I just want to know the truth of who and what I am

[SJWilla]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
No self means that you no longer identify with the thought stream. To know who and what I really am once this dis-identification is understood experientially not just intellectually.

What are you looking for at LU?
I have had a 'non-dual glimpse' but have only recently felt a renewed sense to keep going in disbelieving the thought stream, to realize the fear that came after the non-dual glimpse was part of this and I didn't have to stop there. So now I am ready to keep going to fully dis-identify from the thought-identity.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to find someone who understands what I am going through and can offer guidance or assistance through whatever steps I must go through. As I mentioned earlier, for 8 years, after a non-dual glimpse I became incredibly fearful but had no community or teacher and so did not go further all the while knowing what I had experienced was the truth of who I am, and I was wishing to 'return' (even though I know it's always there) but afraid of it. It would be nice to have someone as a guide if I were to experience a difficult or confusing stage in this process or be able to offer pointers to direct myself as I have mostly been on my own.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have done much inquiry and that has been extraordinarily effective. While I am currently thought-identified, this initial awakening/non-dual glimpse I had, a lot of anxiety and suffering left and never returned. Though certainly some has cropped up and I have had to uncover/realize/disbelieve things in the 8 years since. I meditate but not a set schedule and I have never belonged to a spiritual group though do have a friend who helped guide me in the early stages but know I am at a place where I must go further and am really at a place to face this fear I've had since the first glimpse.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[warissem]

Hi

What is your mother tongue ?
Do you want to be guided in your mother tongue or in english ?

Warissem

[SJWilla]

Hi Warissem,

My mother tongue is English... so guided in English please :)

Thanks,
SJ

[warissem]

Hi

I am glad to make some steps with you and help you see through the illusion of a separate self.

During our dialog, some rules must be respected :

Come here at least once a day (don't wait expressely for emails, sometimes it does not work)
Leave aside all books, audios, videos about spirituality
Be honest with yourself when giving answers to my questions : the answer must be given from direct experience not from memory nor from what you read or heard. Direct experience is the clue : looking at direct experience (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations)

Read the disclaimer text here : viewtopic.php?f=16&t=221
Learn how to use the quote function here : viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Kind regards

Warissem

[SJWilla]

Hi Warissem,

Thank you. I will be sure to refer to my direct experience when answering.

Best,
SJ

[warissem]

Hi

Seeing through the illusion of a separate self does not mean that there is something to lose. In the daily experience, you are living as your true nature, that is only the thoughts which say otherwise. The illusion of a separate self, resides in thoughts. What is seen right now, will be seen. You will continue to pay your bills, gather with family and friends. There will be no great change. The sole thing to be lost is a belief, something which is not substantial. For a child who was believing in Santa Claus, what is the lost when this belief falls down. Then, there is no reason for fear. Do you see that ?

Right now, what are you, what is "I" in your own words : the answer must be given through direct experience (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching or sensations). Thoughts are seen but don't lean on them : concepts are used to communicate.

Kind regards

Warissem

[SJWilla]

Hi Warissem,

Then, there is no reason for fear. Do you see that ?

I have started to see this. In recent weeks I have really begun to see that these are thoughts I believe. Such as "You will not be able to function in the world." or "You will not be able to write creatively if you awaken." or "You will not belong. You will not be able to be a part of anything or have deep relationships if you awaken. You will be alone." I now counter these by paying attention and stating "That is an I narrative", or "Thought" or just paying attention to feelings of fear. These thoughts have lessened but they do still come along and they seem to be very convincing since the fear feels so strong. The other reason I likely still 'believe' them at first is because when I did have the glimpse of true awakening years ago, afterwards, even though I returned to a dual-state, or a thought-identified state, I lost a lot of previous beliefs and attachments, and they never returned (which is great), but I also lost interest in some things that were very meaningful or enjoyable to me before the awakening, such as reading novels and stories, watching movies and tv shows, and even some friendships (I think this triggered fear because I believed I was really losing something). I have regained some of this interest, but even now I still struggle to immerse myself fully in some of these things. So the thoughts refer to this experience even though I stop to catch them and remind myself 'this is a thought' and not even a reflection of my reality at the moment. This is my current process with this and much of the fear has dissipated.

Right now, what are you, what is "I" in your own words : the answer must be given through direct experience:

Right now, I am aware of my body sitting, I hear birds chirping, I see my hands typing, I feel my chest and throat area has a lot of bubbling energy, I notice thoughts as I type, I see a chair and table and trees through the window. I am something that is aware it is experiencing these sensations and images and thoughts right now.

[warissem]

Hi

I have started to see this. In recent weeks I have really begun to see that these are thoughts I believe. Such as "You will not be able to function in the world." or "You will not be able to write creatively if you awaken." or "You will not belong. You will not be able to be a part of anything or have deep relationships if you awaken. You will be alone." I now counter these by paying attention and stating "That is an I narrative", or "Thought" or just paying attention to feelings of fear. These thoughts have lessened but they do still come along and they seem to be very convincing since the fear feels so strong.

Right now, there is no you, no separate self living your life. This is a belief only, a thought story. Now about the fear, where is it located in the body ? How does it manifest ?

The other reason I likely still 'believe' them at first is because when I did have the glimpse of true awakening years ago, afterwards, even though I returned to a dual-state, or a thought-identified state, I lost a lot of previous beliefs and attachments, and they never returned (which is great), but I also lost interest in some things that were very meaningful or enjoyable to me before the awakening, such as reading novels and stories, watching movies and tv shows, and even some friendships (I think this triggered fear because I believed I was really losing something). I have regained some of this interest, but even now I still struggle to immerse myself fully in some of these things. So the thoughts refer to this experience even though I stop to catch them and remind myself 'this is a thought' and not even a reflection of my reality at the moment. This is my current process with this and much of the fear has dissipated.

You know, losing interest in worldly things has no relation with awakening or not awakening. Changes happen when we grow up, There is maturation, field of interest changes. It is ordinary.

Right now, I am aware of my body sitting, I hear birds chirping, I see my hands typing, I feel my chest and throat area has a lot of bubbling energy, I notice thoughts as I type, I see a chair and table and trees through the window. I am something that is aware it is experiencing these sensations and images and thoughts right now.

“I” is used many times in your answer : what does it point to in direct experience ? LOOK.
Is what is aware “something” : can you describe it for me ?

PS : learn how to use the quote function : select the question and press the quote button.
Warissem

[SJWilla]

Now about the fear, where is it located in the body ? How does it manifest ?

The fear locates in the throat and stomach areas. It manifests if thoughts such as "You will not function if you awaken." are believed to be true, or are believed to be the "I". The thought is believed and then sensations appear that feel uncomfortable, but they almost seem to occur simultaneously and can feel overwhelming and the desire to not want to feel uncomfortable arises. And if the 'thoughts' are not noticed as being just thoughts, then the thought stream will continue to state that awakening is indeed a fearful thing. I see that this is not who "I" am - it is just thoughts with bodily sensations accompanying them.

You know, losing interest in worldly things has no relation with awakening or not awakening. Changes happen when we grow up, There is maturation, field of interest changes. It is ordinary.

Thank you for this reminder :)

“I” is used many times in your answer : what does it point to in direct experience ? LOOK.
Is what is aware “something” : can you describe it for me ?

1.This "I" is the experience of a thought referring to "I" or a "somebody," and believing this thought to be true. I see that this is not an actual "I" or "somebody" but only thought of it.
2. I cannot find "something" that is aware. There is sound, sight, feeling, thought, but what is aware of my direct experience cannot be found. It is just there. Sound is sound and the awareness of sound. Or maybe sound is only sound if awareness is what it experiences? Awareness can be specific (attention on only breathing or only sound of birds chirping) or awareness can be broad (attention on body, sound, images, space all at once) but there is no "something" to this awareness, it is just awareness with varying degrees of attention on the experience.

SJ

[warissem]

Good morning

The fear locates in the throat and stomach areas. It manifests if thoughts such as "You will not function if you awaken." are believed to be true, or are believed to be the "I". The thought is believed and then sensations appear that feel uncomfortable, but they almost seem to occur simultaneously and can feel overwhelming and the desire to not want to feel uncomfortable arises. And if the 'thoughts' are not noticed as being just thoughts, then the thought stream will continue to state that awakening is indeed a fearful thing. I see that this is not who "I" am - it is just thoughts with bodily sensations accompanying them.

Is fear located in the throat and stomach or they are just sensations on which a label “fear” is put on ? Look at the sensations.

1.This "I" is the experience of a thought referring to "I" or a "somebody," and believing this thought to be true. I see that this is not an actual "I" or "somebody" but only thought of it.

Yes.

2. I cannot find "something" that is aware. There is sound, sight, feeling, thought, but what is aware of my direct experience cannot be found. It is just there. Sound is sound and the awareness of sound. Or maybe sound is only sound if awareness is what it experiences? Awareness can be specific (attention on only breathing or only sound of birds chirping) or awareness can be broad (attention on body, sound, images, space all at once) but there is no "something" to this awareness, it is just awareness with varying degrees of attention on the experience.

Yes, awareness or being aware, is what is knowing experience, it is not in the experience.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.
This an investigation of the body for you.

Warissem

[SJWilla]

Is fear located in the throat and stomach or they are just sensations on which a label “fear” is put on ? Look at the sensations.

You are right, they are just sensations in which thoughts refer to them as 'fear' sensations.

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

After doing the prescribed exercise, no, there was not a way to know how tall the body is, whether it has weight or volume, or any shape or form. There was sensation and awareness noticing specific sensations or noticing multiple sensations at once.

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

This one felt a little trickier because thoughts kept referring to some kind of boundary, however, when they were noticed as thoughts, no inside or outside could be found. Even if an arm or leg was moved through space, an inside or outside could not be distinguished, just movement and sensation.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

This one again needed some time to experience. It seems that this word/label 'body' refers to a thought that refers to sensations, images, and matter as a 'body'. Because these things seem to always be with 'me', thoughts label it as a body. hrough habit this thought is taken to be true, even though the experience of this 'body' is fluid and ever-changing.
The actual experience of the body is ever-changing physical sensations, and images of certain shapes labeled as body parts.

SJ

[warissem]

Good morning

Great observations.

thoughts label it as a body. hrough habit this thought is taken to be true, even though the experience of this 'body' is fluid and ever-changing.
The actual experience of the body is ever-changing physical sensations, and images of certain shapes labeled as body parts.

I like this part of the response : "through habit, this thought is taken to be true". Then, you can make the difference between a belief and reality. The illusion, the false resides in beliefs, in thoughts, in concepts, in labelings.

Now, I invite you to do an exercise about thoughts.
Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Kind regards

Warissem

[SJWilla]

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

They seem to arise and disappear spontaneously. I caught thoughts trying to determine a movement across some space, but once I became aware that those were thoughts, they just come and go from who knows where.
I noticed if certain thoughts arose that had more emotion/sensation following them, it seemed "I" was making them appear or continuing their thought stream, but the stronger emotion/sensation seemed to act as the catalyst for awareness to remain on a certain subject that continued thoughts in that category. There was nothing "I" was doing.

Can you predict your next thought?

No! If "I" thought I did, it was just a thought that stated "I am predicting the next thought." Ha :) The thoughts were quite random and all over the place.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Certainly not, or I probably wouldn't be doing this type of investigation :)

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Also no. During the 30 minutes of paying close attention to the thought stream, there was not a lot of negativity or if some did arise, there was not much in the way of painful emotion or sensation accompanying it. However, many hours later in the day, something triggered quite negative thoughts and accompanying sensations and emotions "I" normally categorize as painful. Awareness became consumed by these thoughts and sensations and "I" paid attention. The negative thoughts were stringing together a story (an old one that has come along many times before) that was at times hard to keep up with it was so fast or awareness got lost in the "I narrative", and also there were thoughts that seemed more hidden such as "I shouldn't feel this" or "I don't want to have these thoughts" or "you are not an I stop thinking you are an I" that "I" usually don't notice. By paying close attention and noticing the resistant thoughts and the label of "painful" regarding sensation, awareness was focused on the thought stream and bodily sensations, and after attention stayed with this 'intensity' (kind of like a storm), awareness just moved elsewhere to the trees or sound of cars. The thoughts and bodily sensations just seemed to want attention.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No. There seems to be a pattern of certain thoughts arising, then more thoughts trying to 'figure out' or 'analyze' the initial thought. Other thoughts just come and leave and then an entirely different subject of thought appears. It seems quite spontaneous.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No, I don't think so. But there is definitely a resistance or trying to hide from thought, or not acknowledging thoughts (which are also thoughts but also an energetic sensation).

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

I definitely noticed thoughts stating "this is related" or "in sequence", but really it is very spontaneous. A thought can ask "what's for dinner?" the another thought will state "that bird is a cardinal" then go to "I feel like pasta". How did the first thought arise? Perhaps it was an external trigger, as in the negative thought sequence I experienced, but mostly it is very random.

[warissem]

Good morning

You are doing great observations about thoughts.

What is arising when you read this :

There is no you, no person, no separate self in any shape or form, it has never been.

Best to you

Warissem

[SJWilla]

What is arising when you read this :

There is no you, no person, no separate self in any shape or form, it has never been.

What arises is a willingness to be open that this is true. And the intention to be open to whatever it takes to experience this for myself. My direct experience still seems separate (when there are I-thoughts that have not been dis-identified with) punctuated with moments of quiet and a slight dissolution of a self. There are moments where the "I" fades but the sense of being separate is still there. The "it has never been" seems the most difficult to grasp because the feeling of time seems quite real.

Thank you,
SJ