Psychological freedom

[BreathLess]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? By seeing that there is no real, inherent "self", I understand achieving a clear vision and understanding on the level of direct experience of the illusory nature of the terms "I, Me, Myself, Mine". All these notions are deeply rooted in the mind, and they are just a result of the conditioning mainly with language and various other factors.

What are you looking for at LU? I am looking for psychological freedom amidst the turbulence of day-to-day life based on a deeper understanding of the true nature of the mind. Better understanding of the nature of my mind, and as a result a happier life, better psychological and physiological health.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? Opportunity to ask questions and be asked questions
so that I can be directed to direct observation and understanding of the true nature of the mind. To receive information about the experiences of the presenter, and to compare how they relate to mine. To receive advice on how to understand my mind in practice, with what specific practical methods.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? Yoga,Yoga nidra,Antar mouna,Vipassana meditation,Buddhism

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Luchana]

Hi Peter,

and welcome to the forum.
I'm glad that you made it here. As we spoke - let's have a chat and see how it goes. I am not going to teach you anything, this is not an intellecrual discussion. I am going to aks you questions, that's my job here so to speak. Yours is to look at your own direct experience and reply. It is that simple.

For example - If I ask you what is the colour of your socks today you can think and remember what socks you've pick this morning, or you can just look and see what colour are they really.

Also there are no wrong or right answers, so don’t worry - it is all ok :-)

Just reply with honesty.
I read your intro and something pops up.

Better understanding of the nature of my mind, and as a result a happier life, better psychological and physiological health.

Happier life, better psychological and physiological health may or may not happen. For each one is different.
We all want a better life - that’s natural for us as human beings.
But old traumas,psychological and physiological issues. hidden wounds are not going to disappear with a magic stick, just because the illusion of the self is seen through. The conditioning plays as it plays and desolving old stuf may last to the end of the living orhanizsm.
Actually freedom is not from, but WITH.

To receive information about the experiences of the presenter, and to compare how they relate to mine. To receive advice on how to understand my mind in practice, with what specific practical methods.

I wount give you any advice. All I can do is to point. It is you who have to look. I can't look on your behalf.
And listening to stories about other's experiences wount help at all. Looking and checking how it is for in your own direct experience is what makes the difference. There is also no practice invloved here - just simple plain looking. That's all.
How do we look and what is Direct/Actual Experience? Everything we can experience with the 5 senses+thought (noticing the thought, but not what content of the thought is ) Something like "Oh, there is a thought here".

So, when we say Direct Experience we mean - what is it that we see, what is it that we hear, what is it that we taste, what is it that we can smell, what is it that we can touch + thought, but not what thought is about.

So reading above can you look at these questions and reply:

What is mind when you look at it in this very moment?

How mind is experienced exactly?




Much love,
Luchana

[BreathLess]

Q:What is mind when you look at it in this very moment?[/b]

The noise of cars coming from the open window and chirping of birds, a sight of a desktop in front of me and objects around it, cool flor under bare feet, thoughts appear and disappear, coming and going


Q:How the mind is experienced exactly?

A: "Mind" is a term, word, or notion. Beyond this notion, I can't see any mind, only sounds, sights, and many thoughts. The very description of these phenomena is a concept, too.

[Luchana]

Hi Peter.

Can you please take a look how to use the quote function?
It's easier for our communication here and our chat goes smoothly in a way :-)

Here you can see how
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

The noise of cars coming from the open window and chirping of birds, a sight of a desktop in front of me and objects around it, cool flor under bare feet, thoughts appear and disappear, coming and going

And what of these makes mind?

"Mind" is a term, word, or notion. Beyond this notion, I can't see any mind, only sounds, sights, and many thoughts. The very description of these phenomena is a concept, too.

Right. Mind is just a word usefull for communication, but there is no such thing called "mind" in reality.

So let's look at thoughts closer.

Tell me what do you do precisely in order to think?

How do you make a thought into existence?

Can you follow a thought to its destination?

Can you trace a thought back from where it has come?


Take your time
Much love,
Luchana

[BreathLess]

The noise of cars coming from the open window and chirping of birds, a sight of a desktop in front of me and objects around it, cool flor under bare feet, thoughts appear and disappear, coming and going"

And what of these makes mind?

The "mind",at least on the level of mere experience is not separate of the bird's songs,the floor's coolness felt by the bare feet , trivial day-to-day sights, or boring thoughts arising and disappearing . Practiacally,as a feeling, from the experiencial perspective, It is simply identical to these appearances .

Tell me what do you do precisely in order to think?

I can't do anything about thoughts. Practically nothing can be done on controlling the thoughts. Thoughts come and go on their own accord, whenever, however, wherever they "want" themselves

How do you make a thought into existence?

It seems that I evoke thoughts.But what and who does evoke the previos thought which suggest that I,Me evoke the current thought?No one.So,in fact,I don't make thought into existance.

Can you follow a thought to its destination?

If i follow a thought to its source,I eventualy get to something that feels like nothingness,limitless space,undefinite circumstance.Cosidering its final destination,again ,a thought disaappaers.

Can you trace a thought back from where it has come?

If i follow a thought to its source,I eventualy get to something that feels like nothingness,emptiness.

[Luchana]

Hi Peter.

The "mind",at least on the level of mere experience is not separate of the bird's songs,the floor's coolness felt by the bare feet , trivial day-to-day sights, or boring thoughts arising and disappearing . Practiacally,as a feeling, from the experiencial perspective, It is simply identical to these appearances .

There is a soud, a sensations, sight + thoughts. These are happening yes.
But there is no such thing as mind. Mind is a word, a label.
Is this clear?

You did a good looking at the questions. Let's bring it closer.

I can't do anything about thoughts. Practically nothing can be done on controlling the thoughts. Thoughts come and go on their own accord, whenever, however, wherever they "want" themselves

Is a thougth some entity with volition and choice to want ot not want something?


What can a thought do?

Can a thougth think?

It seems that I evoke thoughts.But what and who does evoke the previos thought which suggest that I,Me evoke the current thought?No one.So,in fact,I don't make thought into existance.

It seems, but the question is - is this true in reality?

If i follow a thought to its source,I eventualy get to something that feels like nothingness,limitless space,undefinite circumstance.Cosidering its final destination,again ,a thought disaappaers.

If i follow a thought to its source,I eventualy get to something that feels like nothingness,emptiness.

nice:-)
So is it possible to find or ooint a center from which thoughts appear?
And in which they dissapear?

Much love,
Luchana

[BreathLess]

There is a sound, a sensations, sight + thoughts. These are happening yes.
But there is no such thing as mind. Mind is a word, a label.
Is this clear?

Yes ,the mind is a word which is used to describe the place where one's experience happens.But I can't experience the mind in the way I can experince yellow.I feel the mind not directly but as and through its manifistations.

You did a good looking at the questions. Let's bring it closer.
I can't do anything about thoughts. Practically nothing can be done on controlling the thoughts. Thoughts come and go on their own accord, whenever, however, wherever they "want" themselves

Is a thougth some entity with volition and choice to want ot not want something?

In my experince,the tought is not an entity with volition and choice to want something.It is an appearance as ,say, a sound or smell ,and thought appears and desappears in same manner and in same "place" as sounds and smells do.The thought gain force and takes over when I forget to notice it as a thought ,and fail to recognise it as thought.Unfortunately,this is very often the case.

What can a thought do?

It is harmless if it is noticed and recognised.If not it can drive me crazy,and in fact it does it.

Can a thougth think?

I don't think so.

It seems that I evoke thoughts.But what and who does evoke the previos thought which suggest that I,Me evoke the current thought?No one.So,in fact,I don't make thought into existance.
It seems, but the question is - is this true in reality?

It is an illusion that I can create thoughts.Say,I believe that I can make a thought for a big white green eyed cat into existence.And thus I may believe that I produce thoughts.But in this case I ignore the fact that "big white green eyed cat" thought is preceded by a thread of thoughts which remain unnoticed by Me,and these unnoticed and unrecognized set of thoughts come completely by themselves,out of nothing,and actually they are that brings the "cat thought" into existence.

If i follow a thought to its source,I eventualy get to something that feels like nothingness,limitless space,undefinite circumstance.Cosidering its final destination,again ,a thought disaappaers.
If i follow a thought to its source,I eventualy get to something that feels like nothingness,emptiness.
nice:-)
So is it possible to find or ooint a center from which thoughts appear?
And in which they dissapear?

The center of thought ,the centar of attention,in my experience, desappears once I try to look for It.And then remains nothing but appearances,sounds,smells,sights,a very refreshing exercise!

[Luchana]

Hi Peter.

Yes ,the mind is a word which is used to describe the place where one's experience happens

But is there such place in reality?
Where is this place?
Can you point it with the finger?
The way you are pointing the screen?

The thought gain force and takes over when I forget to notice it as a thought ,and fail to recognise it as thought.Unfortunately,this is very often the case.

How exactly thought is gaining force?
And who or what is it that is forgeting?
Does thougth know to who or what it is speaking too?

It is an illusion that I can create thoughts.Say,I believe that I can make a thought for a big white green eyed cat into existence.And thus I may believe that I produce thoughts.But in this case I ignore the fact that "big white green eyed cat" thought is preceded by a thread of thoughts which remain unnoticed by Me,and these unnoticed and unrecognized set of thoughts come completely by themselves,out of nothing,and actually they are that brings the "cat thought" into existence.

Nice :-)
Yes, there is a thougth with a content "big white green eyed cat" - this is true.
But in reality here now - there is nothing like this. No cat. Nothing at all.
So the content of a thougth is not REAL.

Do you see the difference between thought and a thought content?
During the day try to pay attention how many thoughts are for something real which is happening at the moment and how many are pure fiction, fantasy, imagination.

Let me know how it goes.

Much love,
Luchana

[BreathLess]

Hi Peter.

Am I not "BreathLess" here?🤔

Yes ,the mind is a word which is used to describe the place where one's experience happens
But is there such place in reality?Where is this place?Can you point it with the finger?The way you are pointing the screen?

Experience happens immediately and smoothly.To answer where exactly experinence of say ,a blue fish, takes place, is to show to the space "somewhere" in front of me,and this the same place where the noise of keaboards buttons which i am pressing right now, happens.This is not a particular "place".Rather it is "something" pretty indefinable ,and elusive,and at the same time it somehow manages to create whatever feeling and perception!

The thought gain force and takes over when I forget to notice it as a thought ,and fail to recognise it as thought.Unfortunately,this is very often the case.
How exactly thought is gaining force?

Thought gains power when it I get lost in it,in its thread.When I am catched in the web of thoughts which involved me another thoughts.This happen much easier when I am tired or a strong emotion have arisen.When thoughts takes over ,I ,Me appears and I,Me,Self get in charge

And who or what is it that is forgeting?Does thougth know to who or what it is speaking too?

It is quite paradoxical.When,being,say "in flow"meaning noticing a thought as a thought and thus manage to drop I,Me,there is no one neither to recognise nor to forget recognising,only "dancing" as you called it in your talks.The I,Me pops up only I am lost in thoughts.So,I guess that the One who forgets or rememebers or speaks and critisizes ,is the same fictional character who we want to eliminate so badly.

It is an illusion that I can create thoughts.Say,I believe that I can make a thought for a big white green eyed cat into existence.And thus I may believe that I produce thoughts.But in this case I ignore the fact that "big white green eyed cat" thought is preceded by a thread of thoughts which remain unnoticed by Me,and these unnoticed and unrecognized set of thoughts come completely by themselves,out of nothing,and actually they are that brings the "cat thought" into existence.
Nice :-)
Yes, there is a thougth with a content "big white green eyed cat" - this is true.
But in reality here now - there is nothing like this. No cat. Nothing at all.
So the content of a thougth is not REAL.

Do you see the difference between thought and a thought content?

Thank you for suggestion!Yes ,I think that I understand it.

During the day try to pay attention how many thoughts are for something real which is happening at the moment and how many are pure fiction, fantasy, imagination.

I will try,thank You, and the best of luck!


Let me know how it goes.

Much love,
Luchana

[Luchana]

Hi Petar,

Am I not "BreathLess" here?🤔

Well, yes. But since I know your name there is a preference to call you like this. If you don't mind :-)

The I,Me pops up only I am lost in thoughts.So,I guess that the One who forgets or rememebers or speaks and critisizes ,is the same fictional character who we want to eliminate so badly.

But what is this "me" you are refering to?

How "me" shows up at experience?
What is "me" made off?
And where exactly it is ?

In the room?
In the head?
Or in the fridge?

Go and look for it the way you are looking your keys.

Much love,
Luchana

[BreathLess]

 Hi Luchana!
Of course ,I don't mind you calling me Peter :)

The I,Me pops up only I am lost in thoughts.So,I guess that the One who forgets or rememebers or speaks and critisizes ,is the same fictional character who we want to eliminate so badly.

But what is this "me" you are refering to?

If I start looking for the I,Me,Self, who , in theory, should be seeing and orchestrating what and how happens in the world ,I can't find anything but thoughts.So,this I, Me,Director, doesn't feel as something visible , tangible,material, as my palm or t-shirt does.It is mystical and elusive as Yetti.

How "me" shows up at experience?

It shows up more as a term,symbol,meme rather than a particular feeling. The term "green lizard" evokes a certain image whereas "I" doesn't.

What is "me" made off?

It is made of a set of thoughts,I guess.

And where exactly it is ?In the room?
In the head?
Or in the fridge?
Go and look for it the way you are looking your keys.

It feels like it is somewhere behind eyes.
But once I try getting its "google map coordinates" with higher accuracy,it disappears as a ghost.:)
So ,it seems being bihind eyes but can't be find there.Same with other suspect sites as room ,couch or smartphone screen.
When I am looking for it vanishes.

[BreathLess]

Can I edit text here once it's submitted and how?🤔

[Luchana]

Hi Peter.

sorry for delay.

If I start looking for the I,Me,Self, who , in theory, should be seeing and orchestrating what and how happens in the world ,I can't find anything but thoughts.So,this I, Me,Director, doesn't feel as something visible , tangible,material, as my palm or t-shirt does.It is mystical and elusive as Yetti.

Nice :-)
So no me to be found in reality.
And does a thougth about a Yetti make a real one?
Does a thought about a me make a real me?

It is made of a set of thoughts,I guess.

Why don't you look again to be sure?

How "set of thoughts" is experienced EXACTLY?


[

It feels like it is somewhere behind eyes.
But once I try getting its "google map coordinates" with higher accuracy,it disappears as a ghost.:)
So ,it seems being bihind eyes but can't be find there.Same with other suspect sites as room ,couch or smartphone screen.
When I am looking for it vanishes.

Isn't it strange? The moment when it is looked at - it vanishes.
Let's look closer to the feeling of me "somewhere behind eyes."

Is it persona?

If yes - what makes a feeling personal?

Do thoughts have an extra power to do this?

Close your eyes, take two three breaths and examine:

Look for the feeling/sensation labeled "behind the eyes"

Stay with it for a while.

Notice what thoughts are saying about it.

And check what is really happen in experience.

How is it known that this feeling behind the eyes is me?

Does the feeling itself knows that it is a feeling of me?

What brings this information here?

What’s happen if you rename “feeling behind the eyes” with just a feeling?

Can I edit text here once it's submitted and how?🤔

nope... once the text is placed there is no turning back :-)

Much love.
Luchana

[BreathLess]

If I start looking for the I,Me,Self, who , in theory, should be seeing and orchestrating what and how happens in the world ,I can't find anything but thoughts.So,this I, Me,Director, doesn't feel as something visible , tangible,material, as my palm or t-shirt does.It is mystical and elusive as Yetti.
Nice :-)
So no me to be found in reality.
And does a thougth about a Yetti make a real one?

A thought about Yetti or even James Bond doesn't make them real,it feels like an image,which run through the thing called "mind" that itself is an image too.

Does a thought about a me make a real me?

It doesn't

It is made of a set of thoughts,I guess.
Why don't you look again to be sure?
How "set of thoughts" is experienced EXACTLY?

A set of thoughts when looked closely is felt as emptiness,notingness,space

It feels like it is somewhere behind eyes.
But once I try getting its "google map coordinates" with higher accuracy,it disappears as a ghost.:)
So ,it seems being bihind eyes but can't be find there.Same with other suspect sites as room ,couch or smartphone screen.
When I am looking for it vanishes.
Isn't it strange? The moment when it is looked at - it vanishes.
Let's look closer to the feeling of me "somewhere behind eyes."

Is it persona?

No,it is not a persona,an individual.

If yes - what makes a feeling personal?

It is not a persona or an individual.The place where it is felt,"behind the face" which place is perceived as a "center of my personality" is reason why it feels as something personal and intimate

Do thoughts have an extra power to do this?

Usually they have power to do what they want.If and when noticed ,however,they don't

Close your eyes, take two three breaths and examine:

Look for the feeling/sensation labeled "behind the eyes"

Stay with it for a while.

Notice what thoughts are saying about it.

And check what is really happen in experience.

How is it known that this feeling behind the eyes is me?

Does the feeling itself knows that it is a feeling of me?

What brings this information here?

What’s happen if you rename “feeling behind the eyes” with just a feeling?

Thought are saying that I am tehre,behind my face,into the skul.However,as a mere experience there is only rough sensations and no I could be find.
If I simply rename “feeling behind the eyes” with just a feeling ,I experience freedom and space without any need to define your this process of "being" with any thoughts.

[Luchana]

Hi Peter and welcome back,

A thought about Yetti or even James Bond doesn't make them real,it feels like an image,which run through the thing called "mind" that itself is an image too.

yes, exactly.

A set of thoughts when looked closely is felt as emptiness,notingness,space

So no set of thoughts. Good.

Usually they have power to do what they want.If and when noticed ,however,they don't

Mmm, so by who or what are the thoughts noticed?

Thought are saying that I am tehre,behind my face,into the skul.However,as a mere experience there is only rough sensations and no I could be find.
If I simply rename “feeling behind the eyes” with just a feeling ,I experience freedom and space without any need to define your this process of "being" with any thoughts.

Nice, no need for definition yes. Totaly.

Next:

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened)

Take you time and let me know what you find.

Much love,
Luchana