Not certain

[Fiann]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Self is an illusion projected by thoughts onto, feelings, the body, and other thoughts.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'd like to confirm whether I am through the gate. I've been doing some work with a friend who is a guide here and he is satisfied that I have seen through the self. However I am not certain.

I am 100% certain that there is no lasting, substantial self, even though there can be a seeming of one. Consciousness, sense input, etc all emerge in each moment on their own. My main doubt is that my understanding is purely intellectual but that a large share of my psyche is still bought in, if unconsciously.

if there could be any confirmation, disconfirimation, or deepening of my experience, I'll be glad to know.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To check in with a guide regularly, answering questions about my direct experience, intellectual understandings, feelings. To have an opportunity to ask clarifying questions to a new person who has experience with guiding others.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been something of a seeker most of my life, but I have had a daily meditation habit the last 4 years. Mostly I practice mindfulness of breathing or open-awareness and am currently sitting 1-1.5 hours per day. I am regularly checking in throughout the day with direct experience and dropping in questions ("what is aware of this?", "how do I know this?", "what's happening?", etc.).

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9

[Anastacia42]

Good morning

You DO have a thread! I finally had to search for it. I expected a reply to my PM. Well, I've found it now. Let's begin.

This is my usual first post. Please read it. Since you're reporting seeing already, we will move a bit faster.

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.
Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Loving,

[Fiann]

Hi Stacy, glad you found the thread - sorry I didn't think to point you over here!

I've read and understood the disclaimer and FAQ's.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Please call me Fiann. Is it ok to continue calling you Stacy? I am in GMT.

How will life change?

I will have a new understanding of seeing, whether that means that I have or haven't already. Otherwise life will probably continue as normal, just doing its thing!

How will you change?

Perhaps I will have less doubt about what going through the gate is, and how it is experienced.

What will be different?

There will be less preoccupation with what qualifies as "seeing' through self. There might be more an experience of "seeing" rather than just a confident knowledge.

What is missing?

Clarity.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Fiann,

Yes, "Stacy."

Okay, so, what comes up when is read that there is no self, never has been and never will be? That it is just a made-up story?

Much love,

[Fiann]

Okay, so, what comes up when is read that there is no self, never has been and never will be? That it is just a made-up story?

It brings my attention to the independently active, but separate parts of my experience: thoughts, body, emotions. The only trace of a self is in a network of thoughts which don't represent anything beyond themselves. Thinking of it as a story is a good way to put it.

[Anastacia42]

Thank you. That question checks for fears. Fears & expectations are the only things that can prevent SEEING.


Do you want to go through some pointers? Or would you like to answer "final questions," which can show us where you are?

Up to "you."

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

One more bit. This is what is usually next in the way I guide.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Loving,

[Fiann]

Hey Stacy, that's all clear. Big difference between the socks made of thoughts and the socks I can actually see!

[Anastacia42]

Good, yes.

I asked, Do you want to go through some pointers? Or would you like to answer "final questions," which can show us where you are?

Take a look at these. Even if you're not ready for them, they will help me to know where to start.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

If those are too much, we can start with other pointers, instead.

Much love,

[Fiann]

Ah - I had missed your post above.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Nope - only ever the appearance given from believing thoughts that they relate to something beyond themselves. Self has no shape or form and is not findable anywhere.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It's a story or a network of thought which is unquestioningly believed, or else justified by further thought or stories - a useful story that helps to navigate the world like many other things we talk about in day-to-day, but still insubstantial.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Talking from the point of view of the dialogue in which my friend said I was talking like I'd got it: the feeling wasn't so different really. There was a heightened sense of the obviousness that self is a story, but life mostly stayed the same. No "fireworks" (though I understand this doesn't happen for everyone), no sense of release or relief.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It was more like a giving up looking. I asked about the relationship between open awareness and seeing through self and realised that nothing relating to a self or a no-self could be found anywhere that things are found (ie: in awareness). I had been looking for a self or a no-self, but suddenly knew that the whole search was futile since there's nothing in direct experience that relates to a no-self. It's like looking for a thing, going through every corner of a room to find it and then, not seeing it, you realise that it's not there. But you don't find a not it either.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Decisions arise like other thoughts - out of nowhere really, just based on causes and conditions - with a motive energy for making the organism do something. When I'm reading before bed, something just happens that means I believe that it's time to stop reading and go to sleep. Equally, when I'm thinking of where to go on holidays, there will be thoughts about different locations until the comparing stops and there's just one location and the decision is made. This might be accompanied by a thought that says "I've made a decision".

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Much like decision: arises experienced as emotion (sensation and thoughts that cohere as another story) that points the organism towards some decision, goal, etc. I have the intention to do some writing each week because the causes and conditions are there and the intention is supported by them; if the causes or conditions change (feelings of enjoyment diminish or thoughts of futility arise) the appearance of intention dissolves.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Can't describe something that doesn't exist except to resort to thoughts and stories! I think I see reflections of free will when a thought arises like "If I left 5 minutes earlier this wouldn't have happened" - but I don't ultimately believe things could have happened another way.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Choice is the same as intention and decision. When faced with a choice thoughts and feelings arise and an observable output is produced in the world of direct experience (like a hand reaches into the fridge for one snack and not another) - but no one is there weighing up the choice and making that choice.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

The illusion of control helps "me" make decisions that lead to my happiness, survival, and the welfare of others. If I couldn't produce feelings of importance or control, the causes and conditions would not arise for decisions to happen. I'd be more like a rock than a living mammal being. If I'm working to a deadline and have the thought that I can control how much work I do each day in expectation of it, then I'll be more likely to care. But in reality, the belief in control is not in anyone's control - nobody is there to do the controlling.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

It's a mystery! Why does cause lead to effect? Or put another way: nothing makes things happen, but cause does produce effect, and things do happen. In direct experience actually nothing happens: there's only ever a thin moment which is spun into a greater narrative by memory and thought - how cool!

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Really, there's no me to be responsible. In common parlance however, "I" am still responsible for my actions and must experience the consequences of them - another useful story that helps protect people from criminals for example. But there is no agent choosing to have the feelings or thoughts I do to produce decisions that lead to me doing something I regret.

6) Anything to add?

I've enjoyed answering these questions. They bring the whole topic into fuller view. But it still feels like it lives in thought: thought that there is no me. I wonder if there's anything I could do to make this clearer on the level of sensation, or even to reduce the number of selfing thoughts I get.

I wonder what you think Stacy?

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

because the causes and conditions are there and the intention is supported by them;

The illusion of control helps "me" make decisions that lead to my happiness, survival, and the welfare of others. If I couldn't produce feelings of importance or control, the causes and conditions would not arise for decisions to happen

How, exactly, does an illusion help a non-existent "me" or is that merely another story arising in thought's content?

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Okay, can you find "cause & effect" in Direct Experience?

Here's a way to check:

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your Direct Experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Loving,

[Fiann]

Hi Stacy,

How, exactly, does an illusion help a non-existent "me" or is that merely another story arising in thought's content?

This a story about stories.

Okay, can you find "cause & effect" in Direct Experience?

Nope. In Direct Experience, nothing "happens" there is just the raw experience of a moment.


The palm flipping exercise is a good one!

How is the movement controlled?

There isn't any control. As far as I can tell the hand just moves.

Does a thought control it?

While thoughts accompany the movement, they do not cause it.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No, only sense impressions and thoughts.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

There is thought about turning the hand, but the thought does now cause the hand to turn over. Any sense of a thought making the hand turn over only arises after the hand has started to turn on its own. And that sense is itself a thought.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

There is not choice. One hand went up and started to turn. The story would be that seeing your message led to a thought that raised a hand chosen because of past actions and conditions - but none of that is in direct experience, just thoughts about thoughts.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No, there is nothing separate in the whole of experience.

[Anastacia42]

Great. All true.

Do you see how that is not what you wrote to answer the question about decisions in the final questions?

Can you please answer that again?

Also look again at "control" and answer that again from what you have discovered with the Palm Flipping exercise. If those are clear, I will submit your replies to other guides, who may have questions or not.

Much love,

[Fiann]

Stacy,

Do you see how that is not what you wrote to answer the question about decisions in the final questions?

I think I see what you mean, but I will just check: causes and conditions, which I said produce decision, do not exist in direct experience. These are only more stories. When I think about it, "causes and conditions" are a way for me to tell a story about "how things are" (for no reason in particular, that's just how they are). If there's something else important you feel I'm missing, can you let me know?

Can you please answer that again?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Decision is a story about what causes things to be the way they are, one which leans on and supports belief in a self. Believing in the reality of decision is to believe thought is more than it is, and something is making the hand turn.

Also look again at "control" and answer that again from what you have discovered with the Palm Flipping exercise. If those are clear, I will submit your replies to other guides, who may have questions or not.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

Control makes me think again of a separate agent who, instead of causing something is somehow monitoring it, and ready to adjust it as it happens. But there is nothing outside direct experience that can adjust it; experience exists just as it is. There is a story about how I am controling my hands typing these lines, but in experience there are just fingers moving and sounds of keys as the letters appear on the screen.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Fiann,

I posted this thread for other guides to confirm or ask questions. 21 people have seen it in our Facebook group, but no one has commented and it has been nearly a whole 24 hours. Apologizing for the delay. I'll let you know as soon as anyone says anything there.

Thank you for your patience!