Cessation of becoming

[jmc]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The mind, body, and roles we play in life are what's mostly thought of as "me" or "self". Those are perceived to be solid and have continuity in time. They are/do not. The mind/ego creates that perception despite the fact that in reality that existence is illusory. The self doesn't exist as an entity; there's only a succession of unfoldingness.

What are you looking for at LU?
Honestly I'm not sure what to expect for sure. But I would say I'm looking to have a connection with someone on the topic of self realization since I really don't have that now, and to see any beliefs still unknowingly held. I'm certainly not looking for more knowledge in a tradition sense.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Primarily encouragement to see what needs to be seen. There are challenges in my life that provide an opportunity to see where resistance to 'what is' still exists. I suspect that a guide might be able to help me see where that resistance exists and perhaps even what form it takes. I've never had an opportunity to have an ongoing dialog on these matters and look forward to having one.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Over 30 years of a dedicated spiritual path. Began in the tradition of Thich Nhat Hanh with a strong focus on mindfulness and meditation. Then spent many years having Adyashanti as my primary teacher (and still consider him as such) - practices include inquiry, meditation, retreats, and presence. In recent years I've been pulled toward the more 'direct' path of non-duality - Nisargadatta (with a focus on having the sense of 'I am') and Rupert Spira. Along the way I have had many glimpses of 'truth', yet the illusionary self still remains.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Along the way I have had many glimpses of 'truth', yet the illusionary self still remains.

What evidence for you have for this?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Much love,

[jmc]

Hi Stacy,

My name is John. I'm 61, retired, and live outside Chicago (central time zone). I'm married, have two adult daughters and 4 grandkids.

Thanks so much for offering to be my guide. I look forward to working with you. I feel like I can meet the requirement of daily posts. I anticipate that I'll do most of them in the evening, just FYI.

How will life change?

I suspect there's quite a bit about my life that will not change very much. There will be ups and downs, relationships with good and difficult aspects, illnesses, joy, struggles, etc. On the other hand, how this body/mind functions in life, with less 'stickiness", so to speak, can change some tangible things in life. Honestly I don't know how it will all will play out. In general, I don't see my life (in traditional terms) as the basis for this exploration of Truth.

How will you change?

There is no "you" to change, right? I'm not trying to be cute with my answer but the question presumes a "you" that can change and I am feeling like that illusion is becoming more obvious. [Please let me know if I didn't interpret the question correctly.]

What will be different?

I've spent so much of my spiritual life with an idea of how I will be "better" or "more". But now, maybe because of my age, certain teachings sinking in, or just a readiness that is availing itself on it's own, that path/idea seems so much less relevant. Yes I still strive at some level, but that seems to be falling away and I've entered a period where I'm not quite sure what's important in many aspects of my life. Hence the title of this post "cessation of becoming", which is both a statement of experience and an orientation. I will say that seeking for something is still there. I would be lying if I said otherwise. But it seems quite different these days.

What is missing?

Great question. ;-) The mind certainly can name things. Or even try to answer it from an intellectual non-dual point of view. But as I sit in stillness, for just a moment now, I am that which has no answer. And for some reason tears are coming now.

What evidence for you have for this?

I wrote "Along the way I have had many glimpses of 'truth', yet the illusionary self still remains." I'm not sure whether your question is about evidence of glimpses or evidence of the illusionary self remaining. One of the most profound glimpses, in terms of an experience, was at a silent retreat where I experienced myself and everything else as love. It was not an intellectual understanding, it just was so obviously and absolutely true. In terms of an illusory self, there are instances during the day where the energy of self (fear, identity, desires, etc.) are dominant.

I look forward to hearing from you.

In gratitude,
John

[Anastacia42]

Hi John,

I got a covid booster yesterday and I'm in some serious pain and didn't sleep well. I will reply more fully as soon as I can. Probably tomorrow.

Much love,

[jmc]

Feel better Stacy. Whenever you feel up to responding is fine.

[Anastacia42]

Good morning, John,

I can't exactly say I'm better & I may take today as a sick day, but I can reply.

And you're welcome.

Your expectations are mostly reasonable. Good that you don't expect some state of perpetual bliss. In fact, SEEING will come & go, usually for a long time. This leads some time disbelieve that they have SEEN, but they have. It just isn't stable & that's normal.

Yes, asking what evidence for you have for this illusory self? We will come back to that.

I experienced myself and everything else as love.

Yes, that could be it, seeing no self.

In terms of an illusory self, there are instances during the day where the energy of self (fear, identity, desires, etc.) are dominant.

Let me correct the sentence above to something truer:

There are instances during the day when you believe the thought story, which is all lies and only *think* this is a "self." It is not.


What comes up when is read that there is no self, never has been & never will be? That it is all made up stories?


Loving,

[jmc]

Hope you feel better tomorrow Stacy. I've actually been procrastinating getting my second booster because of how I might feel afterward. :-| I just need to go get it over with though.

What comes up when is read that there is no self, never has been & never will be? That it is all made up stories?

I've been drawn to certain non-dual teachings for the last 4 or 5 years. It began with reading Nisargadatta's I Am That which became more like a transmission of sorts. It actually took me over 4 months to get through it because of how it impacted me. So obviously that idea of no self is something I've heard before. But as I sit here now, here's what comes up.

- I feel like there is a shift happening where the experience of a solid self is more transparent. The being of 'no self', if we want to call it that, feels more and more naturally available.

- That said, thoughts and stories are still largely believed.

- There is an immensity with that statement that feels like it will never be understood or accepted by the mind. In some respects it's unbelievable. And perhaps even scary for the mind to contemplate

- To that point, I've come to see how this process of liberation/realization can never be a product of the mind.

That seems to be what comes up for now.

John

[Anastacia42]

Okay. Good.

That question checks for fear & seems you have some, which is normal. Let me point out that there has *never* been s separate self, so what could there be to fear about that? Reading Gateless Gatecrashers, available under Resources here or Liberation Unleashed, available from Amazon will give you a sense of how others have responded to SEEING.

By the way, I'm 62 & near Boulder, Colorado.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Posting meetings you might want to attend on Zoom

Zoom meetups

LU Monthly Meetup

3rd sat 6pm UK time & Sunday 10am London UK time each month
Topic: Unleashed Monthly Meeting
Join Zoom Meeting
Meeting ID: 371 892 9853
Passcode: HmbSF4

For Seekers (& Guides)

Monday May 2
7am Sydney, Australia
This one - reoccurrence to be decided.
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86991485768...
Meeting ID: 869 9148 5768
Passcode: 083035

For Newly Gated/One Foot Through

Monday May 9
5am Sydney time
Same link, meeting id, passcode
This one every fortnight

If those links don't work, let me know. They seem to have been shortened.

[jmc]

Thanks Stacy. The use of direct/actual experience vs the mind/knowledge is very clear for me. I’ve been fortunate to have been given that direction consistently over the years. It’s actually taken root recently in a way where when in stillness, thought is seen as just another experience (not most of the time however).

Also thanks for the Zoom meetings info. I’ll be honest though, I’m a somewhat reluctant to be in discussion about this matter of self realization. It’s hard to explain, but for me at this time, it feels like using the wrong muscle so to speak. The right muscle is more along the lines of silence and stillness. Anything else, other than working with someone like you, feels counterproductive. I hope that makes sense, and I would be interested in your thoughts on it.

John

[Anastacia42]

Hi John,

The right muscle is more along the lines of silence and stillness. Anything else, other than working with someone like you, feels counterproductive. I hope that makes sense, and I would be interested in your thoughts on it.

That is perfectly fine.

Okay, let's practice direct looking:

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. This means *exactly*

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[jmc]

Hi Stacy,

I’ll do this more tomorrow since I didn’t get much time at it this evening. Below are a couple activities from this evening.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. This means *exactly* what I noted this evening.

Sitting with dogs on sofa:
Seeing dogs brown,white, black/ asleep / small stature, simply = image, color
Smelling nothing in particular
Feeling the warmth of their bodies /softness, simply = sensation
Hearing snoring / breathing, simply = sound
Thought about their nervousness today, simply = thought

Watching TV:
Seeing colors on screen,images of people and places, simply = images, color
Feeling comfortable on sofa, simply = sensation
Hearing voices, simply = sound
Thoughts about stock market news, simply = thoughts

Let me know if I did it as you meant by “exactly”. Not quite sure. 😉

John

[Anastacia42]

Good morning!

Yes, you got it "exactly," You wouldn't believe how some folks rearrange everything.

You've got it.

How did it FEEL to see only Direct Experience of your 5 Senses and notice that Thoughts Arise and content means nothing?

It sounds like you may already be SEEING & are experiencing what some call, "got it, lost it." Please watch these 2 short videos:

Watch these, please:

https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w


When you're ready, here is your next pointer. No hurry.

Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving,

[jmc]

Good evening Stacy.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. This means *exactly*

Well I wasn’t very successful at doing the exercise from yesterday while I was involved in an activity today. I’m remodeling a bathroom and spent most of the day working on it. I find that it takes a level of concentration that keeps me focused on the tasks. However when I finished for the day later in the afternoon, I took some time to sit quietly and explore my direct experience. While it wasn’t during an “activity”, the orientation to direct experience at that time was palpable. Here’s my shot at using the format you requested.

Seeing the objects in the room (sofa, fireplace, windows, etc), simply= image/color
Feeling body aches from work today, simply = sensation
Hearing birds, simply = sound
Thought about remembering to come back to only direct experience, simply = thought

How did it FEEL to see only Direct Experience of your 5 Senses and notice that Thoughts Arise and content means nothing?

During the noticing of direct experience, particularly today, there was a sense of freedom, of not being attached or grasping in the normal way. And the mind didn’t engage as quickly.

Watch these, please:

Done. The one by Ilona resonated much more. While I used to have the feeling like “had it, lost it”, I don’t anymore, not for a quite some time. I truly see that nothing goes away, even when the experience is not preferred.

I will do the Mind Labeling Experience later tonight or tomorrow.

With gratitude,
John

[Anastacia42]

All good, John. I'll watch for the next one.

Loving,