Hoping to experience world as it is

[Lila61]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That there is believed to be a sense of “someone” that is living life, has problems, has a body, has a family, will get sick and die, but that “someone” is just a meaningless concept that doesn’t exist. But it is reponsible for sense of suffering.

What are you looking for at LU?
From watching Lubo and Luchana, they say that the questions can bring about the direct experience of what non dual speakers are saying “you “ will never get, and can end the seeking when this is found.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I don’t know what to expect, but there is hope that without the mind filled with personal thoughts and striving, the world can be experienced as it is without a personal agenda coloring perception. Hoped that constant anxiety and fear about illness and death of the body will ease when they are seen to relate to no one.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Followed Mooji for 5 years, did try earnestly to inquire and also to see that there is no personal self. He did give a lot of guidance to look for the person, look for a sufferer within the body, theory being when it is not found there will be freedom. This was never discovered. The last year has changed to listening to radical non duality message of Tony Parsons and others.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Luchana]

Hi Lila,

glad that you make it here. Please, post once a day. It really hepls the focus.

I read your intro and and here what comes :

Hoped that constant anxiety and fear about illness and death of the body will ease when they are seen to relate to no one.

Mm, this is quite unrealistic and sorry for brining the bad news, but some old trauma, ilness or emotial issues are not going to fix the moment you see trough illusion.

There is no you even now and anxiety and fear are happening..


Can you also look at these questions before we start:

What do you hope will be different after experiential recognition that there is no selft?

How will life change?

How will you change?


Reply each one individually honestly.

Much love,
Luchana

[Lila61]

Hi Luchana,

I do see that anxiety and worry were already happening even though there never has really been a me. The hope is based on what has been heard from speakers who say that in some ways nothing changes, but everything does when the belief that there is a me is seen through. That those feelings can still come, but don’t stick.
Yesterday I downloaded the LU app and went through some of the direct experience questions and strangely (because I thought I have been asking those same questions for 5 years!) there has seemed to be seeing that there’s nothing but thought saying “I could have cancer now … or some day get cancer” that is worried about cancer.. and that seems to matter I as much as there seems no motive to move on to next thought about that. The usual sensations of fear didn’t really arise as usual. It’s not a me deciding not to react, just a strong reaction didn’t happen. I know there wasn’t a me deciding to react strongly before that,either, but it seems like something (just going to say brain function? As a story!) can “decide” reacting is pointless, wasted energy 🤷‍♀️ It wasn’t a thought process like that, though!
I can’t seem to go back to see what your questions are as I write, I remember one is how do I expect my life will change if the illusion will be seen through. I suppose I do expect less drama and more direct experience, less living as the imaginary thought stream if it’s seen to be unreal. But since it is a though stream saying this, I don’t know.
How I hope or expect my life will change, there haven’t really been projections about changes to daily life. I guess there is some hope based on some glimpses and on what many speakers say is that life will be amazing just as it is. To watch Theo laugh, the sparkle of Ariana’s eyes, looking around at the world in wonder, Tim Cliss talk about great sadness and loss, but with a sense of joy and peace, there is a hope that life can be simultaneous experienced as amazing even with extreme sadness or any other emotion?
I suppose maybe there is still also an underlying hope that I will be better in some way, less selfish, more giving, a better “person”. And it may matter more to be perceived that way by my own (adult) children than “others”, but that probably still matters.

[Luchana]

Hi Lila,

thank you for your honesty.

I suppose I do expect less drama and more direct experience, less living as the imaginary thought stream if it’s seen to be unreal. But since it is a though stream saying this, I don’t know.

Less drama may or may not happen. No one can say in advance. For each one is different. But It's quite common that very easy one can miss something obvious because expecting something to happe - less drama let's say, something to change, to disappear, not to stick, to be more peaceful etc. Even what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. From my experience I can share with you that it's never, ever the way I expected to be.

And "I don't know" in the end is quite nice :-)

There is ALREADY no-self, there is ALREADY worries and feeling could stick too, and yet worries and feelings appear. So why would this change if the self illusion is seen for what it is?

Seeing through the self is just the first step, just the beginning, and lots of further looking is needed after, in order for conditionings to gradually fall away. And this 'falling away' can last at the end of the organism.

Also, many emotions are result of conditioned patters stemming from childhood, from traumas, and all sort of personality issues. But these things won't change just because the self is seen through. The personality stays almost completely intact. Lots of further looking is needed to resolve these patters.

I guess there is some hope based on some glimpses and on what many speakers say is that life will be amazing just as it is. To watch Theo laugh, the sparkle of Ariana’s eyes, looking around at the world in wonder, Tim Cliss talk about great sadness and loss, but with a sense of joy and peace, there is a hope that life can be simultaneous experienced as amazing even with extreme sadness or any other emotion?

Maybe it is time for you to start tasting the food, instead of reading the menu...?
It woud advice you to stop for a while watching various kinds of videos. Not because they are bad or wrong, but because they put more expectations, more concepts and more labels to this, which is quite simple and always, always avaiable here in your own direct experience.
This is your highest authorty - the direct immediacy of what can be experienced with the sences + thoughts (but not what thoughts are saying, not their content)

I suppose maybe there is still also an underlying hope that I will be better in some way, less selfish, more giving, a better “person”. And it may matter more to be perceived that way by my own (adult) children than “others”, but that probably still matters.

yea, it is so natural for each human to be better in some way, but only imagined self can dream what it wants for itself.
It can't imagine what it would be without it.

The truth is always here now when it is looked. Simple and obvious. All masters and sages point that out. But it has to be seen experientially not just intellectually. And this is exactly what we are doing here.

Leaving your expectations and dive into this inquiry completly fresh is a good starting point

Please read my comments several times and see your expecrations from a different perspective.

Is there a resistance to any of it?


Much love,
Luchana

[Lila61]

Hi Luchana,

I wrote an answer to the question and thought saved it as a draft, but I can’t seem to load it here.
I wrote that there is resistance to what is heard as nothing changing for seeing that there is no self. The thought that this could stay and require work until the end of life seems seems very bad news because the first 55 years of life were spent trying to fix the conditioning with therapy, etc but it was never “it”. I guess it is heard as there will always be suffering as long as this body is alive, and relising that there is no me it comes for won’t change anything.
I can see the first part of what you wrote makes sense that expecting any outcome, what is really there would be missed, but there is discouragement about the point of looking to know there is no me if nothing will change.
Think that is all I had said. Thank you ❤️

[Luchana]

Hi dear Lila,
Ooo, the wave of disapointment is coming here. I understand what exactly you are experiencing right now.

I wrote that there is resistance to what is heard as nothing changing for seeing that there is no self. The thought that this could stay and require work until the end of life seems seems very bad news because the first 55 years of life were spent trying to fix the conditioning with therapy, etc but it was never “it”. I guess it is heard as there will always be suffering as long as this body is alive, and relising that there is no me it comes for won’t change anything.

Of cource not, there is no suffering at all, don't wory. There is no suffering even now. Don't believe the image which the thoughts suggest about the upcoming awfull future. You are already saved, you are completly inocent.
You are in front of the Gateless Gate and just drop all hope here, the one who is hoping also and you will see something that thoughts cannot imagine :)
Nothing will change, but paradoxically noting will be the same anymore.

Notice that you are not alone in this investigation.
Lets meet this disapointment together. let it be here, don't believe the thoughts which say "This is not good to be here".
Meet this disapointment as if it is your dog coming home wet, dirty and hungry for love.
Noice also with love, that this disapointment is a protective mehanisum, look behind it.
What is there?
Is there something behind the protection?
Is there a hopER? What is behind the hope?

Much Love,
Luchana

[Lila61]

Hi Luchana,

I don’t see anything behind the protective mechanism (feeling of disappointment) though that feeling isn’t as strong now after reading your messages earlier today. The idea that nothing will ever change isn’t happening now because there don’t seem to be so much resistance sensations right now. But a quick thought that there could be something wrong with my body due to a pain that was just noticed brought a wave of sensation that is similar, and assuming that is also trying to protect something. I can’t see anything that it is trying to protect, or anything behind the feeling. I can’t find a protector. I can’t find a hopeER behind the hope, just a thought that seems to keep reforming, something like “I know there was a hope” or hope is assumed to have been here. I also can’t find anyone who is looking for the hoper, or typing this, but also a thought that I still believe there is someone 🤷‍♀️
Thank you Luchana ❤️

[Luchana]

Hi Lila,
Wow, wonderfull.
Yes, there is nothing behind any protection.
There is no self.
Was there ever?

Is there something REAL behind the thought "I, self?

Is there any substance in the thought "I, self"


Look for a whole day and write what comes up.


Much love
Luchana

[Lila61]

Hi Luchana,

Sorry for the delay, there has seemingly been resistance to the idea of looking for a whole day, and fear that looking might just reinforce the sense of a seeker as most radical nonduality speakers insist. That view seems to be supported by the idea of having spent 5 years looking for I and failing to failing to discover the lack of it. I guess though one whole day isn’t going to make a difference. But also the kind of resistance may mostly be forgetting to ask the question in the day, then thought that I’m not being good enough and feeling guilty.. just right now I can ask is there actually someone asking this.. and there is just the thoughts, no one asking them.

Thank you, Luchana ❤️

[Luchana]

Hi Lila,

Sorry for the delay, there has seemingly been resistance to the idea of looking for a whole day,

yes, its happens just resistance appears and then disappears, this is not constant and it has no meaning either.

and fear that looking might just reinforce the sense of a seeker as most radical nonduality speakers insist.

But what's the problem? Yes fear may appear but is it realy scary the sense of seeker to be here?
What exactly is this sense made up?
is it realy dangerous for ANY feeling to be here? Notice that these are just feelings but nor there there is a tiger in the room?
Meet the seeking energy , stay with it and notice is there a REAL seeker behind it?

That view seems to be supported by the idea of having spent 5 years looking for I and failing to failing to discover the lack of it. I guess though one whole day isn’t going to make a difference.

Yes, this is just an idea. Thoughts about topic, notings wrong and noting important.

Look - can a thought think?

But also the kind of resistance may mostly be forgetting to ask the question in the day, then thought that I’m not being good enough and feeling guilty.. just right now I can ask is there actually someone asking this.. and there is just the thoughts, no one asking them.

Wonderful that you can see this. yes the guilt is a belief that the voice of shame is taken for the voice ot God or Truth, but this is just a thought, yes!

Much love
Luchana

[Lila61]

is it really scary for the sense of the seeker to be here?

Since our live meeting this morning, it still does seem that the sense of the seeker is fear, but that nothing else is afraid of it. Thoughts speak about it, but they aren't really affected by it.

"is it really dangerous for ANY feeling to be here? is there reallly a tiger in the room? " The feeling itself isn't dangerous. I know it's a story to say that the feeling doesn't seem to want to here, that it seems to want action to be taken to make sure there's no tiger waiting outside the door, so it doesn't have to be here. It is only brought into existence by a thoughts that there could be danger to prepare for, but it seems that it doesn't want to do this job anymore because it suffers whenever it is brought into existence to "help". thought wondering what it is helping? is there anything that needs help? there's a body but the body doesn't seem to mind what happens. It seems like the feeling mistakes it's own self for someone that needs help.. but this may just be thoughts trying to come up with an explanation to know what's going on. But the thoughts themselves don't mind what happens either, only the sensations seem to mind.. or maybe the sensation combined with the thoughts. I don't know!
Is there a real seeker behind the seeking energy? No, just the feelings and thoughs and whatever action of seeking, whether scrolling or watching nonduality videos, or playing a game or googling health symptoms.. etc! I'm not sure if there can be just a seeking energy without an activity of seeking, even if it's just thought activity?
Yes, i can see that the guilt and shame are based on the idea that there someone that can be right or wrong... ?
These answers seem to come from a "me" , but that me is also just the same sensation, and there's no proof that these words come from the sensation, just happening at the same time (apparently!).
Thank you Luchana!

[Luchana]

Hi Lila,

you did a very good looking!

thought wondering what it is helping? is there anything that needs help? there's a body but the body doesn't seem to mind what happens.

Wonderful question - Whom thoughts are helping to?
Notice is there indentification that someone or something IS the body?
Does the body know thoughts?
Do the thoughts really can help or they are just comenting?

It seems like the feeling mistakes it's own self for someone that needs help..

Nice, notice who claims that there is someone for whom feelings are comming?
Do the feelings protect anyone or there are just feelings?

or maybe the sensation combined with the thoughts.

Yes :) Here it is an example: let thoughts bring a picture of juicy lemon, squeeze this imaginary lemon... play with this until body starts react, OK?
Then notice is there a REAL lemon at all?
In the same way notice the usual dangerous story which thoughts are telling about the self in danger , then notise the sensations of fear and anxiety, OK?
Look - is there a real self at all.

Thank you Luchana!

You are most welcome :)

Much love,
Luchana

[Lila61]

Hi Luchana,

It seems like the thoughts are helping the sensation that it calls by a name, like agitation, suffering, seeking, restlessness, anxiety, fear, etc... it seems like it is all the same sensation but different names put on it depending on what thought comes to identify the cause of it, but there is an assumption that they are affecting a "me". But there doesn't seem to be a "me" separate from the sensation.

to answer question is there identification that someone or something IS the body? It seems as if there is identificaiton that there is an I that IS the emotions, which are really just sensations in the body.. like heat or tightness or nervous energy. But the thoughts seem to identify those emotions as "me". it seems as if the body is seen as a house for someone, something that "I" need in order to live, but not what it is.

does the body know thoughts?

. If I think of the body as just the sensations and maybe space they are in, then it doesn't know thoughts. But I am not sure what defines the body.

do thoughts really help, or are they just commenting?

It has been assumed that thoughts can help, like the words coming to answer these questions are thoughts, but in taking the time to look for answers to these questions, it seems more apparent that the the answers come from nothing and nowhere and no one at all. The commenting happens but the nothing doesn't need any answers, even though (or because?) there is no nothing.. Only the thoughts need answers. But no answers help them, just lead to more thoughts.

who claims that there is someone for whom feelings are coming?

. Just the thoughts that go with "me" , which seems to take the feelings as proof that it is real. As if the feeling is the body, but not really the physical body somehow! More like an entity that lives in the body but isn't the body. But it's funny because the one who thoughts think the feelings are coming for is just the feeling. Feelings coming for the feeling.

Do the feelings protect anyone or there are just feelings?

There are just feelings.. there is no someone apart from the feelings themselves to protect.

question : (like imaginary lemon) when dangerous story that thoughts are telling about a self in danger, and notice sensations of fear and anxiety Then look, is there a real self at all?
There is resistance to this question, and thoughts suggesting again that the feeling itself and an image of a body shape IS a real self! There are stronger sensations that feel a little panicky. But this is coming from nothing, not someone. Nobody is resisting or suggesting, it's just sensations and thought interpreting..

Interesting that all questions seemed fairly easy to look at, until the last one, then there was a sense of unwillingness.. but nobody being unwilling!

Thank you Luchana!

Also thank you and Lubo for meeting today, lots of same type of questions!

[Luchana]

Hi Lila,

There is resistance to this question, and thoughts suggesting again that the feeling itself and an image of a body shape IS a real self! There are stronger sensations that feel a little panicky. But this is coming from nothing, not someone. Nobody is resisting or suggesting, it's just sensations and thought interpreting..

Interesting that all questions seemed fairly easy to look at, until the last one, then there was a sense of unwillingness.. but nobody being unwilling!

Wonderful that you see this resistance. Thoughts say don't go there, these feelings are so dangeros, look in other direction and find prove that these feelings are here because this or that. The projection is that something must be changed, something must be done in order for this sensation of danger to disapier, is it like this?
Notice that the thoughts are just simbols but not reality?
Do the sensations REALLY dangerous? Meet them and find the answer :)

there is identificaiton that there is an I that IS the emotions

Yes its seems that "Iam angry/skary..." but is it posible for you to be something that is experienced? Are you the wall ? Are you a finger? Are you a body or there is an experience of a body? Are you sensation or there is experiense caled sensation of...? Where all these experience are happening?

. If I think of the body as just the sensations and maybe space they are in, then it doesn't know thoughts. But I am not sure what defines the body.

Thoughts are simbols but not reality. Without simbols is there an owner of a body or someone living IN the body?

More like an entity that lives in the body but isn't the body. But it's funny because the one who thoughts think the feelings are coming for is just the feeling. Feelings coming for the feeling.

Wonderful YES! There is feeling and strong projection that there is someone in truoble. Go deeper, meet every wave of projection which are coming in company of sensations.
Give more then 5 exampels from your daly life.

Thank you Luchana!

Also thank you and Lubo for meeting today, lots of same type of questions!

You are most welcome :-) Such a joy is to be able to share the simplicity of this.

Much love,
Luchana

[Luchana]

Hi Lila,

here is the exercise after our meeting yestarday.

Let’s do some more investogation in thought and especially thought about “me, “I”, self

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened)

Take you time and let me know what you find.

Much love,
Luchana