See through the illusion

[Luhelen]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Intellectual understand there’s no self. Never see no self directly . According many saints such as Papaji, Maharashi, Tony Parsons, Mooji, Zen, Robert Adam, Nisargadatta,J Krishnamurti,Gangaji,etc, there’s no self. Yet I still have not achieved.

What are you looking for at LU?
Heard from Ms Luchana that she achieved through LU forums. Since I have tried many methods, watched many video, read many spiritual articles ,many quotes. Still same as before. Maybe through guiding from LU, I can have a clear seeing of no self, see through the story.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Through conversation that I can understand and follow ,guiding me to discover my obstacles ,the problem I face. Maybe the guide can provides some exercise for me to practice . But I have heard from Tony that there’s no path or method to follow

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Practice “ask myself who am I?”, practice looking at the thoughts in my head, practice focus “I am”, in fact I don’t know where to focus

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
8

[Luchana]

Hi Luhelen,

I read your intro and felt an impulse to write you. I can walk with you here and see what happens. How do you feel about this?

Before we start please look at these questions and reply honestly:

What will happen when the illusion of a self is seen through?
How wil lifel change?
How will you change?
What will be different?

Reply each question individualy.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
8

Is there a particular reason to reply with 8? Questioning one's own beliefs is all what is happening here.


Much love,
Luchana

[Luhelen]

Hi Luchana,
So touching ,so happy , so exited to hear from you ! Appreciated so much that you are willing to walk with me .

1) I cannot figure out what will happen when a illusion self is seen through. Whatever answers come out from my head are merely imagination .

2) life maybe still the same, maybe won’t struggle so much in the story ( I used the word maybe coz I wouldn’t know what will happen)

3) if can seen through the illusion self, will that the “me” still around? Cannot figure out.

4) the different is see “no self “ truly, not only know it intellectually .

5) reply with 8 coz I don’t know how to ask questions.

I appreciate so much for your patience Luchana

Love from Luhelen

[Luchana]

Hi Luhelen,

So touching ,so happy , so exited to hear from you ! Appreciated so much that you are willing to walk with me .

There is a joy also here :-) You are most welcome.

Thank you for your reply and asnwers regarding expectations.
It's quite common that very easy one can miss something obvious because expecting something to happen, to change, to desolve, to disappear etc. Even what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation.

From my experience I can share with you that it's never, ever the way we expected to be.

1) I cannot figure out what will happen when a illusion self is seen through. Whatever answers come out from my head are merely imagination .

Exactly. And yet some hidden expectations can show themsleves during the investigation. But all of them are on behalf of a separate self. The self imagines what it wants for itself. But it can never imagines what would it be without it.

2) life maybe still the same, maybe won’t struggle so much in the story ( I used the word maybe coz I wouldn’t know what will happen)

"Won't struggle so much" may or may not happen. For each one is different and it never be known in advance.
There is ALREADY no-self, there is ALREADY worries and feeling could stick too, and yet worries and feelings appear. So why would this change if the self illusion is seen for what it is?
"Struggle so much in the story" already doesn't happen, it's just SEEMS that way. But just because the self is seen for to be an illusion, it doesn't mean that it will stop appearing. The self-illusion will go on, just as the seeming struggle so much in the story.

And "I don't know" what will happen is the only "thing" we have :-)

3) if can seen through the illusion self, will that the “me” still around? Cannot figure out.

:-)
"Me" is just a word, the feeling of me is nothing more than thougth+sensation. And seeing trough the illusion that there is no me - just thoughts and sensations wount prevent thoughts and sensations from aapearing.
Some emotions like anger, rage still can appear, some sensations like rigidness, tention also. And why would these stop just because the illusion of a self is seen through?
The old habbits, emotional trauma and pain don’t desolve in an instant the moment you see no-self. Some of them (if not all) requires lot's of future looking and somethimes these could disolve till the end of this lifetime. Seeing no - self is the first step and usually it is easier to continue the inner work when the illusion is seen through (if there is an umpuls to do this) And the personality stays almost intact.

4) the different is see “no self “ truly, not only know it intellectually .

And this is exactly what is happening here. Seeing experientially that there never was a separate self, a me, Luhelen to begin with. And the experiential seeing makes "the difference".
We can watch hundreds of videos and read tons of books of someone else experience, but it won't matter. All this is like reading only a menu in the restorant and never order a meal.

So are you ready for a REAL food? :-)

5) reply with 8 coz I don’t know how to ask questions.

Oh, do not worry, here I'm going to ask questions. And your "work" will be to look at your own direct experience and reply.
That's all. It is uterly simple :-)

Please read my comments several times and see your expecrations from a different perspective.

Is there a resistance to any of it?

And are you ready to dive?

Much love,
Luchana



ps. And a request - in order for our chat to go smotly, please look here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ
how to use a quote function.

Much love,
Luchana

[Luhelen]

Hi Luchana,


From my experience I can share with you that it's never, ever the way we expected to be.
( Thank you so much)

Exactly. And yet some hidden expectations can show themsleves during the investigation. But all of them are on behalf of a separate self. The self imagines what it wants for itself. But it can never imagines what would it be without it.
(Yes, agreed )

And "I don't know" what will happen is the only "thing" we have :-)
(Ya, don’t know what will happen)

"Me" is just a word, the feeling of me is nothing more than thougth+sensation.
( but there’s a strong feeling that It’s refer to myself not other people 😅)

So are you ready for a REAL food? :-)
( I don’t want the menu anymore, for sure I want a REAL food ):-)

Oh, do not worry, here I'm going to ask questions. And your "work" will be to look at your own direct experience and reply.
That's all. It is uterly simple :-)
( that’s a good news for me, I really don’t know how to ask the right question)

Is there a resistance to any of it?
And are you ready to dive?
( no resistance presently. I am ready to dive :-) )

Lots love from
Luhelen

[Luhelen]

Hi Luchana,

It's quite common that very easy one can miss something obvious because expecting something to happen, to change, to desolve, to disappear etc. Even what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation.

You are right, i am expecting “Myself “to be disappeared ,to be resolved as mentioned in those spiritual teachings . What is that something obvious you mentioned? Have I ignored anything all this while? Your statement made me curious;-)

And yet some hidden expectations can show themsleves during the investigation.

One of The hidden expectations is expecting can see the no self all of sudden, yet it never happens:-/

There is ALREADY no-self, there is ALREADY worries and feeling could stick too, and yet worries and feelings appear. So why would this change if the self illusion is seen for what it is?

You mentioned Already no-self, does it mean no-self is right in front of me but I have not seen it because I am expecting something else ?
Even seen through the illusion self, life still the same, is that it? Well it’s okay for me.

Seeing no - self is the first step and usually it is easier to continue the inner work when the illusion is seen through (if there is an umpuls to do this) And the personality stays almost intact.

Presently Not even first step :-(

Love from Luhelen

[Luchana]

Hi Luhelen.

thank you for your replies.

( I don’t want the menu anymore, for sure I want a REAL food ):-)

Nice :-)

Is there a resistance to any of it?
And are you ready to dive?

( no resistance presently. I am ready to dive :-) )

Lovely to read. If resistance or fear shows up lately - just share with me.

Your statement made me curious;-)

Curiosity is a good sign.

Seeing no - self is the first step and usually it is easier to continue the inner work when the illusion is seen through (if there is an umpuls to do this) And the personality stays almost intact.

Presently Not even first step :-(

Oh, but what if the step is been taken already. It just not you doing it.

Is there a resistance to any of it?
And are you ready to dive?

( no resistance presently. I am ready to dive :-) )

Lovely to read. If resistance or fear shows up lately - just share with me.
So, let's dive.


Look at these questions and reply how it is at experience.
Do not "think" about the answers, rather look.


Tell me, what do you do precisely in order to think?

How do you make a thought into existence?

Can you follow a thought to its destination?

Can you trace a thought back from where it has come?


Reply each question in italic individualy using quote function - I can see you already manage it:-)
Do not rush to reply, take your time.

Much love,
Luchana

[Luhelen]

Morning Luchana,

Oh, but what if the step is been taken already. It just not you doing it.

Oh !Really? Am I blind now?

If resistance or fear shows up lately - just share with me.

Sure.

How do you make a thought into existence?

If I don’t recall something, don’t search something from the memory, the thought shows by itself, suddenly remind me to do something, suddenly a thought regarding the past shows up, suddenly a thought of worry something else,etc.
It seems thought different from me. I follow it’s instructions to do things

That’s all for now.

Love from Luhelen

[Luhelen]

Hi Luchana,

Tell me, what do you do precisely in order to think?

If I was asked to think without given any particular “object “,I don’t know what to think.if I was asked to think a lemon, the image of lemon come out. It seems I don’t purposely do thinking, thoughts pop up by itself. I will think when some problem need to be solved.some questions need to be answered.
Now I realize whatever I can think belongs to the past :-0

Can you follow a thought to its destination?

Actually I can’t see the thought clearly, it pop up as a continuous sound in my head. When I try to standby to see it pop up, nothing pop up. When no attention given to it,it starts chattering around .
Thought disappeared when I see it. I wonder whether it’s destination is “ disappeared “?

Love from Luhelen

[Luchana]

Hi Luhelen,

If I don’t recall something, don’t search something from the memory, the thought shows by itself, suddenly remind me to do something, suddenly a thought regarding the past shows up, suddenly a thought of worry something else,etc.
It seems thought different from me. I follow it’s instructions to do things

You are thinking about the answers and not looking. Thinking is not going to help. thinking is dead end. Look at how thoughts are coming and going and reply from experience:

Did you do something particular is order for these thoughts to appear and disappear?

If I was asked to think without given any particular “object “,I don’t know what to think.if I was asked to think a lemon, the image of lemon come out. It seems I don’t purposely do thinking, thoughts pop up by itself. I will think when some problem need to be solved.some questions need to be answered.

mm, so without a thought you are not be capable to jump out of the road when a truck is coming on fast speed straight against you ?
Wil you wait for a thought to tell you to do so?

if I was asked to think a lemon, the image of lemon come out.

Let's play here. Set a timer for 10 min and try to think ONLY about a yellow, juisy lemon and not about ANYTHING else.
Let me know what you find.

Actually I can’t see the thought clearly, it pop up as a continuous sound in my head. When I try to standby to see it pop up, nothing pop up. When no attention given to it,it starts chattering around .
Thought disappeared when I see it. I wonder whether it’s destination is “ disappeared “?

Do you really see how thought pop up as a continuous sound in your head?
I mean literally?
How is this experienced?
Is there a store in so called your head and from there thought pops up?

Watch like a hawk. Try to not reasoning and intellectualizing and do not refer to a thought about what is going on. Just simple facts.

Take your time
Much love,
Luchana

[Luhelen]

Hi Luchana,

Let's play here. Set a Let's play here. Set a timer for 10 min and try to think ONLY about a yellow, juisy lemon and not about ANYTHING else.

At first the image of yellow lemon was clear, in between other thought kept on interrupting , I concentrated to think the yellow lemon only, the lemon’ color gradually faded ,the shape also blurred . I kept on thinking the yellow lemon, it was very hard to have the image of yellow lemon , not even the shape of lemon, the whole thing blurred, what was that,couldn’t figure out . Suddenly the alarm ringing.

You are thinking about the answers and not looking. Thinking is not going to help. thinking is dead end. Look at how thoughts are coming and going and reply from experience:

I am learning to look at thoughts .
I wish I could able to look properly .

mm, so without a thought you are not be capable to jump out of the road when a truck is coming on fast speed straight against you ?
Wil you wait for a thought to tell you to do so?

Common sense,Of course I will run away without thinking. So, it proved that not a thought to tell me to do so?

Can you trace a thought back from where it has come?

Unable to do so. I don’t know where the thought came from

Did you do something particular is order for there thoughts to appear and disappear?

I try to not to think, still there’s some thoughts at the background .
I am unable to make thoughts disappear.
I try to think ,but before I think,thoughts are already there.
I am unable to make thoughts appear.

Love from Luhelen

[Luchana]

Hi Luhelen,
Sorry for dely, but site is crashing from time to time.
Just to know that it is ok to write your reply somewhere else not directly in the forum, because sometimes it may disappear.

At first the image of yellow lemon was clear, in between other thought kept on interrupting , I concentrated to think the yellow lemon only, the lemon’ color gradually faded ,the shape also blurred . I kept on thinking the yellow lemon, it was very hard to have the image of yellow lemon , not even the shape of lemon, the whole thing blurred, what was that,couldn’t figure out . Suddenly the alarm ringing.

Nice observation.
So sumirising - it is not possible to think on purpose only about a lemon? Other thoughts are coming regardless your efforts?

I am learning to look at thoughts .
I wish I could able to look properly .

It is not about learning. Learing is also thought based.
But it's ok and nothing to worry about. We are all so habbitually immersed into thinking that in the begining (only in the begining) seems to be hard to look directly in experience

Here something which may help.

What is Direct/Actual Experience? Everything we can experience with the 5 senses+thought (noticing the thought, but not what content of the thought is )
So, when we say Direct Experience we mean - what is it that we see now, what is it that we hear now, what is it that we taste now, what is it that we can smell now, what is it that we can touch now? + thought on the surface, but not what thought is about.

For example - If I ask you what is the colour of your socks today you can "think" and remember what socks did you pick this morning, or you just look and see what colour are they really.

Can you see the difference?

Common sense,Of course I will run away without thinking. So, it proved that not a thought to tell me to do so?

What is common sense when you observe it right now at this very moment?
How is "common sense" experienced?
Using the 5 sences from the above?

Can you trace a thought back from where it has come?

Unable to do so. I don’t know where the thought came from

Exactly. This is looking. When you look - you see that there is no way to know where the thought came from.

I try to not to think, still there’s some thoughts at the background .
I am unable to make thoughts disappear.
I try to think ,but before I think,thoughts are already there.
I am unable to make thoughts appear.

What can a thought do?
Can a thought think?




Again - read the DE hint above and look how it is happening. Regardless of all thoughts about it.

Much love
Luchana

[Luhelen]

Hi Luchana,

Don’t worry for the delay,I understand you are busy too.

Just to know that it is ok to write your reply somewhere else not directly in the forum, because sometimes it may disappear.

You may email to me : helechankam@yahoo.com

So sumirising - it is not possible to think on purpose only about a lemon? Other thoughts are coming regardless your efforts?

Yes, efforts is useless.When thinking of lemon, in between interrupted by other thought ,gradually lemon also blur in sight ,unable to grab hold of the image of lemon .

Can you see the difference?

Yes, I can see the different. See/Feel/hear/taste/ smell directly what is happening.
I hold the cup and drink water that I can feel the cup, can feel the water, can see the cup can see the water,can taste the water. ( is it DE?)

What is common sense when you observe it right now at this very moment?

Right now, I see the wall in front of me. Listening to the music. Feel the sense on the chair,feel the wind blow by the fan. Feel the keyboard on finger tips .feel the taste in my mouth. Thinking the wording to type on keyboard.

Love from Luhelen

[Luchana]

Hi Luhelen,

I just notice that you've missed some questions, so here they are again

I try to not to think, still there’s some thoughts at the background .
I am unable to make thoughts disappear.
I try to think ,but before I think,thoughts are already there.
I am unable to make thoughts appear.

What can a thought do?
Can a thought think?



I will give you a reply to all of them afterwards.

Much love,
Luchana

[Luhelen]

Hi Luchana


,

What can a thought do?
Can a thought think?

I am still not sure of what can a thought do. Thoughts just passed by like that.
I am not sure whether thought can think or not?
Need some more time to observe it.

Love from Luhelen