How to convert intelectual knowlage to experience

[Peter0]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the ego structure is first of all just another content of awarenes and that it has no intrinsic existence since it is just a flow of toughts prpjections subconscious identifications...

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to see throu the ilusion of the self, I intelectualy understand dzogchen and advaita teachings but what this ego mind wants is to realise that, I have an urge to search and to realise the reality of experience.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Pointers that will click and hellp me realize that there is no me that needs helping, witch is the prerequisite to dzogchen meditation, wich interrsts this ego mind greatly for whatewer reason, it s quite strange anwsering this in the context of no self haha

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Dzogchen meditation, mantra meditation, advaita buddhist tantra philosphies, psichadelics

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Canfora]

Hi Peter and welcome to the LU forum. My name is Sandra and I can be your guide if that's ok with you. Thank you for your introduction.

When you talk about wanting to realise the reality of experience what do you mean? Can you give me an example of what is experience so that I know if we are speaking about the same?

Take care,
S

[Peter0]

Hello Sandra, thank you for taking the time to guide ne with this, am looking forward to work with you.

What I mean by wanting to experience the reality of experience is, I want to experientaly confirm that there is no actual seperate self that exist and that wants to realise it s own non independent existence, in a way this conscioisnes can see this person writting this as a false idea, in other words person recognizes its situation as just a flow of energy completely dependent and non seperate from everithing else, but this knowladge feels superficial, and maybe like some disasociation...

Thank you for your reply and kind regards, Peter

[Canfora]

I just lost a post! Don't forget to ctrl+s if you are writing a long text because sometimes posts mysteriously disappear!

Thank you for your answer. I get what you're saying and I'm also looking forward to this conversation.

I'm going to try to explain what I mean by experiencing something. Let's say I want to know if it's raining. What I would do is going to one window and look outside to check if it is raining. To me that would be experiencing the answer to my question.

Is this what you mean by "experientaly confirm that there is no actual seperate self"? To use the senses to check if a separate self is real? If you're not sure or don't fully realize what I'm babling about that's ok. That's what I'm here for, to point to an experience, even when it doesn't seem like that is what we are doing.

I'm just wondering if by experience something you mean something like using your senses to notice what is going on here now.

[Canfora]

I just lost a post! Don't forget to ctrl+s if you are writing a long text because sometime posts mysteriously disappear!

Thank you for your answer. I get what you're saying and I'm also looking forward to this conversation.

I'm going to try to explain what I mean by experiencing something. Let's say I want to know if it's raining. What I would do is going to one window and look outside to check if it is raining. To me that would be experiencing the answer to my question.

Is this what you mean by "experientaly confirm that there is no actual seperate self"? To use the senses to check if a separate self is real? If you're not sure or don't fully realize what I'm babling about that's ok. That's what I'm here for, to point to an experience, even when it doesn't seem like that is what we are doing.

I'm just wondering if by experience something you mean something like using your senses to notice what is going on here now.

[Canfora]

I just lost a post! Don't forget to ctrl+s if you are writing a long text because sometime posts mysteriously disappear!

Thank you for your answer. I get what you're saying and I'm also looking forward to this conversation.

I'm going to try to explain what I mean by experiencing something. Let's say I want to know if it's raining. What I would do is going to one window and look outside to check if it is raining. To me that would be experiencing the answer to my question.

Is this what you mean by "experientaly confirm that there is no actual seperate self"? To use the senses to check if a separate self is real? If you're not sure or don't fully realize what I'm babling about that's ok. That's what I'm here for, to point to an experience, even when it doesn't seem like that is what we are doing.

I'm just wondering if by experience something you mean something like using your senses to notice what is going on here now.

[Canfora]

I just lost a post! Don't forget to ctrl+s if you are writing a long text because sometimes posts mysteriously disappear!

Thank you for your answer. I get what you're saying and I'm also looking forward to this conversation.

I'm going to try to explain what I mean by experiencing something. Let's say I want to know if it's raining. What I would do is going to one window and look outside to check if it is raining. To me that would be experiencing the answer to my question.

Is this what you mean by "experientaly confirm that there is no actual seperate self"? To use the senses to check if a separate self is real? If you're not sure or don't fully realize what I'm babling about that's ok. That's what I'm here for, to point to an experience, even when it doesn't seem like that is what we are doing.

I'm just wondering if by experience something you mean something like using your senses to notice what is going on here now.

[Peter0]

Hello, so what I ment was not exactly an experience thru senses, I don t really have a good explanation of what I anticipate experiencing or realizing "no self" feels like or how it happens in the awarenes, how that reflexion haplens... Here I asume a vedanta like realization that you are conscioisnes itself experiencing itself thru content of awarenes, as in you cant be a subjecr without the object... Hope something of what I mean is understood, or probabily all that thinking won t do much...?
Is the realization of no self even an experience?
Does the memory of that realization change the mental situation or is something in the nature of how you experience change?
Sorry for rambling but those are some of the confusions here...
Kind regards Peter

[Peter0]

So experiences of the senses are content of awarenes, so its like saying the miror will recognize itself thru the reflections in a mirror, so I m wondering how does awarenes recognizing itself happens, and omit that is very related to realizing the no self, I think it is the same... Wondering if I m just lost in a thinking maze....
Experiences of the senses are just another type of content of awarenes, and these toughts another type of content of awarenes bit there is some glue that prevents me from realy being aware of that...
Again sory for rambling but it s not so easy to be clear and concise in talking about the quality of experience itself... Kind regards Peter

[Canfora]

Hi there Peter,

so what I ment was not exactly an experience thru senses, I don t really have a good explanation of what I anticipate experiencing or realizing "no self" feels like or how it happens in the awarenes, how that reflexion haplens...

Not knowing is a good thing. You can approach this from a place of curiosity and exploration, with fresh eyes.

Here I asume a vedanta like realization that you are conscioisnes itself experiencing itself thru content of awarenes, as in you cant be a subjecr without the object... Hope something of what I mean is understood, or probabily all that thinking won t do much...?

It seems to me that you are expecting to realize what you are? What we are doing here is more about seeing what you aren't: a separate, solid, permanent entity, a person, a real self.

Is the realization of no self even an experience?

Yes it is. It is an experience. It's only by experiencing this for yourself that you will know it's the truth.

Does the memory of that realization change the mental situation

Answering from my experience I would say it's the seeing of experience that may change your mental situation. We aren't trying to change thoughts but by being aware of thoughts they may eventually change.

or is something in the nature of how you experience change?

The way you perceive the nature of how you experience may change because you may start noticing what is here now in a different way. In other words, the ability of seeing your immediate direct experience as it is may change the way you perceive your experience.

Sorry for rambling but those are some of the confusions here...

Feel at ease to share what's going on with you. I can't guide you if you don't tell me what we should be talking about or looking at. Feeling confusion is normal and to be expected. You are entering unknown waters and going outside your comfort zone.

So experiences of the senses are content of awarenes, so its like saying the miror will recognize itself thru the reflections in a mirror, so I m wondering how does awarenes recognizing itself happens, and omit that is very related to realizing the no self, I think it is the same... Wondering if I m just lost in a thinking maze....

For lack of better words I think the realization of Self / No-self are like two sides of the same coin. You have to look at the coin to see what is there and even if you only can see one side you will eventually also see the other. It's the ability to see that opens the door to further realizations.

Again sory for rambling but it s not so easy to be clear and concise in talking about the quality of experience itself...

Yes I know, I also struggle with language. Anyway I understand what you are sharing and if you notice that I don't, you can let me know or ask questions.

I suggest you don't try to realize what you are at the time being, you can go back to that later if you want to.

Since we are questioning the existence of a real separate self I would like you to try this as best as you can: let's say I've been living in the jungle without having learned any language. I was found out and you are trying to help me learn English and in today's lesson you want me to learn the word cup. The direct path to make me realize what a cup is is by showing me a cup. You would give me a cup and you would say the word cup at the same time. I would use my ability to see, touch, listen, to realize what you meant by cup. I would have a direct experience of a cup and I would know what a cup is.

Then you would try to teach me the word I. I don't know English, so you have to show me a real I if you want me to experience an I (like you did with the cup). What would you show me to make me realize what the word I points to?

Take care,
S

[Peter0]

Hello Sandra, your answers are very helpful.
So regarding the question about how I would show someone the I, in a conventional sense I would maybe point to my chest and say I or maybe my head and than somehow show that thing that is looking thru my eyes, tough that would probabily be too complex. But I assume you are pointing here to the fact that all I could show someone and say the word I are body and maybe the mind( with pointing to my head). And normali we identify with the body mind conplex, but all that is here is a conglomerate of parts, the body consists of arms legs stonach brain... And the mind of toughts emotions ideas.. So there is nothing solid here that I could point to and say this is the I...

[Canfora]

Hi Peter,

Thank you for following my suggestion, nice answer! Yes, if you are like me, you wouldn't be able to show a self. The cup exists, evidences of its existence can be found even if you aren't thinking about a cup, but a real self can't be found even if you think it's real. How amazing isn't it?

Does that mean that although you have thoughts about the I, when you try to find an I, by looking to what surrounds you - to what you know its inside the body, to thoughts and memories and also to what's outside the body - you can't see/find this I?

Try looking again to what is here, as it is, and see if you can find the separate, solid, permanent I the thoughts say is real and let me know how doing this goes. What can you see? What can't you see?

I wish you a peaceful, healthful holiday season Peter. Take care,
S

[Canfora]

Hi Peter,

Thank you for following my suggestion, nice answer! Yes, if you are like me, you wouldn't be able to show a self. The cup exists, evidences of its existence can be found even if you aren't thinking about a cup, but a real self can't be found even if you think it's real. How amazing isn't it?

Does that mean that although you have thoughts about the I, when you try to find an I, by looking to what surrounds you - to what you know its inside the body, to thoughts and memories and also to what's outside the body - you can't see/find this I?

Try looking again to what is here, as it is, and see if you can find the separate, solid, permanent I the thoughts say is real and let me know how doing this goes. What can you see? What can't you see?

I wish you a peaceful, healthful holiday season Peter. Take care,
S

[Canfora]

Hi Peter,

Thank you for following my suggestion, nice answer! Yes, if you are like me, you wouldn't be able to show a self. The cup exists, evidences of its existence can be found even if you aren't thinking about a cup, but a real self can't be found even if you think it's real. How amazing isn't it?

Does that mean that although you have thoughts about the I, when you try to find an I, by looking to what surrounds you - to what you know its inside the body, to thoughts and memories and also to what's outside the body - you can't see/find this I?

Try looking again to what is here, as it is, and see if you can find the separate, solid, permanent I the thoughts say is real and let me know how doing this goes. What can you see? What can't you see?

I wish you a peaceful, healthful holiday season Peter. Take care,
S

[Canfora]

Did I post many equal posts? Sorry!
It seemed my initialy post wasn't being Submited.