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[Arthur]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? The lack of a “me” doing anything. Everything happens, things get done, without an actual “me” doing them.

What are you looking for at LU? Help with stabilizing my experience. I have had some “breakthroughs “ but the self keeps coming back. I experience fear whenever I have these glimpses, which recoils myself back to myself, if that makes any sense.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? Honestly I’m not sure. I guess just someone to talk to with experience in these matters, and help with stabilization. Books are very helpful, but I would assume someone actually using your actual experience and questions would be better.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I have read several books, have down several direct approach investigations, and have had some perspective shifts, but nothing very lasting

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Harry]

Hello,

My name is Harry and I would be happy to guide you. Thank you for reaching out and for sharing what you have so far, which seem promising.

Lack of stability in SEEING is very common, and you’re right, referring to your actual experience is helpful.

A daily correspondence is best for this purpose, so please let me know if this is possible for you. Occasionally missing days if necessary is no problem, but if you could let me know in advance that would be great.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, have a look and let me know when you’ve read it please.


http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/



Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not ...” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


Guidelines:

2. Please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry, as there is no one here to judge you.
3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. All other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading, etc. should be put aside for the remainder of this investigation. Effort and attention should be directed into seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.


Unfortunately, technology can occasionally glitch and wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Saving a copy of what you have done will save time in the long run!


Thank you for what you have already shared about your expectations. To clarify this further for both of us, please answer the 4 following questions in your own words:

1. How will life change?
2. How will you change?
3. What will be different?
4. What is missing?


Throughout this exploration, please answer all the questions that I have written in blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660



What name would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Best wishes,

Harry

[Arthur]

1. How will life change?

I honestly have no idea. Initially, I would have said, “Very little.” But I had an experience last week which kinda shook things up for me. I had the experience of the body moving, and doing its thing, with no controller, and just me as an observer. But this observer was so alien, so distant, and honestly so uncaring, that it shocked me out of the experience after a few seconds. Is it really “supposed” to be like that all the time? It would seem a very “grey” way to exist.

2. How will you change?

Once again, I have no clue. I would think that life would just continue as it has. Since there really hasn’t ever been a doer, just being aware of the lack of a doer shouldn’t change a whole lot, I would assume.

3. What will be different?

Maybe just the tendency to personalize the experience, and arisings. A different perspective? I’m sorry, I’m back to “I don’t know?” I mean, is there still the desire to learn new skills? To be good at things? I would think that the desire to excel and learn would still be there, even without a self to personalize it?

4. What is missing?

Honestly, it just the fact that I know that the way we experience life isn’t really what is happening. Kinda the whole idea of once you see it, you don’t un see it. Honestly after my initial “seeing” i was rather disillusioned with the whole idea, maybe that was just the meat brain reasserting itself, but it did frighten me. But after a few days the realization that I wasn’t actually experiencing life as it really is came back. And now, even with the fact they I identify “myself” as a “me” less and less, I’m afraid I’m “not really there” or “I’m not doing it right” since it isn’t the void-like experience there was before. There has to be a “me” left somewhere in there, or there wouldn’t be a desire to chase an experience, or question my experience, or would there?

Sorry, that got a little long winded, I just wanted to get everything out and as honestly as possible.

Thanks so much,
J

[Arthur]

Sorry, I’m in Eastern standard time

[Harry]

Thanks you for your answers. Your honesty is really valuable here and much appreciated!

Would you like me to call you Arthur, J, or another name?

But I had an experience last week which kinda shook things up for me. I had the experience of the body moving, and doing its thing, with no controller, and just me as an observer. But this observer was so alien, so distant, and honestly so uncaring, that it shocked me out of the experience after a few seconds. Is it really “supposed” to be like that all the time? It would seem a very “grey” way to exist.

It’s great that you’ve seen the absence of agency. Let’s explore the sense of being an observer self…

Observing
Observe anything in your experience: a sight, sound, sensation, taste, smell or mental appearance.

Then look directly at experience:

Is there anything else in observing other than what is observed?
Can what is observing be found?
Can an observer, an I, a me, or anything else that is witnessing this observation be found?


All the best,
Harry

[Arthur]

J works, that’s what I typically go by anyway.

Is there anything else in observing other than what is observed?
Can what is observing be found?
Can an observer, an I, a me, or anything else that is witnessing this observation be found?

Hahaha, nope, just an experience. Really examining anything that is happening, it’s just happening. There isn’t anything outside of that happening watching it unfold, or directing it. Every aspect is a direct participant in the happening. Even my “separate observer” experience was still just another experience, when I experience it in my memory, which is really another experience….. This loop can go on infinitely, but it feels accurate. There really isn’t anything apart from awareness, watching awareness. Everything just is.
I have to admit, I still get pulled back into “I” thoughts easily, but I really wonder if it’s more of an effect of language, and verbal thoughts? Because whenever I try to find a “me” or an “I” actually causing anything, directing anything, or being involved at all I can’t find it. But I still think that way.
Thanks so much for the insight of a lack of separate observer. That was actually causing quite a bit of worry, that there isn’t really any engagement in life. Because I feel that even if there isn’t any control of what’s going on, a lack of involvement or concern at all would just lead to apathy and resignation. Still “being there” as a participant in life feels important, even if there isn’t an actual real me there, if that makes any sense at all.

Thanks,
J

[Harry]

Hi J,

Hahaha, nope, just an experience. Really examining anything that is happening, it’s just happening. There isn’t anything outside of that happening watching it unfold, or directing it. Every aspect is a direct participant in the happening. Even my “separate observer” experience was still just another experience, when I experience it in my memory, which is really another experience….. This loop can go on infinitely, but it feels accurate. There really isn’t anything apart from awareness, watching awareness. Everything just is.

Great work. How does it feel to see this?

I have to admit, I still get pulled back into “I” thoughts easily, but I really wonder if it’s more of an effect of language, and verbal thoughts? Because whenever I try to find a “me” or an “I” actually causing anything, directing anything, or being involved at all I can’t find it. But I still think that way.

Yes, distraction is a really common experience, as is the feeling of being limited by language. Language is structured dualistically, so while it has communicative value, the fact that you recognise that such language doesn’t relate to experience is great.


Can you describe the one who gets pulled back into thoughts? Is there an ‘I’ who is distracted, in addition to the distraction?

Thanks so much for the insight of a lack of separate observer. That was actually causing quite a bit of worry, that there isn’t really any engagement in life. Because I feel that even if there isn’t any control of what’s going on, a lack of involvement or concern at all would just lead to apathy and resignation. Still “being there” as a participant in life feels important, even if there isn’t an actual real me there, if that makes any sense at all.

I’m really glad to hear that seeing this has given you some freedom.

Is there a participant, passive or otherwise, that is seperate from life itself? Can someone be found that is other than life?

[Arthur]

How does it feel to see this?

Very freeing.

Can you describe the one who gets pulled back into thoughts? Is there an ‘I’ who is distracted, in addition to the distraction?

Generally it’s an “I want” thought. “I want to be better at this,” or “I want to get to do this,” “I wish I was better,” or something like that. I actually spent a good bit of time with this one this morning. “Who wants to do this?” “Who thinks they should be better at this?” And so forth. I managed to track a lot of it back to a sense of general inadequacy. Which led to “Who is inadequate?” Which was a biggie for me. I have felt inadequate and “less than” and generally inferior about things that “I” had no control over, because “I” never had control over any of it!
Everything from what I look like, how my neurology reacted to things, the thoughts it had, all the way to how my parents raised me. And the biggie was, “they” didn’t have any control over how they raised me, because they don’t have any more control than I do! And neither does anyone else! All of these “me’s” running around out there are nothing more than stories being told about our experiences, and after the fact!
It was very interesting how quickly my brain went right back to, “But I still get to do stuff, right?”, almost immediately after my epiphany! But I can see it for what it is now, and realize it’s just a thought, or an arising. Kinda like the last thrashes or death throes of something on its way out. I’m sure fun things will still happen, and my programming to want to try things out and have new experiences will still occur, but without a me to have to prove anything, I can just focus on the enjoyment of life and activities, and not feel so pressured about the outcome.
Thanks so much,
J

[Harry]

You’re very welcome. Really glad to read what you’ve written, J.

Sounds like you’re SEEING clearly.

But I can see it for what it is now, and realize it’s just a thought, or an arising.

That’s great.

I’m sure fun things will still happen, and my programming to want to try things out and have new experiences will still occur, but without a me to have to prove anything, I can just focus on the enjoyment of life and activities, and not feel so pressured about the outcome.

Yes - there has never been a self. A ‘no-self’ entity isn’t created, nor is an existing self lost. There is just a SEEING of what already always was.

Is anything missing? Do you have any questions or experiences would like to share?

[Arthur]

Is anything missing? Do you have any questions or experiences would like to share?

I’m honestly not sure right now. Still kinda in “questioning everything” mode at the moment. One thing I was kinda surprised about concerns a hobby I have picked up. I had been considering entering a Brazilian jujitsu competition, and questioning my motives actually led to my “seeking to prove something” aspect of the self, and then on to the dissection of the self. What surprised me was that there still is a desire to compete, even without a need to prove anything. Just a desire for a new experience, and really no concern for the outcome. I guess that is part of the expectation aspect of things, that “enlightened” people completely change who they are, and go sit in caves or whatnot. If anything, I feel more inclined to try new things, because there isn’t a worry of failing, or letting myself or anyone else down. I mean, things will either go great, or they won’t, and it really doesn’t matter either way. It’s just an experience, just life.
In a way, I can see how this is a much more efficient way to experience things, so much less time spend in self flagellation, without a self to beat up. Just learn from the experience, and move on.
Thanks,
J

[Harry]

Thanks for your answers, J.

Still kinda in “questioning everything” mode at the moment.

In general? Or with this inquiry into self?


Do you feel ready to take closing questions?

All the best,

Harry

[Arthur]

In general? Or with this inquiry into self?

All of the above. Basically taking nothing for granted, and really looking at everything.

Do you feel ready to take closing questions?

Let me have the weekend to settle in, and I’ll get back to you on this one.

[Harry]

All of the above. Basically taking nothing for granted, and really looking at everything.

I’d be happy to continue inquiring with you from many other angles if that feels useful for you at the moment. Feel free to let me know what you would like.

Let me have the weekend to settle in, and I’ll get back to you on this one.

No problem and no hurry, too. If you still have uncertainties or queries we can continue to explore in many ways… depends on how you feel and whether or not there is certainty in your inquiry.

All the best!

[Arthur]

So, at this point I believe I am stabilized in the lack of a “me” or a “doer.” Life seems to have a very flowing, almost dreamlike quality that is quite interesting. There are definitely still “me” or “I” thoughts, but they are easily seen through. “Real life”, daydreams, and mental tangents just kinda seem to flow into one another, which I believe contributes to the dreamlike nature of things. Emotions are still felt, “I” still get angry or frustrated, but it’s just happening, without a whole lot of input. If anything, emotions are more raw, unfiltered than before.
All in all, I think things are pretty good!
Thanks so much for all your help and insight!
J

[Harry]

You’re very welcome, J.

I’m really glad that things are going well; it all sounds very good!

Before I give you the closing questions, I just wanted to ask you about emotion… I think you may already SEE this, but just to check:

Is there anything else in 'feeling emotion' other than the emotion that is felt?

Can what is feeling the emotion be found?

Can a ‘feeler’ be found in the emotion?

Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just the emotion'?

Is the emotion itself anything more than a label for certain sensations and thoughts?