Liberation

[Srikram28]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? The personal self (or me or I) is an illusion and is a thought based on I and probably a body felt sense. This personal self has been introduced by conditioning and reification from the childhood by Parents, Teachers, Elders, Friends , Community and Society at large. This has resulted in the formation of an egoic self that has created a veil.

What are you looking for at LU? I want to see through the illusion of the personal illusory self. At this point I intellectually understand there is no self or others but that is not in my direct experience yet. I would like a guide who can show me this pathless path on how to get liberated.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I would like pointers on how to make the awareness or consciousness recognize itself in this body mind organism. I want to shift to non duality as my permanent existence. One on one sessions with an experienced guide , i am hoping, will bring greater clarity to this seeking and end this search as a liberated being.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I have been practicing various techniques for the past 10 months. I have tried Self Inquiry (Ramana Maharishi's Who am I), Eckhart Tolle's being in the presence, Different meditation techniques like witnessing, open monitor meditation by bringing awareness to my thoughts, emotions and sensations. I have also been watching a lot of non duality videos by different folks and follow the Hindu Philosophy called Advaita Vedanta.

So far a sense of peace has developed, mind has calmed down. I don't react to situations emotionally as before, in my mind I remind myself I am not the doer of any of the actions of this body mind. I am also seeing the colors more vividly now, the trees and grass appear really much more green than it ever did previously. But the awakening or shift in identity has not yet happened. I am still trapped in the matrix of mind .

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[vegansatori]

Hi, Sri,
It was great getting to chat with you in the video session today! Did you find it helpful?

I'd be happy to work with you if you are interested. Of course, if you felt like you resonated with one of the other guides in the meeting and would rather work with them, please feel free to ask. My feelings won't be hurt. :-)

Otherwise, I look forward to helping you inquire into any doubts, resistances, or other hindrances that might be holding you back from "getting your other foot through the Gate," to continue Vince's metaphor.

Until then, be well,
-Todd

[Srikram28]

Hello Todd,

It was a delight to meet you all. Very eye opening experience. Of course , it would be great to work with you. Looking forward.

How do we begin. is there a list of things for me to observe and report back?

Thanks,
Srikanth

[vegansatori]

Hi Srikanth! (Would you prefer Srikanth, or just Sri?)

A little housekeeping stuff to get out of the way, and then we’ll dig in!
You mentioned about wanting to do Zoom sessions. Would you be okay starting in a written format on the forum, and then maybe trying a Zoom session later if needed?


A few things before we get started. I won’t mandate that you write back every day, but the more frequent, the better. I’ll let you know if I will be unable to respond for any reason, but generally you can expect at least one reply per day from my end.

You’ve read this disclaimer, correct? http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Beware that the forum sometimes goes down. I would highly recommend composing your responses in another program and pasting them into the forum. I would have lost many hours of typed messages had I not done this!

We will use a mixture of conversation and direct pointing exercises in order to aid your inquiry. I will not be asking you to believe or accept anything. That said, it’s also not productive to engage in long philosophical discussions. (I learned that the hard way from my own journey to Seeing!) I’ll be asking lots of pointed questions, but the actual work of Looking and accurately reporting what is found (or not found) will be up to you. The pointers work really well, but only if you do them. :-)

To get an idea of exactly where you are right now, can you please answer these questions? One of the biggest hindrances to Seeing no-self is the habit of creating falsely grandiose expectations. We’ll need to address those right away if they are showing up for you. (I know we addressed some of them in the meeting, but it’s good to lay it all out in detail.) Please answer as honestly and thoroughly as you can.

What is wrong with things as they are now, and in what ways do you expect them to change after “crossing the Gate”?
Do you expect any changes in your personality/relationships/mental states, etc.?
How will being “Awakened” feel?
Is there something missing now that you expect to find?
Do you have any fears, anxiety, or reservations about this process? (Please feel free to be very honest about this if you do.)

If I have written questions in blue text, please try to answer each one as specifically as possible.

Also, for the sake of clarity, please answer questions using the Quote function for each if it’s not too much trouble.
Step one: select the text to quote.
Step two: press the "Quote" button above the text edit field.
Please let me know if you have any problems.

I look forward to getting started on this journey with you!
-Todd

[Srikram28]

Hi Srikanth! (Would you prefer Srikanth, or just Sri?)

HI Todd, Sri would be just fine..

A little housekeeping stuff to get out of the way, and then we’ll dig in!
You mentioned about wanting to do Zoom sessions. Would you be okay starting in a written format on the forum, and then maybe trying a Zoom session later if needed?

Yes. Absolutely. we can do zoom sessions later as required.

A few things before we get started. I won’t mandate that you write back every day, but the more frequent, the better. I’ll let you know if I will be unable to respond for any reason, but generally you can expect at least one reply per day from my end.

Sure. I will try to reply every day but if for some reason I am unable I will post ASAP .

You’ve read this disclaimer, correct? http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

yup. have read it.

Beware that the forum sometimes goes down. I would highly recommend composing your responses in another program and pasting them into the forum. I would have lost many hours of typed messages had I not done this!

Great point. will keep that in mind.

We will use a mixture of conversation and direct pointing exercises in order to aid your inquiry. I will not be asking you to believe or accept anything. That said, it’s also not productive to engage in long philosophical discussions. (I learned that the hard way from my own journey to Seeing!) I’ll be asking lots of pointed questions, but the actual work of Looking and accurately reporting what is found (or not found) will be up to you. The pointers work really well, but only if you do them. :-)

ofcourse , i will be doing them and will report back on my impressions.

To get an idea of exactly where you are right now, can you please answer these questions? One of the biggest hindrances to Seeing no-self is the habit of creating falsely grandiose expectations. We’ll need to address those right away if they are showing up for you. (I know we addressed some of them in the meeting, but it’s good to lay it all out in detail.) Please answer as honestly and thoroughly as you can.

What is wrong with things as they are now, and in what ways do you expect them to change after “crossing the Gate”?

I am trying to recall what drew me to this awakening process but could not out put a finger to it. A few years back my brother mentioned a book called "A search in Secret India" by Paul Brunton who wrote about the different mystics he found on his trip to India. He wrote about his experiences with visiting Ramana Maharishi's Ashram and that subconsciously made an impression on me. About few months back I took this seeking seriously and started exploring various avenues of how to drop this illusion. I feel what is wrong is, I am getting pushed and pulled by mind all the time and want to snap out of it. I want to watch mind from a distance and not be identified with thoughts and emotions . After crossing over , I as a person will no longer exist in my direct experience and then will allow all the self referential thoughts to cease or greatly reduce. I want to immerse myself in that peace.
Do you expect any changes in your personality/relationships/mental states, etc.?

I expect this character Srikanth Ramanathan to disappear completely or even if that appears I wont take it too seriously. Personality wise < i expect to be calmer, more measured and less reactive to stressful situations.
How will being “Awakened” feel?

It is hard for me imagine what it would be like but if i were to guess, i presume it would be more peaceful , less mental chatter, more in tune with life, less or no resistance to events unfolding, more accepting, less judging of people and situations, more expansiveness, more presence, more in the moment (than living in past or present), dropping of a few friends who may not vibe anymore, not believing in free will anymore.
Is there something missing now that you expect to find?

Yes. Once I now know intellectually that the reality means non dual existence only , I am unable to live comfortably in the world of duality. It is a very uncomfortable feeling to be remain as mind identified. Opening the door to non duality will right the ship.
Do you have any fears, anxiety, or reservations about this process? (Please feel free to be very honest about this if you do.)

Yes but not too much. More that anything I am excited about it. The only fear is how the ego death will feel like but I am hoping the body will react in the right manner when it happens.
If I have written questions in blue text, please try to answer each one as specifically as possible.

Also, for the sake of clarity, please answer questions using the Quote function for each if it’s not too much trouble.
Step one: select the text to quote.
Step two: press the "Quote" button above the text edit field.
Please let me know if you have any problems.

I look forward to getting started on this journey with you!
-Todd

[vegansatori]

Hi again, Sri
Thanks for the quick reply and thorough answers!

Okay, you got a little overzealous on the Quote feature. LOL
You can select just the sentence or paragraph you want to quote, and then hit the Quote button just for that. :-)

I feel what is wrong is, I am getting pushed and pulled by mind all the time and want to snap out of it. I want to watch mind from a distance and not be identified with thoughts and emotions .

I can understand your frustration, and the urge that’s coming up from it. But let’s dig deeper into these.
What would life look like if you weren’t being “pushed around by the mind”?
WHO is being pushed and pulled?
Who would be there to watch the mind from a distance? Doesn’t this suggest there would still be a You who could blissfully watch on as the mind chatters away?

There IS a significant possibility that there will be less identification with thoughts and emotions. However it won’t necessarily be effortless and 24/7. Especially not in the beginning. The more frequently you See, the better the chance will be that there will be less reactivity, less suffering, and a greater ability for thoughts to arise and dissipate without there being ownership claimed of them.

After crossing over , I as a person will no longer exist in my direct experience and then will allow all the self referential thoughts to cease or greatly reduce. I want to immerse myself in that peace.

DO you exist in your Direct Experience? Where can you be found? In which sense faculty?

Other than that, this sounds lovely, and you may or may not experience it to this degree. I don’t want to predict anything. But as many of us were saying in the meeting today, life does feel very similar to the way it did before seeing through the illusion of self. However it’s also subtly different in ways that matter. Self-referential thoughts definitely still exist here, but they are less “sticky”. There’s less inherent belief in them, and if I notice that I’ve been taken in by them for a moment, it’s easy to laugh it off and let them go. The old patterns haven’t been fully worn away yet. And there’s no way to tell if or when that will fully happen. Everyone has different experiences, but my advice is to put aside the more grandiose expectations of what Awakening will look like, and see what manifests in your experience.

I expect this character Srikanth Ramanathan to disappear completely or even if that appears I wont take it too seriously.

What would life be like if the character Srikanth Ramanathan completely disappeared? Would you be able to function in your job/family/social roles?
Would it be okay if the character still existed, but now with the freedom of knowing that it’s only a character like in a stage performance?

Personality wise < i expect to be calmer, more measured and less reactive to stressful situations.

This is very possible. The big difference between intellectually understanding that there’s no self, and experientially knowing that there’s no self, is that the latter tends to bring about differences in your behavior and experiences. That’s something we look for at LU to make sure you aren’t just getting it logically.

It is hard for me imagine what it would be like but if i were to guess, i presume it would be more peaceful , less mental chatter, more in tune with life, less or no resistance to events unfolding, more accepting, less judging of people and situations, more expansiveness, more presence, more in the moment (than living in past or present), dropping of a few friends who may not vibe anymore, not believing in free will anymore.

Yes, all of these things are definitely possible too. Though it might not happen all at once. You might see a gradual blooming of these things over time.

Yes. Once I now know intellectually that the reality means non dual existence only , I am unable to live comfortably in the world of duality. It is a very uncomfortable feeling to be remain as mind identified. Opening the door to non duality will right the ship.

Could you elaborate on this a bit? I’m not sure I fully understand. Is it that you feel unsatisfied now that you have read that there is another option for how to relate to life, or that you feel like there will be a major change in experience in some fundamental way in order to see from a non-dual perspective permanently?

I agree that mind-identification is uncomfortable. But how does it feel in those moments of directly experiencing your world when thought has quieted for a moment?

As we mentioned in the meeting, your opening statement that: “So far a sense of peace has developed, mind has calmed down. I don't react to situations emotionally as before, in my mind I remind myself I am not the doer of any of the actions of this body mind. I am also seeing the colors more vividly now, the trees and grass appear really much more green than it ever did previously” all sounds very much like Seeing and the signs of Awakening.

How are these improvements not satisfactory in a way that an imagined life of non-duality would be?

The only fear is how the ego death will feel like but I am hoping the body will react in the right manner when it happens.

Good news here. There is no ego/self death, because there never was an ego/self to begin with!

This is my little metaphor for what this process is like:
Picture yourself sitting in a dark room. Suddenly you become convinced that you see a monster in the corner. You panic, you feel stressed and anxious, your heart races, you believe you’re in mortal danger. So cautiously, you get out of your chair, and slowly inch your way toward the light switch. You close your eyes bracing for the worst, and flip the switch, your whole body in one giant contraction, waiting for the beast to lunge and devour you. And when the light comes on, and nothing has pounced, you slowly open your eyes to find that the monster was really just some dirty laundry piled on a chair, and a tall lamp sticking up behind it. Did the monster disappear? Of course not. It never existed. Your concept of a monster, and your belief in that concept, was the only thing fabricating its existence. And that concept alone was enough to trigger the emotional response of “monster in my room”. After you’ve seen that the monster didn’t exist, what’s changed? There is no more belief in the monster, and probably a good dose of relief. And maybe even some laughter that you were ever fooled by the illusion in the first place. But nothing else is fundamentally different, because the monster never existed outside of your imagination.

And being Awake is repeatedly recognizing that there is no monster, even when you occasionally forget for a moment and think it’s come back again.


So yes, feel free to set those fears aside, but please do let me know if anything else arises along the way.

I’ll await your response to these follow-ups, and then we’ll dig into more direct pointing.

Thanks again for your willingness to delve into this, and have a great night!
-Todd

[Srikram28]

Hello Todd,

Still a bit struggling with the quote feature so I will cut and paste your questions and type my responses.

Todd: What would life look like if you weren’t being “pushed around by the mind”?

Srikanth: It would be wonderful. Mind should be the servant not the master. The living reality or consciousness of existence should be the one driving the vehicle. Here thoughts can come and go but it will be more than clear that they don't mean anything.

Todd: WHO is being pushed and pulled?

Srikanth: This is a deep question and had me stumped for an answer. On one level the body is pulled into action by mind for example going to groceries, restaurants, errands, office etc but the body is not complaining or frustrated. The conscious entity in me (sense of me) peering through the eyes is what I think is getting pulled and pushed (or) is it the mind itself regretting why it got jerked around and identified with thoughts again forgetting to stay in the present . I can't tell for sure. May need further investigation.

Todd: Who would be there to watch the mind from a distance? Doesn’t this suggest there would still be a You who could blissfully watch on as the mind chatters away?

Srikanth: Well I wont be there as a person as the character has been seen through and exited the stage. But whatever remains , the pure awareness or consciousness or life will be able to watch the mind from a peaceful distance in this unit or body mind organism.

Todd: DO you exist in your Direct Experience? Where can you be found? In which sense faculty?

Srikanth: No, when i investigate and do a body scan and look directly I don't exist. I only see an emptiness. So I would say there is a body felt sense of me but no I or self can be found anywhere.

Todd: What would life be like if the character Srikanth Ramanathan completely disappeared? Would you be able to function in your job/family/social roles?
Would it be okay if the character still existed, but now with the freedom of knowing that it’s only a character like in a stage performance?

Srikanth: If the character disappeared , initial reaction would be sadness like losing a loved one. But that grief would be short lived as now I become the entire manifest and un-manifest universe of existence. There is no separation with rest of the creation so it would be complete freedom without any strings attached. Yes, I think i still would be able to function in a better fashion because the excess baggage I have been carrying around this personal self will all vanish. There will be a big relief and a release. Even if the character existed, since I have seen through it, it will not trouble me and I wont take it seriously.

Todd: Could you elaborate on this a bit? I’m not sure I fully understand. Is it that you feel unsatisfied now that you have read that there is another option for how to relate to life, or that you feel like there will be a major change in experience in some fundamental way in order to see from a non-dual perspective permanently?

Srikanth: I feel there will be a major change in the way the five senses and thoughts are perceived once the illusory me is gone and the subject object collapse has occured. Then it will always be just the raw unfiltered reality experience but no experiencer so it will be full on and intimate and direct without mind interpreting it. so yes, this would be better way to live .

Todd: I agree that mind-identification is uncomfortable. But how does it feel in those moments of directly experiencing your world when thought has quieted for a moment?

When I directly look at a scenery say a tree or bird or listen to a bird call without trying to interpret , name it , categorize it then it feels wonderful. Very neutral. Same feeling I have during meditation or self inquiry when the mind has calmed down , not much of thought coming up, that space of awareness feels great like home, very relaxing.

Todd: How are these improvements not satisfactory in a way that an imagined life of non-duality would be?

Srikanth: Yes, while these improvements are good and I am noticing them I want the liberation to happen much faster. i guess I am a bit impatient to get to the finish line. I fully understand life or living reality operates in a different paradigm with no time or space but cant help getting frustrated why is this process of awakening not fast enough. Also there is another worry as well. That I will just remain only at an intellectual level and never able to directly realize it. This is possibly my biggest concern, can i see it through, is it possible for me, maybe for others this shift happen but not for me.

Thanks for your clarification on the fear of ego death , now i feel much calmer.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks,
Srikanth

[vegansatori]

Hello Sri,
There is a lot of good stuff in here! (And also some expectations that at this point are still a bit unrealistic, and I’m worried will get in your way.)

Still a bit struggling with the quote feature so I will cut and paste your questions and type my responses.

No worries. Do whatever is easiest for you. If it helps, there is a video explaining it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ But again, if it’s easier to copy and paste, go for it! :-)

Srikanth: It would be wonderful. Mind should be the servant not the master. The living reality or consciousness of existence should be the one driving the vehicle. Here thoughts can come and go but it will be more than clear that they don't mean anything.

I hear some preexisting beliefs that are going to get in the way here. I’m going to ask you to set all of this aside for now. I don’t want to engage at the level of philosophy because, as fun as it is, I don’t think it’s going to help you See.

We’re going to do some direct pointers to get at this as we go along, but for now I’ll just ask, can consciousness control and make volitional decisions, or is it simply the awareness of what’s already occurring?

Srikanth: This is a deep question and had me stumped for an answer. On one level the body is pulled into action by mind for example going to groceries, restaurants, errands, office etc but the body is not complaining or frustrated. The conscious entity in me (sense of me) peering through the eyes is what I think is getting pulled and pushed (or) is it the mind itself regretting why it got jerked around and identified with thoughts again forgetting to stay in the present . I can't tell for sure. May need further investigation.

Yes! This is going to be the crux of our investigation so we will return to this over and over in different ways. First off, I’m not always looking for a specific answer from you. The Looking is more important than your reporting. Are you familiar with Zen koans? If not, they’re questions (like the sound of one hand clapping) which don’t have an answer that can be easily verbalized. The purpose is to stun the mind into silence so it can realize that concepts are inherently problematic, limiting, and not representative of reality. Sit with those moments and use them to really Look for where the self is assumed to be.

Once again, I’m not going to impose any beliefs on you, but there is a framework that I came across recently which I have found helpful in breaking down these individual sensations of “I/me” that you’ve brought up, both here and in the meeting. As we go along we’ll explore pointers and questions relating to each, because, (spoiler) they are all illusions.

These different illusions of self all interweave with each other, making the illusion seem all the more solid. This breakdown is from the book “Being You” by Anil Seth. He categorizes them as follows:

The Body as Self – the feeling that I am my body
The Narrative Self – the memory of past events, my name, family, address, etc.
The Perspectival Self – the feeling of being an entity looking out from behind my eyes, located somewhere in the middle of my head
The Volitional Self – the feeling that I can make choices, and choose whether or not to perform an action
The Social Self – the way I perceive others perceiving me

Srikanth: Well I wont be there as a person as the character has been seen through and exited the stage. But whatever remains , the pure awareness or consciousness or life will be able to watch the mind from a peaceful distance in this unit or body mind organism.
Srikanth: If the character disappeared , initial reaction would be sadness like losing a loved one. But that grief would be short lived as now I become the entire manifest and un-manifest universe of existence. There is no separation with rest of the creation so it would be complete freedom without any strings attached. Yes, I think i still would be able to function in a better fashion because the excess baggage I have been carrying around this personal self will all vanish. There will be a big relief and a release. Even if the character existed, since I have seen through it, it will not trouble me and I wont take it seriously.

There are people who describe living from "Pure Consciousness" or as "The True Self", etc. Beware that those statements are sometimes just redefining the old sense of self in a new guise. I also want to make clear you might not experience this level of detachment just from seeing through the illusion of self. I don’t personally know anyone who has had the level of detachment that you are describing. At least not for more than a few hours, days, or weeks.

When you say “Awareness” or “Consciousness”, are they something which you are currently experiencing? How do you know you’re never not seeing life as Awareness?

Srikanth: No, when i investigate and do a body scan and look directly I don't exist. I only see an emptiness. So I would say there is a body felt sense of me but no I or self can be found anywhere.

YES!!! That’s exactly what we’ve been pointing to! Great job! This is why we’re going to try to stick to answers using Direct Experience only. Because the other thoughts about a blissful state of Awareness floating detached from the slave of mind are all just thoughts. Does this make sense?

Srikanth: I feel there will be a major change in the way the five senses and thoughts are perceived once the illusory me is gone and the subject object collapse has occured. Then it will always be just the raw unfiltered reality experience but no experiencer so it will be full on and intimate and direct without mind interpreting it. so yes, this would be better way to live .

What’s getting in your way, right now, from experiencing raw unfiltered experience without the experiencer?

All I will say to this right now is that thoughts will never completely go away. You will likely experience some changes to them, as well as with your relationship to them (like not always believing them to be true, or that they are coming from “you”). But I suspect you don’t really want to be a blank slate all of the time. The mind plays some very important roles in our functioning as humans. And after all, seeing through the illusion of self isn’t going to make you into a Cosmic Energy Being or something. You’ll still be flesh and blood and need to navigate relationships, jobs, and subway maps.

When I directly look at a scenery say a tree or bird or listen to a bird call without trying to interpret , name it , categorize it then it feels wonderful. Very neutral. Same feeling I have during meditation or self inquiry when the mind has calmed down , not much of thought coming up, that space of awareness feels great like home, very relaxing.

Lovely! So you can already experience it, at least for a little while. For right now, just rest in the knowledge that it’s available to you whenever you remember to Look.

Srikanth: Yes, while these improvements are good and I am noticing them I want the liberation to happen much faster. i guess I am a bit impatient to get to the finish line. I fully understand life or living reality operates in a different paradigm with no time or space but cant help getting frustrated why is this process of awakening not fast enough. Also there is another worry as well. That I will just remain only at an intellectual level and never able to directly realize it. This is possibly my biggest concern, can i see it through, is it possible for me, maybe for others this shift happen but not for me.

Hahaha, you are not alone, my friend! We hear about something that we want, specifically something that will reduce the suffering we feel every day, and we want it immediately. Unfortunately, that’s the sort of craving which is going to be counterproductive. I love that you’re channeling it into delving deeply into answering these questions. I can feel your passion through these exchanges. It’s helpful if it adds fuel to your engine when it comes to inquiry, but if it manifests as frustration, doubt, self-recrimination, or problematic emotions (which it sounds like it sometimes does) it’s only going to be a hindrance.

I heard a quote from Joseph Goldstein recently that I’m paraphrasing slightly: "Aspiration [for wholesome things like the drive for Awakening] always inspires us. However, expectations in the mind, and wanting, lock us into cycles of hope and fear, because we constantly hope for things we want and fear we won’t get them."

From your answers, it seems like you are already Seeing to some extent, and are much closer to seeing through the illusion than you think. Have no fear, we’re only getting started! :-)

Thanks for your clarification on the fear of ego death , now i feel much calmer.

Wonderful!


I apologize for the length of this response. There was a lot to address, but I will try to narrow our focus going forward.

On that note, from now on we’re going to set aside all of the speculation about what Awakening might look like, and start Looking at what’s actually there. To do this, we’ll be dealing almost exclusively with Direct Experience. I get the sense that you have a good grasp of it, but just so we’re clear exactly what we’re referring to here…

When we talk about Direct/Actual Experience, what we’re talking about are simply the raw experiences before thought attaches concepts, names, or meaning to them. This is what you’re going to use to Look and report back in all of the pointers I’ll be giving. In a handy reminder form, Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Physical sensations, not emotion. Emotions are just physical sensations mixed with thoughts)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Now, let’s dig into that feeling of identification with a body that you brought up today.

Introductory Body Exercise

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.

Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?

Does the body have a weight or volume?

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?

If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?

If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

When you say "my body", where exactly does the owner of the body reside?

Look very carefully, especially with the last three questions. Take your time with this. I'd recommend looking several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Perhaps the most important tip I can give while doing any of these Looking exercises is to RELAX. There’s no need to tighten up or create tension around this. If anything, if will keep you from Seeing. Relax, let go, drop the shoulders, exhale, and look for manifestations of what we would typically label “self” with the open curiosity of a small child, or someone softly gazing out a window across a wide pastoral expanse. Use your peripheral awareness more than your focused attention, if that makes sense to you. Let go of the seeking energy. Let go of the grasping, and just observe what’s really there, not what we think or assume to be there. These are fun experiments. Bring an element of play to this whole process.

I am looking forward to your responses. I get a real sense of dedication from you to the project of awakening, and I’m thrilled to be working with you!
Have a great night,
-Todd

[Srikram28]

Thanks Todd for your reply.

Let me post my responses to your queries.

Todd: We’re going to do some direct pointers to get at this as we go along, but for now I’ll just ask, can consciousness control and make volitional decisions, or is it simply the awareness of what’s already occurring?

Srikanth: No . Consciousness does not control anything but allows for infinite forms of expression both animate and inanimate. So it's the latter, simply the awareness of what's already occurring.

Thanks for the book suggestion. sounds very interesting . I will be sure to check it out.

I did the exercise you had suggested multiple times. yeah. felt great while doing it, lots of energy and sensations surging thru me as I went thru process.

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No. Once the eyes are closed , all I can feel are the sensations. These sensations do not seem to have a location in space and once I eliminate the image of the body from my mind, there is no way to tell how tall the body is.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

Same finding as above . No way to measure or come up with a weight or volume once thought content is discarded and you are left only with sense impressions.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Nope . No form or shape can be found. any form or shape can only be a thought or visual image in mind.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

No boundary detected. Although there is a feeling of cloth touching the skin, there is no way to discern a boundary between the two.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Nope. There is a sensation of pressure on the bottom contacting the chair but no boundary detected.

Is there an inside or an outside?

If this is reference to a body, then no outside or inside can be found as what I felt every time are only the raw sensations within the body, sounds, air touching my skin.

If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?

No inside can be detected

If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

No outside can be detected

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

Body refers to a sensing organism which is capable of taking input from five senses and mind. It's an instrument.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

There was no experience of the body. Just awareness of sensations, sounds, touch without a specific location where this is happening. with the eyes open , this is a little difficult to achieve because visual can trick the mind into thinking there is a body. But once the eyes are closed, it's very obvious that what we call body is just a bunch sense perceptions interplaying with awareness of them simultaneously present within that singular experience. Attention sometimes moves to sound or touch or sensations but they are all interwoven.

When you say "my body", where exactly does the owner of the body reside?

Nope. Sorry to say owner of the body cannot be found. LOL. Just an emptiness, darkness and blankness.

Looking forward to hearing back from you!

Regards,
Srikanth

[vegansatori]

Hi, Sri,

You have some fantastic answers today!

Srikanth: No . Consciousness does not control anything but allows for infinite forms of expression both animate and inanimate. So it's the latter, simply the awareness of what's already occurring.

Great! Now, do you feel that you ARE that Consciousness/Awareness?

Thanks for the book suggestion. sounds very interesting . I will be sure to check it out.

Feel free to if it interests you, but it won’t really help in this process. It’s more to do with the brain processes, how they predict and create experience, and how that gives rise to the feeling of self. It’s conceptually interesting, but it won’t get you any closer to Seeing for yourself. If you're still interested by then, I would wait until after we're done here.

At this point we’re going to try to keeping thinking and conceptualizing out of our process as much as possible. I only referenced it because I find the categorizations of the 5 Self Illusions to be useful in breaking apart the big Monster of Self that we usually identify with.

I did the exercise you had suggested multiple times. yeah. felt great while doing it, lots of energy and sensations surging thru me as I went thru process.

Lovely! Feel free to keep doing this exercise as much as you like. Particularly if it was pleasurable. You don’t need to keep reporting answers, but it might help to confirm and deepen your findings.

No. Once the eyes are closed , all I can feel are the sensations. These sensations do not seem to have a location in space and once I eliminate the image of the body from my mind, there is no way to tell how tall the body is.
Same finding as above . No way to measure or come up with a weight or volume once thought content is discarded and you are left only with sense impressions.
Nope . No form or shape can be found. any form or shape can only be a thought or visual image in mind.

These answers were perfect!

No boundary detected. Although there is a feeling of cloth touching the skin, there is no way to discern a boundary between the two.

This is great. It’s a very fine point, but do you notice whether there is even anything called “cloth” or “skin”? Or is there just sensation and concepts labeling them as such?

Body refers to a sensing organism which is capable of taking input from five senses and mind. It's an instrument.

This is true from a cognitive level. But from D.E. can you tell that to be true? If not, then what IS the body?

There was no experience of the body. Just awareness of sensations, sounds, touch without a specific location where this is happening. with the eyes open , this is a little difficult to achieve because visual can trick the mind into thinking there is a body. But once the eyes are closed, it's very obvious that what we call body is just a bunch sense perceptions interplaying with awareness of them simultaneously present within that singular experience. Attention sometimes moves to sound or touch or sensations but they are all interwoven.

This is beautiful! Again, it’s not totally necessary, but I would suggest practicing this with eyes open too to get used to sensing the same sort of boundless awareness of it, even while looking at it.

Are “you” intentionally moving the attention to witness different senses arising?

Nope. Sorry to say owner of the body cannot be found. LOL. Just an emptiness, darkness and blankness.

Brilliant! You seem to have a good sense of your internal bodily awareness, which is very helpful.

How do you feel after seeing that you couldn’t find a self anywhere in the body?

When you say a phrase like “Hi, I’m Srikanth,” where does that feel the most “true” at this point? Check in with your physical sensations and please report back in detail what you find.

When you say a phrase like “I’m tired/angry/upset/happy right now”, where do you feel that the I is located who is tired/angry/upset/happy?


We’re going to explore some of the senses in more detail. First we’ll start with seeing, since you mentioned having a difficult time maintaining spacious awareness without identifying with the body.

Seeing Exercise
Put either a mug or cup on the table in front of you. It’s probably better if it’s empty, but either way will work. We’re going to explore the difference between what we actually see in DE, and what is purely a construct of thought. Pretend you’ve never seen an object like this before. You’ve come from space and found this curious unnamed thing just resting there. Describe to me what can actually be seen in your DE. You’ll have no idea of its function or functions, if it even has any. Don’t speculate. Just describe as precisely as you can what appears in vision. By looking at it, can you tell what it’s made of? What shape the opening or other parts really are? Are the shapes the same as what you “know” them to be? Is the object even appearing as 3-dimensional?

Where does the seeing of the object end and the seer begin?

Is there a seer who is seeing the object? If so, how do you know, and where are they seeing from?


Try to look as specifically as possible, similar to what we did in the previous exercise.

Take your time with these. You’re really doing great!
Have a wonderful night,
-Todd

[Srikram28]

Hello Todd,

Thanks for your responses and prompts.

Here are mine.

Todd: Now, do you feel that you ARE that Consciousness/Awareness?

Srikanth: Initially I was only intelluctualy feeling I was that awareness. But if I look at the body, I am aware of the body, if I inquire about the mind, I am aware of the mind's contents, if I look at the working of the ego, I am aware of when it manifests. so if i am aware of all these items then I cannot be those but I must be awareness itself. so this is more of a deduction. But when I meditate and the mind goes quiet, some times there are no thoughts or there are gaps between thoughts. during those times I am aware but this awareness does not have any object to be aware of. so in those moments i feel I am awareness.

Todd: It’s a very fine point, but do you notice whether there is even anything called “cloth” or “skin”? Or is there just sensation and concepts labeling them as such?

Srikanth: Excellent catch. when i redid that experiment, i realized the cloth and skin are just words and mind made up stuff. in DE , there is no such thing as Skin or Cloth, just sensations.

Todd: This is true from a cognitive level. But from D.E. can you tell that to be true? If not, then what IS the body?

Srikanth: There is no body as such in DE. Only sensing going on. Sensations and thoughts (if mind is included)

Todd: Are “you” intentionally moving the attention to witness different senses arising?

Srikanth: Sometimes it moves naturally other times I move it willfully. But this is interesting because I don't actually exist as a person, so who is moving the attention, maybe the mind thinks, i now need to listen to that sound and so it appears that I am moving the attention.

Todd: How do you feel after seeing that you couldn’t find a self anywhere in the body?

Srikanth: Two thoughts come to mind. one, How could I ever have thought until now there was an actual person inside me. LOL. It was an unquestioned assumption . 2) Now that it is clear that there is no "me" or "i" or "personal self" why it this sense of me looking through the eyes as a subject persisting. why doesn't it drop off?

Todd: When you say a phrase like “Hi, I’m Srikanth,” where does that feel the most “true” at this point? Check in with your physical sensations and please report back in detail what you find.

When you say a phrase like “I’m tired/angry/upset/happy right now”, where do you feel that the I is located who is tired/angry/upset/happy?

Srikanth: In both cases above, whenever the word "I" is included in the sentence, I feel a tightness or a contraction in the middle of the chest right near the bottom of the rib cage.

Cup Experiment:

Todd: Describe to me what can actually be seen in your DE.

Srikanth: Mentally i removed any knowledge of the cup so I initially saw a shape with a brown color. I then removed the shape from my mind , i saw just the color.

Todd: By looking at it, can you tell what it’s made of? What shape the opening or other parts really are? Are the shapes the same as what you “know” them to be? Is the object even appearing as 3-dimensional?

Initially the object appeared to made of porcelain and the shape was that of a cone with a circular opening and appeared 3 dimensional. after removing these as mental overlays, what remained was color and general shape , once shape was also dismissed, then only color remained. but this is still a little tricky and not easy as investigating sound. I have to force myself to see it as color , it does not come naturally.

Todd: Where does the seeing of the object end and the seer begin?

Srikanth: That's a bit hard to tell. it seems to be a melded singular experience.

Todd: Is there a seer who is seeing the object? If so, how do you know, and where are they seeing from?

Srikanth: When i do a body scan for a seer no such entity is present. But I still have the sense of seeing as a seer through the eyes. so it's paradoxical.

Thanks for the tip on not reading the book about ego. yes. I get your point on just treating it as an example but not going beyond that to more concepts.

Waiting for your responses.

Thanks,
Srikanth

[vegansatori]

Hi Sri!
Well done! You seem to be having some very clear insight happening through these practices.

Srikanth: But if I look at the body, I am aware of the body, if I inquire about the mind, I am aware of the mind's contents, if I look at the working of the ego, I am aware of when it manifests. so if i am aware of all these items then I cannot be those but I must be awareness itself.

The logic of the first part of this is good. The question I would like you to inquire into further is: Just because awareness seems to exist, does that mean that it is YOU? Can awareness simply exist without ownership or identification with it?

so this is more of a deduction. But when I meditate and the mind goes quiet, some times there are no thoughts or there are gaps between thoughts. during those times I am aware but this awareness does not have any object to be aware of. so in those moments i feel I am awareness.

I can understand why you would feel that way. But when the thoughts drop away for a moment, and there is nothing but awareness, notice what the awareness is still being aware of. You might not have a single object that you are paying attention to. But can awareness exist separated from one of the 5 senses or thoughts?

If your eyes are closed and you’re in a dark room, aren’t you still aware of the blackness? If you were in an anechoic chamber where there’s absolutely no external sound, you would still hear your blood pumping and the buzz of your nervous system. Have you ever experienced absolutely nothing?

When you are in deep sleep, are you still aware?

Srikanth: Excellent catch. when i redid that experiment, i realized the cloth and skin are just words and mind made up stuff. in DE , there is no such thing as Skin or Cloth, just sensations.
There is no body as such in DE. Only sensing going on. Sensations and thoughts (if mind is included)

Excellent! Glad you were able to see these so quickly, because a lot of these experiments are going to keep pointing to the fact that our daily experiences are a constant stream of prefabricated assumptions and conceptions that are helpful for our daily functioning (imagine if you had to figure out what a cup is used for every time you encountered one!) but that are also the root of the illusion of a separate inherent self.

Srikanth: Sometimes it moves naturally other times I move it willfully. But this is interesting because I don't actually exist as a person, so who is moving the attention, maybe the mind thinks, i now need to listen to that sound and so it appears that I am moving the attention.

Before we jump to thoughts about why or how our attention moves, let’s investigate volitional action a bit. Then we’ll come back to bodily sensations.

If you’re out in public and someone calls out your name, do you have to make the decision to turn your head towards to the sound, or does it just happen immediately?

I know you were reading other threads, so you might have come across this pointer already because it’s an LU classic. Even if you have, we’ll do it again because it cannot be seen often enough.

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you, palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And then down again.
3. Keep repeating this over and over, varying the speed from slow to fast.

Watch like a hawk each time.

Like all of our exercises, don't go to thoughts to analyze or rationalize what’s happening. Simply examine your direct experience in as fine of detail as you can.

While you are doing this, try to discover:

How is the movement being controlled?
Does a thinker or thought control it?
How would you describe to someone else how to flip their own hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over each time? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over before it happens.
How is the decision to change speed being made?
Who or what chose which hand you would use for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything else that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Once you get a feel for this, you can try it out with different experiences as well, like that of choosing which object your attention goes to.

Srikanth: Two thoughts come to mind. one, How could I ever have thought until now there was an actual person inside me. LOL. It was an unquestioned assumption.

Excellent!!! This is the insight we’re aiming for. How do you feel, physically and mentally, after you realized that?

2) Now that it is clear that there is no "me" or "i" or "personal self" why it this sense of me looking through the eyes as a subject persisting. why doesn't it drop off?

Again, we have to bring down your expectations. At LU we are working only with the illusion of separate self, which depending on your preferred framework of Awakening/Enlightening, is only the first, yet crucial step. Even after thoroughly seeing through the illusion, you will still feel separate to some degree. You will still have to work through patterns and habits based around illusions dealing with craving and aversion, subject/object, and more. But during that whole time, some of your sense of self will still remain.

Also, some people have the rare “light switch” experience where they see through the illusion and a lot drops at once. Most of us are not like that.

Look at it this way; you’ve been building up these concepts and perceptions for your entire life. It will probably take seeing through the illusion repeatedly in different contexts in order to notice any bigger “shifts”. And even still, it’s possible to thoroughly see through the illusion and still feel absolutely the same as you did before. Be patient with yourself and let the experience just unfold. :-)

Srikanth: In both cases above, whenever the word "I" is included in the sentence, I feel a tightness or a contraction in the middle of the chest right near the bottom of the rib cage.

This is good. I remember in the meeting you saying that you did the exercise where you remove "I" from a sentence to see if it feels different, and you said it did. When you use "I", the ribcage contraction may be the strongest sensation, but do you notice anything else that’s maybe not quite as strong but still significant?

Also, do you notice any difference in physical sensations between phrases like “I am sad” vs “I am happy”?

Srikanth: Mentally i removed any knowledge of the cup so I initially saw a shape with a brown color. I then removed the shape from my mind , i saw just the color.

Great! I take a little bit of an issue with the phrasing “I removed”, but I’m assuming that’s just our clunky way of describing what appears to happening, right? Do you feel like you intentionally removed a concept from your mind?

Initially the object appeared to made of porcelain and the shape was that of a cone with a circular opening and appeared 3 dimensional. after removing these as mental overlays, what remained was color and general shape , once shape was also dismissed, then only color remained. but this is still a little tricky and not easy as investigating sound. I have to force myself to see it as color , it does not come naturally.

This is understandable. It’s not that we need to actually experience the world as just abstract shapes of different colors and textures. What’s important for you to notice is how much conceptualizing already shaped your experience of what was there before you ever really interacted with it. For instance, I assume the opening was a perfect circle, right? Do you notice that no matter which angle you look at it from, (except for directly from above,) the opening is actually some sort of oval? Possibly it becomes a very narrow shape that isn’t even an opening at all.

Again, we don’t want to lose this functionality or else we wouldn’t be able to navigate through the world. We’re using the experiment as a way to temporarily break the trance of mental overlays to see for the first time how much of our experience is created by concepts and preconceived expectations.

Srikanth: That's a bit hard to tell. it seems to be a melded singular experience.

Yes! Keep investigating here. We can do more of these formally as well, but throughout the day, when you remember, try this with all of your senses. When you are hearing, is there a hearer and the heard, or simply what’s heard? Tasted? Smelled? Felt?

Srikanth: When i do a body scan for a seer no such entity is present. But I still have the sense of seeing as a seer through the eyes. so it's paradoxical.

Yes, this is the feeling of the Perspectival Self. The feeling of being located somewhere in our head from behind our eyes.
We can do pointers for that later, but I've given you more than enough for today.

Seriously, you are doing splendidly! I appreciate your consistent responses and thorough investigations!

I’m excited to hear what you find. But again, don’t rush this. Take all the time you need. I've been throwing a lot at you because there are so many openings arising, and you seem to have a good momentum going. I don't know what your life schedule is like, so if you need two days to thoroughly investigate everything before reporting back, that's fine. What's most important is that you keep Looking, repeating these exercises throughout the day to really stabilize the realizations you’re finding.

Keep up the great work!
-Todd

[Srikram28]

Hello Todd,

Thanks for your encouraging words! It gives me confidence I am on the right path.

Pls see my responses below and also some observations I have been having recently.

Todd: Just because awareness seems to exist, does that mean that it is YOU? Can awareness simply exist without ownership or identification with it?

Srikanth: Yes. I think it can exist without an owner. However I am from an advaita vendanta philosophy background where it has been drilled into my head that I am that one universal awareness or consciousness. So i keep thinking I must be the awareness because I know for sure I am not the body, mind, intellect or ego. There is nothing else left. But that brings another point. why do i think I am awareness if the "I" (Conceptual me, ego) does not exist in reality. so what this "I"can really refer to is just that universal impersonal awareness (or) we don't really need into stick an "I" into it at all as that's just a construct and limitation of language and all there is is just awareness without a subject.

Todd: You might not have a single object that you are paying attention to. But can awareness exist separated from one of the 5 senses or thoughts?

Srikanth: I believe it is possible for awareness to exist independently of the senses or thought although I have not experienced it directly in the waking state. when I am dreaming in my sleep, I am not aware of the five senses but I think awareness is there because someone touches my feet or body or I hear a sound , I can wake up.

Todd: If your eyes are closed and you’re in a dark room, aren’t you still aware of the blackness?

Srikanth: Yes, I am awareness of the blackness. Awareness does not stop because it is dark.

Todd: Have you ever experienced absolutely nothing?

Srikanth: Nope, there is always some sound or sensations , never have experienced absolute zero or something like a sensory deprivation tank.

Todd: When you are in deep sleep, are you still aware?

Srikanth: This one is hard to verify in DE but I think awareness still exists in deep sleep because even though both body , mind and ego were absent, once I wake up I feel I had a great restful sleep. If I had no memory or recollection of it why would I feel that, something obviously noticed it.

Todd: If you’re out in public and someone calls out your name, do you have to make the decision to turn your head towards to the sound, or does it just happen immediately?

Srikanth: Nope, it just happens automatically, no need to make a decision. It's almost like a conditioned reflex or response.

Yeah. The palm flipping exercise was insightful.

How is the movement being controlled?

There does not seem to be a control once the motion starts. It ends when there is a thought to stop doing it.

Does a thinker or thought control it?

Nope > there is a no thinker or thought to control, seems to be happening on it's own.

How would you describe to someone else how to flip their own hand?

Pretty much same instructions that you gave me.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

Nope. No controller present or evident.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over each time? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over before it happens.

No decision point could be detected to turn the hand over.

How is the decision to change speed being made?

There was a thought to change the speed , this occurred only once. Then the speeds keep changing to different levels.

Who or what chose which hand you would use for the exercise?

Automatically every time I performed this , I used the right hand, It was a subconscious decision or no one decided that. I am right handed so that could be part of it

Can you find a separate individual or anything else that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Nope. It just happens on its own once there is an initial thought to perform the experiment.

Todd: When you use "I", the ribcage contraction may be the strongest sensation, but do you notice anything else that’s maybe not quite as strong but still significant?

Srikanth: I also noticed a sensation on top of my head. Kind of like an energy movement.

Todd: Also, do you notice any difference in physical sensations between phrases like “I am sad” vs “I am happy”?

Srikanth: Not much difference between these two in terms of physical sensations. But I noticed when I say " i am sad" my face tends to radiate sadness but when I said " I am happy" I am smiling.

Todd: Great! I take a little bit of an issue with the phrasing “I removed”, but I’m assuming that’s just our clunky way of describing what appears to happening, right? Do you feel like you intentionally removed a concept from your mind?

Srikanth: I kept seeing it as a cup with shape , form and color, then I told my mind , it''s just my brain overlaying the form and shape , it just color so that's what I mean my "removed". you are correct, now when I redid that, I noticed an oval shape opening (not a circle) but my preconceived notion of a circular opening over rode my DE initial time.

Todd: When you are hearing, is there a hearer and the heard, or simply what’s heard? Tasted? Smelled? Felt?

Srikanth: When I tried with these different senses same conclusion is being arrived at. It's simply what's heard, tasted, smelled or felt.

Another thing I am observing during my meditation sessions is, when i reach a certain state of peace, there seems to be like a blanket developing in my perception and after that any sound or sensation or narrative voice in my head seems to be faded out and distant, as though they are happening a million miles away. Is this some kind of a bliss state , not sure. This seems to be last for a few hours atleast these days. In one of the recent experiences of that state, I could not even hear my heartbeat (normally i do hear that) nor any external sounds. The one thing I could hear was the soft pinging on my ears very soft and faint (I have a mild case of Tinnitus so i hear this ringing all the time)

The work schedule has been a bit tight in the last 3 weeks because of my new boss who joined recently. we are both getting adjusted to each other and he seems to be a very intrusive person and a micromanager. Finding it difficult to cope after having no real boss for a long time.

Look forward to hearing back from you.

Thanks,
Srikanth

[vegansatori]

Hi Sri!

First off, I feel bad that you keep having to write out things like that. Let’s try to master the Quote function one more time.

I assume you’re composing the text in a word document or something, right? Once you paste it back into the LU browser, highlight my question by dragging the mouse over the section of the text. Then on the top of the screen, just hit the Quote button. It should surround the highlighted section with a bracketed Quote box before and after that selection. Then you just repeat the process for each question. Does that work for you?

Srikanth: Yes. I think it can exist without an owner. However I am from an advaita vendanta philosophy background where it has been drilled into my head that I am that one universal awareness or consciousness. So i keep thinking I must be the awareness because I know for sure I am not the body, mind, intellect or ego. There is nothing else left. But that brings another point. why do i think I am awareness if the "I" (Conceptual me, ego) does not exist in reality. so what this "I"can really refer to is just that universal impersonal awareness (or) we don't really need into stick an "I" into it at all as that's just a construct and limitation of language and all there is is just awareness without a subject.

I figured we were going to run into this eventually since you'd mentioned having practiced Advaita Vedanta. I’m familiar enough with it to know that there is the distinction that you just made. Having personally come from a Buddhist background, that wasn’t something that I had to contend with. Knowing that you’re not the mind, intellect, or ego is already great. You’re exactly right that the “I” is just an unnecessary limitation of language. Excellent observing!

If it’s still an uncomfortable topic, just leave it aside. But while we're here:
If awareness exists, which it seems it does, does it really matter whether there is identification with it?
Isn’t identification just another concept and thought that’s being witnessed?
If you are truly the awareness, then any thoughts about being the awareness are still just thoughts that can be seen, right?

Srikanth: I believe it is possible for awareness to exist independently of the senses or thought although I have not experienced it directly in the waking state. when I am dreaming in my sleep, I am not aware of the five senses but I think awareness is there because someone touches my feet or body or I hear a sound , I can wake up.

I understand your reasoning here. There’s definitely something (neuroscience specifies certain parts of the brain) that can be aware of outside stimuli during deep sleep. But since we can’t observe it happening, it won’t help us in the inquiry. So right now, as you said, you believe it’s possible, but we can’t verify it. Even if there is an awareness that exists during deep sleep, is it You who is aware? Are you ever aware of being asleep and also of the other people and events happening around you in the room?

Srikanth: Yes, I am awareness of the blackness. Awareness does not stop because it is dark.
Srikanth: Nope, there is always some sound or sensations , never have experienced absolute zero or something like a sensory deprivation tank.
Srikanth: This one is hard to verify in DE but I think awareness still exists in deep sleep because even though both body , mind and ego were absent, once I wake up I feel I had a great restful sleep. If I had no memory or recollection of it why would I feel that, something obviously noticed it.

You're noticing that you feel rested in the morning, once you're awake and aware again. And you're comparing that feeling to the memory of what you think you felt like before you went to bed the night before. Were you aware of feeling gradually more and more rested while you were sleeping? :-) The rest of it is a tricky question, and one that falls out of our purview. We have different cycles of sleep, and we are partially aware during some of them. Let’s say, differently aware, during others. Again, since we want to work with DE, we’ll set this one aside.

Srikanth: Nope, it just happens automatically, no need to make a decision. It's almost like a conditioned reflex or response.
There does not seem to be a control once the motion starts. It ends when there is a thought to stop doing it.

Very good. Do you notice that motions can also stop even without having a thought beforehand?

Nope > there is a no thinker or thought to control, seems to be happening on it's own.
Nope. No controller present or evident.
No decision point could be detected to turn the hand over.
There was a thought to change the speed , this occurred only once. Then the speeds keep changing to different levels.
Automatically every time I performed this , I used the right hand, It was a subconscious decision or no one decided that. I am right handed so that could be part of it
Nope. It just happens on its own once there is an initial thought to perform the experiment.

These are all great! It’s a very telling exercise, isn’t it?

Pretty much same instructions that you gave me.

But if you wanted to really explain in fine detail, could you actually tell them how to do something even as basic as lifting their right arm?

This will be a fun experiment. Try to tell me EXACTLY how to raise my right arm. You don’t even need to specify the ligaments or muscles. How do I even start the behavior before that?

Srikanth: I also noticed a sensation on top of my head. Kind of like an energy movement.

Interesting! It’s good to keep clear awareness of what feelings arise when we use the term “I”.
Some people find it helpful to not use “I” in their internal thoughts. I don’t recommend doing this with other people or else they’ll think you’ve gone crazy! LOL But in your own thoughts, instead of thinking “I’m really tired,” try “There is tiredness arising,” or something like that. Just try it out for a day and see if it feels any different.

Srikanth: Not much difference between these two in terms of physical sensations. But I noticed when I say " i am sad" my face tends to radiate sadness but when I said " I am happy" I am smiling.

Okay, good. Do you tend to be aware of the physical manifestations of different emotions?

you are correct, now when I redid that, I noticed an oval shape opening (not a circle) but my preconceived notion of a circular opening over rode my DE initial time

.
Awesome. Fascinating, isn’t it, how something that’s so obviously right in front of us just gets completely overlooked because of our innate mental habits?

Srikanth: When I tried with these different senses same conclusion is being arrived at. It's simply what's heard, tasted, smelled or felt.

Beautiful! This is really key. Keep playing with this all throughout the day. The more you can stabilize this realization, the better!

Another thing I am observing during my meditation sessions is, when i reach a certain state of peace, there seems to be like a blanket developing in my perception and after that any sound or sensation or narrative voice in my head seems to be faded out and distant, as though they are happening a million miles away. Is this some kind of a bliss state , not sure. This seems to be last for a few hours atleast these days. In one of the recent experiences of that state, I could not even hear my heartbeat (normally i do hear that) nor any external sounds. The one thing I could hear was the soft pinging on my ears very soft and faint (I have a mild case of Tinnitus so i hear this ringing all the time)

This sounds wonderful! Are you familiar with the Jhanas (absorptive meditation states)? This sounds like exactly what you’re describing. A really excellent sign for the depth of your concentration and Samadhi.
I think meditation and these types of inquiries can deepen one another in profound ways.

Ooh, I’m sorry to hear about your problems at work! That is challenging. But hopefully the things you’re realizing here will start to change how you interact with him, and manage and handle the different types of stress you are encountering.
You are really doing phenomenally well! So again, if you need a little extra time to respond, I understand. I want to keep the momentum up, but you’re moving quickly.

If you are free this Sunday, it would be great if you could join Vince’s group. It’s for people who have at least one foot through the Gate, which you clearly do. I will PM you the details, so keep an eye out for a PM from me on the forum.

I wanted to give this to you last time, but it was too much at once. Since you’d brought up the question of still feeling like the Perspectival Self, that you exist in the place that you're looking out from...
Pay attention to what that feeling is really like.
What is that sense comprised of?
How do you know you’re really there?
Is it connected to an apparent volitional movement of the eyes?
Can anything be found there?

Take your time and keep looking into this anytime you remember to. It's also particularly good to do while meditating too!

After having done this, where do you feel like the "self" is still being felt? Do you still think that there's one inherently existing somewhere?

Keep up the amazing work, and I’ll talk to you soon!
-Todd

[Srikram28]

Hello Todd,

Thanks for your detailed responses and queries!

I am going to try the quote function, hopefully it comes out fine.

If awareness exists, which it seems it does, does it really matter whether there is identification with it?

No, It does not matter if we need to identify with awareness. It can be totally impersonal. Because even if I shift my identity from body/mind to awareness, there is still an "I " present with a larger unlimited identity. The purpose should be get rid of the "I" completely and permanently instead of making it a bigger identity.

Isn’t identification just another concept and thought that’s being witnessed?

That's a good question. I had not examined identity as a thought before, but you are right, it's just another mind made concept which is not usually questioned as we humans have an innate desire or impulse to identify with someone or something.

If you are truly the awareness, then any thoughts about being the awareness are still just thoughts that can be seen, right?

That's exactly right. When I think I am awareness , I am aware of that thought as well.

Even if there is an awareness that exists during deep sleep, is it You who is aware? Are you ever aware of being asleep and also of the other people and events happening around you in the room?

You are correct that in DE during deep sleep, I am not aware that I am sleeping . I am sure I am not aware during deep sleep. I am also not aware of the events or other people in the room. It's kind of like when someone is under general anesthetic during a surgery, they have no memory of the procedure.

Were you aware of feeling gradually more and more rested while you were sleeping?

Nope. I was not aware of anything during sleeping. Gone out like a light.

Do you notice that motions can also stop even without having a thought beforehand?

Yes. I noticed that the hand movement stopped without thinking. so yes, a thought is not always necessary.

But if you wanted to really explain in fine detail, could you actually tell them how to do something even as basic as lifting their right arm?
Try to tell me EXACTLY how to raise my right arm. You don’t even need to specify the ligaments or muscles. How do I even start the behavior before that?

Sitting in a comfortable position, slowly move your right hand to the front of the body until it flat. Then from that position, lift it up along your shoulder so that it is vertical near your right ear. Keep the arm vertical and let it fall back after some time.

Okay, good. Do you tend to be aware of the physical manifestations of different emotions?

Not usually , no. Only strong emotions like laughter and anger, I can sense the changes in the body. But for subtler emotions, don't notice much.

What is that sense comprised of?

It feels like I am looking out there through my eyes. It feels like localized awareness in me looking out.

How do you know you’re really there?

I don't really know I am there but it is not a thought but more of a sense that I am looking out.

Is it connected to an apparent volitional movement of the eyes?

Yes. Exactly. It's directly connected to the eye movements. whenever I turn my head , that's where I feel I am looking.

Can anything be found there?

I could not find anything there. No Seer can be detected. just a sense of me ..

After having done this, where do you feel like the "self" is still being felt? Do you still think that there's one inherently existing somewhere?

When I directly look for the self (or I or me) I cannot locate it anywhere. It simply does not exist in my direct experience and I looked several times a day. so my conclusion there is no such thing as self. it's just a trick of the brain , scientific terminology is DMN (Default mode network) which gets activated whenever mind is idle or day dreaming , self referential thoughts tend to come up thinking about the past or worrying about the future. I don't believe in these thoughts anymore and usually discard them as unreal.

Thanks a lot for your explanation on the Jhanas. That clarified my meditation experience quite a bit.

Look forward to seeing you shortly in Vince's session.

Thanks,
Sri