awakening

[Agapanthus]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? I would expect that there will be a pointing to the idea of self, not as a discrete and separate object, but a process that has no real objective aspect.

What are you looking for at LU? A more intuited sense of what cognitively seems obvious. I have read a lot and worked with some, and still feel as if there is an operating from a body center. I do believe that that sense is becoming weaker and weaker...would love for it to establish permanently.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I'm open to not having any real expectations. As I said, I have worked with others...maybe it will be like that, maybe not. I do not believe necessarily, that another can lead one to see through whatever this is, but I'm willing to try.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? Meditation, a lot of reading, mindfulness....

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[warissem]

Hi

I am here to accompany you to see through the illusion of a separate self.

There is a need to accept some rules of the forum :

Come here once a day to give answers to the questions : if you cannot do it, let me know
Be honest when giving the answers : that is to be sure that the answer has been seen not read in books or heard in audios or videos
Read the disclaimer text here : viewtopic.php?f=16&t=221
Learn how to use the quote function here : viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Let me know when ready

Best wishes

Warissem

[Agapanthus]

Hi there! I am ready to begin!

-Matt (Agapanthus)

[warissem]

Hi Matt

There is a need to be clear about direct experience. All your answers must come after you have seen their truth in direct experience : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching (sensations).

Example : what is the weather today ? Whether you open the window and look outside then give the answer through what is seen (this is direct experience) OR read about it in your iphone.

That being said, what is the difference between Superman and you ?

Warissem

[Agapanthus]

The first thought that came up was that Superman is a character story that is created (or channeled or something) through an author or storyteller. The idea of me from "another" perspective would be the same as Superman, really, but from the sense of being "inside," I feel like I am the experiencer of events or appearance. I could also experience a story of me as a past and future, but those things feel as if they don't have the same reality as direct sensory experience, but are more a construct.

[warissem]

Good morning

The first thought that came up was that Superman is a character story that is created (or channeled or something) through an author or storyteller. The idea of me from "another" perspective would be the same as Superman, really,

Yes.

but from the sense of being "inside," I feel like I am the experiencer of events or appearance.

Would you be clearer on this : what is being inside ? Inside what ? Can you describe it ?
Describe for me this "experiencer" ?

Give the answers with 100 % certainty (not using "I feel like" or "it seems") after having SEEN the answer in direct experience. It is the most important clue of this dialog.

I could also experience a story of me as a past and future, but those things feel as if they don't have the same reality as direct sensory experience, but are more a construct.

Yes all stories are thoughts construct. Do you see that the "me" is a story even right now, in direct experience ? Elaborate on your answer.

Thanks

Warissem

[Agapanthus]

Hi Warissem!

By "being inside" I'm referencing the sense of being "behind the eyes." It is as if vision is messing things up, somehow. It occurs to me that without eyes, the experience of being would probably be dramatically different. Like, the eyes are what enables the manufacturing of a large part of the world as experienced, then there there are relational stories made about the appearances presented by the vision system. There is seeing of a body and correlations that seem to be volitional and then there are "things seen" which are "not body." Describe the experiencer? I'm not sure...seems to have something to do with the body and what seems like an internal mindspace in which there are appearances that seem to be bounded and not visible to others in the world. I just realized I used "seems," but I am so unsure about this. I know that what I am writing down here is not it, so...each word seems problematic, somehow.

I do see the "me" is a story...if I lost memory, it would be different, that is clear. There would just be experience. Of what, I don't know. I think if memory was gone, there would be a reassembling of a me related to the body just because it seems separate from "everything else" that appears as an object in vision. I think I am conflating body with "me?"

[warissem]

Hi

Having read your post, I notice that you are not clear about Direct experience and thought story or imagination. This is an exercise for you :

Go for a walk in a park or wherever in nature, observe what is going on like a camera, without going to thoughts : come back here and report what is seen, what is heard, what is smelt, what is tasted, what are the sensations.

Good luck

Warissem

[Agapanthus]

Hello there- There was an experience of what I would call direct visual perception,When eyes not moving, there is a singular spot that is "in focus" with the rest blurred. I saw all sorts of color-shapes that didn't really resolve "into something" unless a thought appeared. Second strongest perception was hearing. There were various sounds that didn't resolve into a sound "of something" till there was thinking that felt like a questioning (what was that sound) or an autiomatic identifying thought... I could hear sounds which then would have a secondary perception of thought like,"oh...bird, or,"listen to the gurgling of the river." The third most notable perception was the thoughts....sometimes labels, sometimes completely unrelated, and sometimes so "effervescent" and "quick," that I could not get a sense of tracking them. I did not feel a sense of volitionally "going to thoughts" and when I did go to thoughts, there was the remembering thought that oops--I'm supposed to NOT do this." I felt like although there was a clear distinction around idea of the difference between directly perceiving sense info and thought info, the two things were pretty well enmeshed together...both appearing without "me" calling for them. It seemed automatic...

[warissem]

Good evening

I think you are OK with the difference between direct experience and thoughts story. Now there is an exercise for you.

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Warissem

[Agapanthus]

Where are they coming from and going to?

****I cannot tell where they come from. Most seem to spontaneously arise and then there is sometimes a "catchy" one that seems to draw attention and a sense of free association. Some just appear and then are reabsorbed, but others (sometimes songs) have longevity.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

****I do not do anything to make a particular thought appear unless there is the preceding thought that "I want to have ____thought appear."


Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

---no


Can you predict your next thought?

---no

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

---there seems to be an element of volitional attentiveness that allows for a thought or sense object to be held. I notice this when I have to think about a problem that I am not interested in...i seem to "make" myself hold the thought-assemblage to solve a problem.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

---not really, but sometimes there seems to be a way of "distracting myself"


Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

----only from what occurs as available to choose from, and even that seems to be conditioned...not a free choosing.


Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

-----no...in fact, the effort to negate or choose not to have a particular thought activates that thought as part of the negation. I suppose that one could, again, distract oneself in a way that might make it more likely that the thought will not appear.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

----I get what you are saying. Even the sense of choosing is just a thought after a sequence that asserts "I chose that."
Thoughts come randomly or as associated with other thoughts or as a regular set of thoughts that "go together" as far as I can see.

[warissem]

Good morning

Direct experience is : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching (sensations).

Describe what is going on right here right now : what are you seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and feeling (sensations). Let it be simple. Example : there is seeing of these words on the screen.

Warissem

[Agapanthus]

I might have trouble in not seeing thinking as a perception or of thoughts as another (thing) perceived.

Following what you are asking, there is feeling of fingertips tapping the keyboard and the associated sound, there is the sight of the keyboard with hands and the shadow from hand on keyboard. There is sunlight on back of hands, and sounds of the tinkling of wife stirring her tea, dog just made a snorting sound, feeling of eyes blinking, feet on carpet, bug bite behind my ear calling to be scratched...now aware of breathing at nostril with slight constriction. Swallowed. Still tasting the tuna casserole that I ate a while ago. There is seeing what is being typed alternating with looking at keyboard....

[warissem]

Good evening

There are thoughts , but they don't help to see truth. What Comes up when you read 'there IS no you, no self '

Warissem

[Agapanthus]

What comes up is this sense that I believe those words to point to truth, but there is a deep intuition around a body-centered sense of self. Like...the body IS almost equivalent to the "self." I think that is "the problem" lol!