gateless22

[zmj1]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? There is no self, there is only a voice in the head that speaks in the first person, nonstop. I am not that voice.

What are you looking for at LU? I see very clearly that there is no self, every day I have experiences where I disidentify from my mind and see it very clearly. Then the illusion comes again, although its more quiet and there is a deep sense of peace and wellness that pervades my everyday life.

I've seen the no self, and disidentified from the mind, and this is becoming more and more clear every day. Its wonderful!!!

I'd like help deepening and solidifying that, for good.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I would like help to further see through the illusion of self, and catalyze the extinguishing of the illusion. Like I said, I've seen it very clearly and there are clear instances where I disidentify from the mind completely, but the illusion still comes. So I basically would like help furthering my clarity.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? Ive meditated a bit, I mainly have listened to Ekhart Tolle for the past few months, and I also learn from Gurumayi Chidvilasananda. In the past, I learned from Thich Nat Hanh, Alan Watts, Ramana Maharshi, Adyashanti and Mooji. After Listening to a lot of Alan Watts and Adyashanti a few years ago, I felt on fire with seeking, and that lead me to you all. After reading the Gatecrashers book, I saw that "I" was just a thought, and laughed out loud! Seeking diminished, over the years life naturally developed and I gained deeper and deeper insights. I received Shaktipat and that has contributed to my development greatly. Recently I have had a very intense spiritual awakening and disidentification from the mind that dwarfs my initial experience reading your book, and I was drawn back to you and have been really appreciating your teachings again! I'd love to have someone to talk to and a guide would be very useful to me.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[warissem]

Hi

I am glad to accompany you on the way to see through the illusion of a separate self.

There are some rules to be with during our dialog :

Honesty :give answers when you are 100 % sure of their truth, it means the answer is SEEN in direct experience not given on the basis of accumulated knowledge.
Come here once a day : let me know when you cannot do it
Let aside all readings about advaita, spirituality, ...

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When you agree, we 'll start.

Warissem

[zmj1]

Great Warissem,
Let's begin!

[warissem]

Hi

What do you expect to happen after having seen that there is no you, no separate self ?
What will be the changes in the every day life ?

Warissem

[zmj1]

I should preface this by saying that I already have seen no self. It came from reading Gateless Gatecrashers and from many other experiences. I am trying to deepen rootedness in no self, as well train to be a guide.

That said, I have never gone through the entire guide process nor answered the 6 questions, so I'm happy to do the process!
I'd say my intention, not really expectation, is to become more rooted in no self awareness.

[warissem]

Good morning

Fine. I invite to do the exercises I will give you and answer to the questions after having looked at direct experience : seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching (sensations). Concepts are used for communication.

I recommend for you this exercise :
Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Kind regards

Warissem

[zmj1]

Thank you Warissen for your guiding, I really appreciate it. This process is wonderful.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Nowhere! They come and go from nothing.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No. A random thought just comes, then an "I" thought takes credit a split second later. "I am thinking this"

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No, they happen completely at random. They pop up like popcorn, different shapes and colors, with no apparent order or coherency. Cow! Lake? Beach! Beech Tree! Ice cream. Cow?

Can you predict your next thought?

No, they just pop in to existence.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No selecting. When I try to focus on only positive thoughts, the same amount of negative thoughts still come in.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No, they come in at random.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No, they come by themselves.Trying to choose is useless.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No, resisting thoughts does not work.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Wow, this is really fascinating. There is no coherency or linear narrative AT ALL! In the past, its seemed like each thought referenced the last, like there was order. But now I see its random popcorn, unrelated ideas colliding and displacing each other in a nonsensical mental static. What a world to be caught up in! It's as if you took a friend out to lunch and every sentence that came out of their mouth was completely unrelated to the previous one. A lot of thoughts don't even make any sense, they are just combinations of random ideas and images. "A blue monkey on a beach". I was surprised at how completely random and sporadic they were. In the passed I perceived them as being much more coherent then they actually are, for some reason. Its like selective awareness. You only remember the coherent 1% and you forget about the utter chaos and nonsensical popcorn that took up 99% of your attention.

[warissem]

Good morning

Great observations. Now, we will go further in the investigation :

Are you a thinker of thoughts ? Were you even ? Will you ever be a thinker ?

What about "having attention" : how does this work ?

Thank you

Warissem

[zmj1]

Thanks Warissem, great questions.

Are you a thinker of thoughts ? Were you even ? Will you ever be a thinker ?

No, thoughts happen to you.

What about "having attention" : how does this work ?

"Attention is just an empty concept. And if there was a "thing" called attention, it would imply a subject. Who would be having the attention? No one.

[warissem]

Hi

No, thoughts happen to you.

Is there a you in any shape or form, was it ever ?

Here is an investigation for you :

Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Kind regards

Warissem

[zmj1]

Thanks Warissem

With the body, I closed my eyes and felt an expansive sensation, more like mist than a solid form. No Boundaries. Then I looked at my body and it seemed to be a completely different thing, I didn't feel the 2 were connected.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

With the hand however, when I moved it back and forth, I felt a pressure as it went from one direction to another. Looking at my hand, this was correlated to the image of the hand changing the direction. So although the body sensation felt very spacious and borderless, the hand seemed sensation to be relating to the image of motion. I'd like to continue to look at this body stuff as we move on.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

I notice that the experience "body" or "body is walking" is only there as a thought story. When there's no thinking, there's just experience, sensations, light, smell, sound. When I am thinking "my body" the experience of a body becomes very real and convincing. I'll continue to watch this pattern of "body" existing outside of mind patterns today.

Side note: It reminds me of something I've been noticing on a broader level. The story of "me" only exists when thoughts pop up out of nowhere. And like we talked about, thoughts aren't consciously being created, they are popping up left and right like popcorn.

So if there are thoughts of "me" and "my life" that pop up like popcorn, its almost as if its a story being read to me, like out of a children's book. Have you seen the movie "Elf" with Will Ferrell? "...and then, I tip toed through the lollypop forest. Then.. I slowwwly walked to the candy cane mountain..."

The thought story is like a story being read to me (me = for lack of a better word. Just to show the passive consumption of this story in 1st person..) So it really is just an imaginary story. It pops up out of no where, speaks in the first person, and then vanishes. It's like the "personalized" echo of the broader egoic "me" that exists in the human psyche, and has for thousands of years...

[warissem]

Good evening

Great observations.

There is an exercise for you :

Let eyes open, address this very simply - The 'seeing' sense only for the moment.

With eyes open, a world of objects appears . . . a room . . . a computer screen etc
What you can specifically see isn't of interest here, and whatever it is, I am simply going to refer to it as 'what can be seen'.
This might be a little tricky, but give it some consideration.

1) With eyes open, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'what can be seen' as I mentioned?
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'what can be seen'?
3) Can what is witnessing 'what can be seen' be found?
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', be found that is witnessing 'what can be seen'? Or is there just simply 'what can be seen' ?
What do you find?

Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Kind regards

Warissem

[zmj1]

Perfect. Great reply, Warissem.

In look looking for the seer, I found only the vision, what could be seen. Any sense of answer would just be a thought.

Then I started to look for a “do-er” and became anxious. I think this is the next step.

[warissem]

Good morning

OK. Just do the same exercise with the other senses : hearing, smelling, tasting, touching (sensations). Take your time for each of them and come back with your commentaries.

Best wishes

Warissem

[zmj1]

Hi Warissem,

In listening, smelling, touching, seeing, I kept “looking” inward to find some kind of point of awareness, but would find nothing, and return rest on the outward “what is seen”. The content of what is seen, touched, heard, smelled, is reality; all there is. The hear-er is just a thought, imaginary. This is very comforting.