Requesting guide JonathanR

[Matty318]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That there is no separate self that is the doer of life. That life happens and there is no me at the center of it. In fact that the self is just a thought that is transient.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking to further cement the seeing of no self and to see what the next stage of realisation will bring. Also I am looking for a community where discussions on the topic of liberation and no self are had.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect that there will continue to be movement within this elongated investigation and I feel a draw to that movement. I feel that continued integration with the forum and its participants will be of help to assist the continued clear seeing of this liberating truth.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have had successful video guiding sessions with John which culminated in fairly clear seeing of the self being no more than a thought that appears and disappears in a random fashion.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[JonathanR]

Hi Matt!

Great that you're here. Nice to be talking again. Hope you had a great Xmas break? Or at least a restful time?

. I expect that there will continue to be movement within this elongated investigation and I feel a draw to that movement. I feel that continued integration with the forum and its participants will be of help to assist the continued clear seeing of this liberating truth.

Yes, a good idea Matt.

Well, to proceed,. I will send you six final questions that we always give towards the end of the conversation, if you feel you're ready to answer these?

All the best

🙏

Jon

[Matty317]

Hi Jon. Yes please send them over when you are able. I.look forward to answering them in writing.

Thanks 😊

[JonathanR]

Hi Matt,

Great.

In answering please take your time and express things as fully as seems necessary. It helps a lot to give examples, particularly where requested in question 5.

Here they are:


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Give in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Looking forward to your answers.

All the best

Jon

[Matty317]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

The sepererate entity only appears as a story which is based in thought. It is a mental catch that has been an assumed identity for as long as memory serves. It is not real as in it cannot be found when searched for in actual experience. It has always been this way and that is clearly its form. An assumption. A story. This is the case and has always been the case but this clarity of seeing is only recently been achieved. With this insight the truth is layed bare that this assumption of a separate self is sad always has been illusory. Though as a caveat to the above description the illusory assumption is strong and heavy the chains that hold it in place are stubborn and may always be inmplace. The key for the lock is now available but the continual unlocking is neccesary at least for now it is.

[Matty317]

2) Give in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

The illusion of a separate self is as titled an illusion. It is a heavy and consistent assumption that there is an entity that is at the center of a body that is separate from everything else. It is the assumption of an entity that is vulnerable to the goings on around it and the ideas and emotions that appear as thoughts and sometimes thought associated sensations within it. It is at the very foundation of the story of mind chatter and commentary. It is the building block fir multiple streams of additional stories that always include decisions and actions and it is the judge jury and executioner for all of these.
Since the key has been found to start to mismantle this network of beliefs life is more grounded. More simple. The clouds have parted and a root system is being initiated that cuts through what is now more easily recognised as illusion and story. No fireworks but a subtle shift.

[Matty317]

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

Tbh there aren't any major feelings around this seeing. More of a "this is now how life is" if I was pressed for a feeling I would say it feels that there has been a subtle shift that is very ordinary but has an added feeling of simplicity. Thoughts and emotions that previously were the center of daily life are now recognised more easily as what they truly are. On a daily level this recognition is seen with more and incidentally increasing clarity. Today and yesterday there has been a work issue which has been dealt with in a similar way than before in terms of outcomes but this time there was a calm and consistent underlying knowing of "what will be will be" and that this is a happening that will play out and regardless of outcome nothing will change within the reality of what is true.

[Matty317]

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

The aha moment for me was the remembering of a quote you said that came to me whilst I was swimming. You said "you know that the idea of me is just a thought don't you"
Upon reviewing this statement it is well in line with a lot of other ideas and direction within this investigation and certainly nothing I haven't heard before but fir some reason a light bulb moment happened. The cogs clicked into place at that moment and all the information that was floating around wrt this investigation aligned. That was the key.

[Matty317]

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

Decision are 2 pronged.
One 1 side decisions are made instantaneously before the mind stories are even given a chance to ignite. Like cat runs in the road and we swerve to avoid. No thought involved here. All happens too quickly. The body reacts based on circumstance.
2nd type of decision is when the mind stories are allowed to play out and it seems that a logical decision is made weighing up the pros and cons. Each seems to be balanced against the other and a decision seems to be made based on that result. Upon intrinsic investigation into this process what is uncovered are multiple layers of thought and stories and assumptions based on these. A complicated network of streams that does a fantastic job in clouding whatbiscreally going on. The mind has been practicing this for many years and is similar to a great piece of art. A huge mosaic.
Intention
Again the result of the wonderful network of streams that the mind creates. The factors of positive and negative are considered , a decision seems to be made and as a bolt on addition to the above the next layer of the story is an intention. It is a stead fast course of action that the mind dictates will happen based on thorough research and decision. Usually with a multiplicity of other factors and beliefs thrown in for good measure.
Free will
I remember in our video chat when yiu asked me this question I laughed because it was ludicrous given what is now seen how this concept can be taken seriously. I no longer find this concept amusing now my seeing of this has moved on. The best answer I can give now is that free will is a holy grail, the pot of gold at the end of a rainbow to those that believe they are a separate self and mind stories are real. It is clearly an illusory concept but truly valuable to most. History is full of shocking life and death tales regarding this. Quite horrific really.
We are all totally and implicitly free. The multitude of stories some light and amusing some dark and torturous make humankind think differently.
Choice
Same as decision. 2 prongs to this. 1.Instant before thought happenings. 2. The culmination of a Web of stories thoughts beliefs. Both are the true underlying conditioning and natural selection which is a hidden but automatic process.
Control
This is another level within the mass of complicated streams that the story creating mind is made up of.
I just wrote a load of text referring to stable and unstable mental states and the need to change etc but I then deleted it all as it occurred to me that in fact what is control pointing to? It is pointing to an illusory set of behaviours that some may label as control and others not based on different assumptions and labels to what the label of control is deemed as.
So my answer to this is control is some peoples diagnosis and labelling to what is happening. It is communication whether internal or external and a label that some may attach to a certain story.
I may be off track with this answer please confirm if so.
What makes things happen and how does it work.
Life happens of it own volition. There is no entity that can control life's happening. There is only what is happening. What instructs that direction I don't know but it is clearly not the mind stories.
I cannot give any more information to how things happen or work other than to say , they just do. And that is fine but I don't know.
What am I responsible for?
Responsibility is a label that supports the framework of a particular story. For my life my stories fit within this label in a clear fashion. I am responsible to pay bills house my family, feed the dog. My daughters are responsible to feed the rats and clean them out (they struggle with this lol) As general language it is a great and clear concept. Though of course within this particular label like control there can be many different views on what is acceptable etc.I like it as it creates order in my web of mind. Though ultimately It is a concept/story that can be used to quiet or eliminate other stories or should dos or shouldn't dos. This is in the world of living in a correct fashion which again is a story that the human lives under/within. All these stories are used to move through life but what I now see thanks to this investigation is the underlying reality to all these stories and concepts. They all play a part but the beauty in this is seeing that at the center of them there is no entity that is vulnerable.

[Matty317]

6) Anything to add?

Sorry for the multiple posts but there was so much to address i thought it would be easier to do it this way.
Nothing to add I think all has been covered in my answers. Thanks for your time and patience with me on this. You have been great. Thanks Jon Matt

[JonathanR]

Hi Matt

Thanks for your answers. Let's start with the first one:

. the illusory assumption is strong and heavy the chains that hold it in place are stubborn and may always be inmplace. The key for the lock is now available but the continual unlocking is neccesary at least for now it is.

Can this "unlocking" be prevented from happening?

Does an entity have to maintain effort in order to do unlocking?


Let's go on to other answers after this?

All the best

Jon

[Matty318]

Can this "unlocking" be prevented from happening?

Does an entity have to maintain effort in order to do unlocking?

No. It is an automatic go to . It appears when it appears which is when it is noticed that the "i" assumption has been reverted to and suffering arises.

No entity is present to maintain anything. Just a well trodden path , a neural carriageway.
Though the carriageway is deep and the vehicle heavy there is an automatic reminder that truth does not travel on this road.

[JonathanR]

. Though the carriageway is deep and the vehicle heavy there is an automatic reminder that truth does not travel on this road.

How real are the carriageway and heavy vehicle Matt? Are they in any sense "there"? If so, in what sense?

Jon

[Matty317]

Hi Jon.

No there is no real sense of these being there. Its just another one of my silly apologies that isn't quite correct... lol.... it was just referring to the clarity of seeing not generally being there but showing up when a thought of "suffering" appears. It is inline with my general feeling of no fireworks, all is as before except for this sporadic clarity.

[JonathanR]

Hi Matt

Thanks.

. The key for the lock is now available but the continual unlocking is neccesary at least for now it is.

Who / what "unlocks"?

What is it , exactly, that is "unlocked"?

How does this unlocking happen?

:)

Jon