Guidance

[NikkiAV]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? I keep asking myself, who is in this body? Who or what is there? what is actually real? what do i really know? this body moves, sees, loves, heals, experiences but what is doing it? the only answer I have is I dont know.

What are you looking for at LU? I was told one of the mentors helped my friend going through his own process also. I guess someone experienced to guide me in this journey. I believe in synchronicities, why was this website mentioned? I dont know. I have no expectations. I was told that there might be a series of exercises to go deeper into this process- perhaps that is why I came? But really i have no expectations, this journey continues regardless.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? Not sure, right now i'm not sure of anything. I have been through quite a bender of a weekend and it seems there was something of me that has left this body. I'm not quite sure what is going on, and I guess some experienced person to guide in this?

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? i live in Auroville, a community which is at its heart spiritual. I have been searching for many years, with the past few being increasingly leading me to be radically honest and vulnerable, to look deep into my shadows and face the edges of myself. I have surrrendered, looked for death of this created self and slowly over time shifted into a much deeper version of this being, whoever it is - but the path never ends and there is so much more to go.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[warissem]

Hi

I am glad to accompany you to see through the illusion of a separate self.

During our dialog, some rules must be respected :

Come here at least once a day (don't wait expressely for emails, sometimes it does not work) and answer to my questions : the answer must be given from direct experience not from memory nor from what you read or heard. Direct experience is the clue : looking at direct experience (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations)

Read the disclaimer text here : viewtopic.php?f=16&t=221
Learn how to use the quote function here : viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Best for you

Warissem

[NikkiAV]

Dear Warissem,

Thank you for the offer to accompany me through this journey. Apologies that this is late, i will check the forum rather than wait for mails.

Please let me know how to proceed.

Light,
N

[warissem]

Hi Light

Yes, check in this forum every day to look at my questions. First of all, you have to be familiar with the method which is used here.

I ask questions.
You let the question sink for some time. You look and write down what is SEEN as the answer.
Looking is happening as direct experience : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations. Thoughts and concepts are used only for communication here.

Example of looking at direct experience : when I asked what is the color of the sky today ?
There are two ways of giving the answer :

1) Guess the answer : go to your memory of the color of the sky in the morning then give the answer
2) Get up, open the window, LOOK at the sky and SEE the answer : blue or whatever.

That having been said, describe direct experience of what is happening here now (where you are).

Kind regards

Warissem

[NikkiAV]

describe direct experience of what is happening here now (where you are).

Hi Warissem,

Direct experience of what is happening here now is my body's sensations on lying on the bed, the softness, the pressure, the sound of the fan, birds and construction. The touch of the fingers typing out this answer, the movement of the hands. There is also something that is enabling the typing of this answer, but i dont know what.

Nik

[warissem]

Hi Nik

There is also something that is enabling the typing of this answer, but i dont know what.

In direct experience, you see fingers typing on the keyboard. Then what is said above is a thought story, do you see this ? It is a belief that there must be an actor, a doer, a thinker, a walker, ... You are here to see through this belief.

I propose an exercise for you.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Best to you

Warissem

[NikkiAV]

Where are they coming from and going to?

They seem to come from nowhere and disappear there again

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

It feels like sometimes i willed a particular thought into appearing. Other times they just came.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

When i just observed, no i could not make anyhting happen that wasnt going to happen anyway. But sometimes it felt like this 'I' character would go in and make the thoughts really fast, sometimes I could shout in my head - and then it felt like I was making it happen

Can you predict your next thought?

No. Even when I think "i" am making it happen, I could not predict what this I was going to want to do next.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

I first answered this: No. Not for more than a few seconds, I guess if I really willed it, it could go longer, but that look a lot of energy already.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

I don't know. I really tried to see for myself whether I could choose, and somehow I couldnt choose it. They come anyway.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

It feels like sometimes I can. Othertimes not.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Not for me. If i see a glimpse of it, it feels like i can squash it, but then i have already thought it.

[warissem]

Hi Nik

They seem to come from nowhere and disappear there again

Yes

It feels like sometimes i willed a particular thought into appearing. Other times they just came.

Do you see that "the willing of a particular thought to appear" is already appearing as a thought ?

When i just observed, no i could not make anyhting happen that wasnt going to happen anyway. But sometimes it felt like this 'I' character would go in and make the thoughts really fast, sometimes I could shout in my head - and then it felt like I was making it happen

Look at direct experience (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching or sensations) and describe this “I” for me.

No. Even when I think "i" am making it happen, I could not predict what this I was going to want to do next.

Yes

I first answered this: No. Not for more than a few seconds, I guess if I really willed it, it could go longer, but that look a lot of energy already.

The same comment as previously : do you see that “willing” is a thought ?

I don't know. I really tried to see for myself whether I could choose, and somehow I couldnt choose it. They come anyway.

Yes

It feels like sometimes I can. Othertimes not.

Can you tell me how the choice id done ? Can you know a thought before it appears ?

Not for me. If i see a glimpse of it, it feels like i can squash it, but then i have already thought it.

Yes

Best wishes

Warissem

[NikkiAV]

Dear Warissem,

Do you see that "the willing of a particular thought to appear" is already appearing as a thought ?

yes. its like taking a look at another level. and it is indeed just another thought.

Look at direct experience (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching or sensations) and describe this “I” for me.

I cannot describe this 'i' through any of that - i cant see, feel, taste or touch it. It comes as emotions, it comes as thoughts, it comes as the driver of this ship, but i cannot find it anywhere or have a direct experience of it with my body.

No. Even when I think "i" am making it happen, I could not predict what this I was going to want to do next.

Yes

The same comment as previously : do you see that “willing” is a thought ?

yes.

Can you tell me how the choice id done ? Can you know a thought before it appears ?

again, it comes back to the same thought that thinks its thinking - it feels like this thought can control the other thought - but it is just yet another layer of thought which i cant trace back to any direct experience.

[warissem]

Hi Nik

I cannot describe this 'i' through any of that - i cant see, feel, taste or touch it.

Yes

It comes as emotions,

Emotions are motions in the body (expansion or contraction) : Is “I” a motion, an emotion ? Are you the anger or the joy ?

it comes as thoughts,

Yes.

it comes as the driver of this ship, but i cannot find it anywhere or have a direct experience of it with my body

How can “something” which it is not found anywhere, as you said, be the driver of the ship ? Describe what do you mean by “the ship” and by “the driver”.

What is arising when you read this :

There is no you, no separate self, no Nik in any shape or form.

Warissem

[NikkiAV]

Hi Warissem,

Is “I” a motion, an emotion ? Are you the anger or the joy ?

No, the 'i' isnt an emotion. the anger comes. the joy comes. and they go also.

How can “something” which it is not found anywhere, as you said, be the driver of the ship ? Describe what do you mean by “the ship” and by “the driver”.

'the ship' seems to be this collection of identities, emotions, patterns of behaviour, opinions and thoughts
'the driver' is the thought that calls itself 'nik', or 'I' that seems to be the link between them all, that feels like it is controlling the expression of the above. yet, if i try to experience this driver directly and trace its origin - I cannot.

What is arising when you read this :

There is no you, no separate self, no Nik in any shape or form.

A profound peace.

Warissem
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[warissem]

Hi Nik

'the ship' seems to be this collection of identities, emotions, patterns of behaviour, opinions and thoughts
'the driver' is the thought that calls itself 'nik', or 'I' that seems to be the link between them all, that feels like it is controlling the expression of the above. yet, if i try to experience this driver directly and trace its origin - I cannot.

You are describing yourself, Nik, as it is thought, OK ? But when you look directly, you don't find it. Now : does "what is seen" have more credit than thoughts ? All the illusion of a separate self resides in thoughts. You have to remind yourself to come back to direct experience : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching or sensations.

Now, you look if there is an "I", Nik as a controller or a decision maker.

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?

Kind regards

Warissem

[NikkiAV]

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

Nothing. I've done this exercise a few times now and i cant find anything that is choosing. It seems to come from nowhere..

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

No.

What is it that is controlling the hand?

Absolutely no one, nothing.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No.

Can anything be found that makes the hand move?

No.. its so strange that it is coming from nowhere.

How is the decision made?

By a thought.

Is this it? it feels so strange that it is all coming from nowhere and that there is nothing to be found. For the past couple of weeks i've been feeling this more and more and the world feels slightly wonky. Yet on somedays there is a lot of sadness and then i feel closer to my old self than otherwise when there is a lot of peace. But even then it is easier to not identify with the sadness than ever before.

[warissem]

Hi Nik

How is the decision made?

By a thought.

You say that decision is made by a thought. When eyes are open, is there a thought deciding to see ?
Is there a thought deciding to here ? or to smell or to taste ?

This another exercise for you.

1. Can you see a self making you leave the bed?
Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up come from? What makes the body get up? Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body?


2. 'On a count of 5, raise either your left or right arm, or not.' Dead simple.

3. Can you choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?

4. Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next thought that will arise?

5. Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction etc) of the physical sensation, that will arise next?

6. Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?

7. Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?

8. Ask the client to go to another room, pick a random object and bring it back to the computer. Ask questions to why they decided to choose that object.

9. Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does. Focus on focussing, watch attention itself. Do you move it? Or it moves by itself? Hold focus on breath. See how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Is this something you control?

What moves attention? Is thinking in control of attention?
Describe what you see.

Kind regards

Warissem

[NikkiAV]

Hi Warissem,

You say that decision is made by a thought. When eyes are open, is there a thought deciding to see ?
Is there a thought deciding to here ? or to smell or to taste ?

No when eyes are open seeing, hearing, tasting happens automatically. There is a choice made whether to breathe through the nose or mouth but i cannot find who chooses that, it seems that the 'choice' also happens automatically.

1. Can you see a self making you leave the bed?
Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up come from? What makes the body get up? Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body?

No I cannot see a self that is making me leave the bed. The 'decision', 'command' seems to come from nowhere. The body gets up on a signal which cannot be traced back.

2. 'On a count of 5, raise either your left or right arm, or not.' Dead simple.

Done. Again cannot find a self that is guiding this.

3. Can you choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?

No. Sleep seems to be come from nowhere. The eyes close (again, cannot find who is doing that), thoughts slow (cannot trace how that is happening, there seems to be no decider) and out of nowhere sleep happened.

4. Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next thought that will arise?

No I cannot. Even when I think 'next I will think about my dog', this very thought itself I did not choose - it came from nowhere. Seems every thougt that feels like a choice is being made is deceptive, because there is a previous layer of thought and I cannot find where that layer comes from.

5. Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction etc) of the physical sensation, that will arise next?

No. I cannot make the quality of what I touch or sense change from whatever it is. My first thought was' oh but I can move my hand and decide what i want to touch and therefore have a degree of control over the physical sensations', but immediately afterward the question came of who is deciding the movement of the hand? and that cannot be found.

6. Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?

No. i cannot choose the emotion, mind state, attitude that was coming. There seems to be nothing here that is choosing. Experience is happening by itself.

7. Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?

No, i did this exercise multiple times and I did not know what number would be chosen. It appeared from nowhere.

8. Ask the client to go to another room, pick a random object and bring it back to the computer. Ask questions to why they decided to choose that object.

Choice was made first on the basis of feeling lazy and not wanting to leave the bed. But who is feeling lazy? the answer forst comes 'I' am feeling lazy. but when i ask where is the 'I' I cant find it. when i ask who is the 'i' the only asnwer i can directly experience is 'i dont know'. Every thing else like 'I' am a construction of idenity all that is a thought which i cannot trace, 'i' seems to be something i cannot directly experience or trace back.

when picking up a random object, decision seems to be made automatically, i cannot trace how it happens. a thought arises to pick up the objext sometimes, and yet whether i pick it up or not seems to be controlled by something else. when i try to find what is controlling that decision, i cannot find it, and it seems to be happening by itself.

9. Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does. Focus on focussing, watch attention itself. Do you move it? Or it moves by itself? Hold focus on breath. See how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Is this something you control?

Attention is moving by itself. It cannot be traced to a source. Sometimes it is directed at something specific like the breath, other times it moves automatically. When attention is directed to the breath, i cannot find who or what is directing it. Even the directing of focus seems to happen automatically out of nowhere.

What moves attention? Is thinking in control of attention?
Describe what you see.

Attention seems to move by itself. Sometmes without thinking, and other times with the thought that arises to move it somewhere specific. But the thought to direct it also comes by itself, automatically.


Light,
Nik
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