell
Thinking about the game - thoughts
Cold wind on my skin - sensation

Looking on phone

Feel of phone in my hand - sensation
What's seen on the phone - Seeing
Thinking about what Im looking at - thoughts
Background noises - sound

Listening to music

Songs being heard - sound
Feeling the beat in my body - sensation


Thank you,


Chuck

[Anastacia42]

Good. Yes.

That will help you to do this one:


Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Much love,

~ Stacy

[ChuckV]

Ok I did the exercise, here is what I found.

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

I don't know if one is more true as they were both noticing what was happening. I did feel one felt simpler than the other. The adding "I am" to the noticing felt like an unnecessary addition - it wouldn't have been missed if it wasn't there.

2. What is here without labels?

What is here is what is here even if I don't label. Labelling it doesn't change that - it just seems to change how I perceive it somehow because as soon as I label it Im tapping into my prior experiences.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

It does affect the experience because it feels like you're adding something to the experience by describing it / labelling it.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Felt more relaxed second time around, not sure if this was because I was already sitting down for 10 minutes. But when I looked at the pages, I had written down about tightness in certain parts of the body the first time around. Second time around there was no mention of tightness anywhere.

Thank you, '

Chuck

[Anastacia42]

Good morning, Chuck

tightness in certain parts of the body the first time around. Second time around there was no mention of tightness anywhere.

Okay, yes, with the first one, you'll feel tightness. That's because "I" is a lie. Without "I" is truer

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.

We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.
[/b]
First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely. What is found?


If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

The Sun rises in the West is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I."

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not a name for the Sensation itself, for example. Do you see that?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
It does affect the experience because it feels like you're adding something to the experience by describing it / labelling it.

No. Labels only describe. Try the following to prove thar to yourself:

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is SEEN.

Loving

~ Stacy

[ChuckV]

Hi Stacy,

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Yes, I didn't tell my wife the whole truth about the cost of a purchase

What is found?

It's a feeling in the abdomen area of uneasiness or tension. I tried remembering other events and saying things like 2+2 = 8. The same sensation presents.

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not a name for the Sensation itself, for example. Do you see that?

Yes I can see how that is an interpretation. I guess it feels tense, tight and uncomfortable.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is SEEN.

What is seen is the colour red regardless of the label saying otherwise. Completely understand that now. I think I did earlier too but I still had this idea that the label you give something somehow affects your perception of it, because by labelling you are adding something extra to what is perceived.

In this example however I can see clearly no matter what label is given to the colour red - it is still seen as red.

Thank you,

Chuck