Finding Me

[besposito]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I am not the body-mind. I am the self. But the self is unknowable, empty.

What are you looking for at LU?
I would like my questions answered and my seeking resolved. I am looking for a guide, a guru - the one who will appear at just the right time. I want to relieve fears and anxieties. I want to realize my true self.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would like to engage in a mix of back and forth dialogue - questions and answers, as well as straightforward guidance from the guide, and someone who can hold me accountable (if there is a recommended practice).

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have read I Am That (Nisargadatta), some John Wheeler, and some Maharshi, as well as classic spiritual texts like the Gitas. I currently read the nonduality reddit page frequently, and listen to podcasts or youtube seminars. I have engaged in self-enquiry, but not ceaselessly. Also, I have partaken in psychedelics in the past.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Vivien]

Hi,

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I can assist you with your inquiry.

I would like to engage in a mix of back and forth dialogue - questions and answers, as well as straightforward guidance from the guide, and someone who can hold me accountable (if there is a recommended practice).

Well, we can agree on that. My 'job' will be to give you pointers in the form of questions, and yours is to look at that direction and see what is actually there in your own experience, instead of relying on your thoughts, interpretations and learned concepts or stories you've heard from others.

am looking for a guide, a guru - the one who will appear at just the right time.

Well, I can be your guide, but not your guru. I won't tell you how things are (like a guru), rather I ask question to guide you to SEE it for yourself, instead of relying on my words and just believe me.

Does this sound good? Are you up for this?

If yes, let me say this: this inquiry is going to be your own inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realization, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards investigating that what it is that you mistake for a self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
Also, post daily, or at least every other day. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Love,
Vivien

[besposito]

Hello Vivien, I am very glad to see your response, and I apologize for not replying sooner. I did not receive an email notifying me of your response. I will look into this so it doesn't happen again.

Well, I can be your guide, but not your guru. I won't tell you how things are (like a guru), rather I ask question to guide you to SEE it for yourself, instead of relying on my words and just believe me.

Does this sound good? Are you up for this?

Yes, this sounds good. Yes, I am up for this.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
Also, post daily, or at least every other day. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Yes, I agree with these and am looking forward to starting.

[Vivien]

Hi,

What name would you like me to call you?

I did not receive an email notifying me of your response. I will look into this so it doesn't happen again.

It could be in your spam folder, maybe?

Let’s start it then
.
Currently, what do you take yourself to be?

Not what you THINK you are, but what you perceive yourself to be, right now?

Where are you?

What are you?

I’m not asking your personal opinion (thoughts) about yourself, but what and where you are, literally, in experience, not in theory.

Please spend a whole day investigating these questions, again and again.



Note:
I'm going to write all my questions in blue. Every blue question will be a pointer for you where to look. Please make sure that you investigate ALL the questions thoroughly in your own experience, without trying to come up with an answer from intellectual understanding, like something you've heard or read, or learned by someone else. This is something you need to see, not just understand.

So please make sure that you deeply investigate all blue questions, and you reply to them one-by-one (unless I group them into blocks).

Try to avoid replying quickly... since that would be just the mind answering with the same old beliefs or learned knowledge. Rather with each post, spend a whole day investigating it again and again, before replying. I hope you are OK with this. This deep investigation could help immensely.

Vivien

[besposito]

What name would you like me to call you?

Bryan

Currently, what do you take yourself to be?

Not what you THINK you are, but what you perceive yourself to be, right now?

Where are you?

What are you?

This is a difficult question for me. I have to separate what I know conceptually (and at times experientially) from what I perceive myself to be right now.

In my day-to-day life, I am Bryan. I am a human, who has certain qualities, thoughts, sensations, experiences, feelings, likes and dislikes, etc. I feel as if I am in control of my intended actions (for example, I feel "in control" as I type this). In my experience, I am separate from other beings and the world around me. I have a family, and a business, and things that I feel I need to "get done." This is who I perceive myself to be right now.

However, if I do self-enquiry, I cannot find myself in anything that I perceive. The search comes up empty, other than the simple fact of "I am."

[Vivien]

Hi Bryan,

Thank you for your responses.

In my day-to-day life, I am Bryan. I am a human, who has certain qualities, thoughts, sensations, experiences, feelings, likes and dislikes, etc. I feel as if I am in control of my intended actions (for example, I feel "in control" as I type this). In my experience, I am separate from other beings and the world around me. I have a family, and a business, and things that I feel I need to "get done." This is who I perceive myself to be right now.

Please read your above comment and consider: Aren’t you talking about the body?

So in essence, you are saying that you are the body, right?

But is that so? Is the body = I?
Or… the I = the controller of the body?
Or… the I = the feeler of the body?

However, if I do self-enquiry, I cannot find myself in anything that I perceive. The search comes up empty, other than the simple fact of "I am."

Ok, good first step. So when inquiring it is seen that whatever is perceived cannot be ‘I’. And yet, in daily life, it’s still believed / lived as the body… or the controller of the body… or the feeler of the body… Or….. what?

Vivien

[besposito]

Please read your above comment and consider: Aren’t you talking about the body?

So in essence, you are saying that you are the body, right?

Yes, I feel at most times that I am, and at rare times that I am not. It's clear to me that I do not associate with many aspects of the body - breath when it's unconscious, heart beating, hair growing, digestion, etc. etc. But some things I do associate with, such as the feeling that I am "inside" this particular body. Right now I experience my body as the center of my experience, separate from the chair I'm sitting in, the keyboard I'm typing on, and the people around me.

Yet upon investigation, it's clear that that is just a thought; and my thoughts just appear from nowhere and then dissolve into nowhere. It's clear that every action I take is a reaction to a prior moment, and that moment resulted from the moment prior to that one, back to the beginning of "it all." Things are just happening, with no real control. And it's clear that I can't find an "I" in anything that I perceive.

Yet still, I feel as though I do control things. For example, right after I finish typing this response, I will work on editing a video for my job. I will arrange clips in a particular order based on what I think and perceive is best. I feel that I am in control of doing that. In this case, I do associate with being the "doer." It's a tricky thing.

And yet, in daily life, it’s still believed / lived as the body… or the controller of the body… or the feeler of the body… Or….. what?

I guess what I'm saying is that I understand intellectually/conceptually that I'm not my body. And while I do experience (and have experienced) glimpses of that at times, in my daily life I do take myself to be the body - both the controller (of action resulting from thought) and the feeler.

[Vivien]

Hi Bryan,

Yet still, I feel as though I do control things. For example, right after I finish typing this response, I will work on editing a video for my job. I will arrange clips in a particular order based on what I think and perceive is best. I feel that I am in control of doing that. In this case, I do associate with being the "doer." It's a tricky thing.

Let’s look into the notion of control, then.

Here is an exercise for you.

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Is there a controller at all?

Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
Is there a mover at all?

How is the decision made?
Is there a decision maker?

Please repeat this exercise many times throughout the day, before replying.

Vivien

[besposito]

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

There is no choosing, so there is no one doing the choosing.

What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Is there a controller at all?

Brain seems to be controlling the hand, but that's just an idea; a thought. In direct looking, there is no controller.

Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
Is there a mover at all?

How is the decision made?
Is there a decision maker?

If I *think* about the decision, it seems as if there is a decision made, by a maker (me). But if I examine my direct experience of that, even that turns out to just be a thought -- a thought that came from nowhere/nothing and dissolves into nowhere/nothing. I can't explain where the idea/decision of "raise my right hand now" came from. At the very most, the decision is driven by conditioning and prior action/thought, but nothing else.

[Vivien]

Hi Bryan,

Brain seems to be controlling the hand, but that's just an idea; a thought. In direct looking, there is no controller.

Just notice that you wrote “brain SEEMS to be controlling the hand” – but is it true? Is it true that it SEEMS that the brain controlling the hand? Or rather it’s just a learned idea, but no real impression behind it…. as the word ‘seems’ would suggest?

We often think or say the phrase (as a figure of speaking) “it feels like” or “it seems like”. These phrases usually point to a thought not to a sensation. A sensation would be when you pinch yourself and then you really bodily, physically feel something.

So the "It feels like the I is here." appears as content of a thought.

"I feel like" = "I think that…"
“It seems like” = “I think that….”

What we are investigating here that what is it exactly that we take for an I. Since intellectually we already know that there is no real I outside of the realm of thoughts, and yet it can SEEM like as if there were an I. So there must be something or several different things that we mistake for an I.

We are looking at the ‘SEEMS TO BE’ to see if that's true. We look at how the story is created and maintained and why it is so credible.

If I *think* about the decision, it seems as if there is a decision made, by a maker (me). But if I examine my direct experience of that, even that turns out to just be a thought -- a thought that came from nowhere/nothing and dissolves into nowhere/nothing

You see, the same thing happens here. It SEEMS as if…. and you even say that it SEEMS that way when you THINK about decision. Do you see that?

So what we do here is to contrast the SEEMS to be with ACTUALITY.
This is crucial.
This is the foundation of our inquiry.
Why?
Because we automatically mistake our thoughts for reality. As if a thought crossed my mind would automatically mean that it is true. Not just true, but even real. And that’s how illusions are created :)

Look around, what are you choosing right now?

Are the colours seen your choice or are they here?

How about sounds?

Have you chosen any sensations?

Now please go to the fridge, and pick a piece of food. Smell it.
Can you choose the smell that appears?

Now, please have a bite.
Can you choose what taste happens when you eat it?

Really connect this to your experience. This might sounds a very simple exercise, but regardless, please repeat this several times throughout the day. We need CONVICTION that we don't do any of these... if there is any doubt whatsoever, our work is not done.

Vivien

[besposito]

Just notice that you wrote “brain SEEMS to be controlling the hand” – but is it true? Is it true that it SEEMS that the brain controlling the hand? Or rather it’s just a learned idea, but no real impression behind it…. as the word ‘seems’ would suggest?

I have been taught that the brain controls the hand. I can see now that this is a learned idea. In direct experience, there is no brain. There is only the sensation of hand moving. Simultaneously there can be a thought of moving the hand, but not always.

You see, the same thing happens here. It SEEMS as if…. and you even say that it SEEMS that way when you THINK about decision. Do you see that?

Yes, I see this.

Look around, what are you choosing right now?

Are the colours seen your choice or are they here?

How about sounds?

Have you chosen any sensations?

I have chosen none of these. All perceptions and sensations are simply here. Even things in the past that I think I have chosen, I can now see they were the inevitable result of prior events and conditioning (which I also could not manipulate).

Now please go to the fridge, and pick a piece of food. Smell it.
Can you choose the smell that appears?

Now, please have a bite.
Can you choose what taste happens when you eat it?

I can see that there is no choice, nor control, outside of the thought of there being one. In direct experience, everything just "is." There is no control over an object's smell nor taste. Going into thoughts, I "know" that the object I call apple most likely smells and tastes like I expect an apple to smell and taste. But I can see that any expectation is just a thought based on past conditioning. My expectation could be right, or it could be wrong. I have no control over that. But -- without expectation, the apple smells and tastes as it will. Even if I don't want it to smell "bad," I have no control over whether it does or doesn't.

I can extrapolate this to "complex" ideas of control. If I go back to my video editing example, I can see see that any control that I thought I once had was an illusion. For example, I can arrange clips in a particular order that I think is good. This is just like choosing an apple from my fridge because I think it will smell sweet. These decisions that seem to be happening are actually inevitable due to prior events and conditioning. The order in which the clips end up is the same that they will regardless of any idea of control that I have; regardless of a thought of "I'm doing this." Similarly, the smell of the apple is what it is, regardless of my expectations.

I need to continue connecting this to my experience, but I can see that the false idea of control should be dropped.

[Vivien]

Hi Bryan,

I have been taught that the brain controls the hand. I can see now that this is a learned idea.

Learning is always of the past.
Seeing is always NOW. Without dragging the past into the present… in the form of thoughts. Can you see that?

I can extrapolate this to "complex" ideas of control. If I go back to my video editing example, I can see see that any control that I thought I once had was an illusion. For example, I can arrange clips in a particular order that I think is good. This is just like choosing an apple from my fridge because I think it will smell sweet. These decisions that seem to be happening are actually inevitable due to prior events and conditioning. The order in which the clips end up is the same that they will regardless of any idea of control that I have; regardless of a thought of "I'm doing this."

Yes, logically this is true. but just notice that you’ve ‘dragged the past’ into this, and just applied to this past memory a generalized conclusion from what you’ve seen from the exercise.

Any generalization, is the ‘dragging of the past’, even if in the past there was an actual looking and seeing.

Seeing always involves the present. It always happens, here-now.
It’s never a generalization, never relying on any memory.

Either I see it right NOW, or not.
Either I see it right now, or I just BELIEVE it now.
Do you see the difference?

I need to continue connecting this to my experience, but I can see that the false idea of control should be dropped.

Well, I wouldn’t say that the idea of control should be dropped… since that would require more control, more doing. It’s the same belief in doership.

(Just notice the tendency to say, 'oh... I didn't mean that way' - the tendency to correct my wording in order to unconsciously avoid seeing that I actually believe in that.)

Ideas cannot be dropped… but, when they are investigated and SEEN that they are not true, they simply fall away by themselves. It’s not something you do….. since who would do it?

Look right now…. where is the one that could or should drop the idea of control?
What is here right now that has a power to do that?

What is thinking that thought?

Where is the thinker?

Vivien

[besposito]

Learning is always of the past.
Seeing is always NOW. Without dragging the past into the present… in the form of thoughts. Can you see that?

I see this.

Either I see it right NOW, or not.
Either I see it right now, or I just BELIEVE it now.
Do you see the difference?

Yes, I see the difference.

Ideas cannot be dropped… but, when they are investigated and SEEN that they are not true, they simply fall away by themselves. It’s not something you do….. since who would do it?

It's a very tricky thing, the mind! I see that the thought of dropping an idea sustains the illusion of control.

Look right now…. where is the one that could or should drop the idea of control?
What is here right now that has a power to do that?

What is thinking that thought?

Where is the thinker?

When I inquire, there is no one. "I" cannot be found in anything perceived. However, the perception/feeling of "I am" persists. Essentially, the "I" does not appear to the "I" that I'm using to try to locate the "I." It seems that my inquiry hits a wall here.

[Vivien]

Hi Bryan,

When I inquire, there is no one. "I" cannot be found in anything perceived. However, the perception/feeling of "I am" persists. Essentially, the "I" does not appear to the "I" that I'm using to try to locate the "I." It seems that my inquiry hits a wall here.

Go to the FEELING of the I, and feel it.

Where is it? Where is it felt?

What is it EXACTLY that felt there?

spend as much time as you can throughout the day feeling this sense of I, and investigating what it is exactly that is felt there.... if you cannot call it as an 'I'.... then what would you call it?

Vivien

[besposito]

Where is it? Where is it felt?

In the chest… usually

What is it EXACTLY that is felt there?

I can’t say exactly. It’s vague. Maybe like… a cozy (familiar?) feeling, an enhanced alertness of my body and mind.

if you cannot call it as an 'I'.... then what would you call it?

It does feel like “I.” So… I am fine calling it “I.” However, feeling a sense of I is a perception, yes? So then it cannot be the “I” that I am looking for