It's just time to do this

[MsBlueSky]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that someone who has seen through the stories they were taught will find themselves drawn to respond to this thread and be willing to engage with pointing (and prodding a bit, depending on how stubborn the clinging is here), will name what I'm still not seeing clearly and urge me to stay honest and curious.

What are you looking for at LU?
I can't express why I can't put this work down anymore, but it feels like it needs to be done now. Nothing else (aside from what people I care about ask of me) seems meaningful while I'm wrapped in this (thinning) gauze of beliefs and identification *and* feeling so impelled to see through it.

My mind is looking for that hit of aha moment excitement. I'm not sure who/what else, if anything, is responding when I ask myself what I am looking for. But other things come up: less suffering, the ability to stay with the gorgeousness of the present moment without the intense discomfort that makes me want to jump up and do something. I'm definitely tired of that too. There's some silliness about getting back to all the things I can barely bring myself to do for inauthentic reasons anymore, and find more authentic reasons to do them (and feel the egoic hit of accomplishment and good person-ness.)

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I think I'm mostly wanting the sense of social pressure from an imaginary person waiting for me to answer questions, and sit with inquiry (and do it well, haha!), to see if that sense of pressure and efforting will spark whatever feels so pregnant and poised to shift. But I also expect that a guided conversation will orient me to what I'm still not seeing or not wanting to unpack.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Oh, I'm a householder. Began in my early 30s with vipassana meditation, trying to take the edge off the monkey mind. Had two kids and mostly stopped meditating to be consumed by parenting voices. I did put a lot of inquiry energy into navigating out of the collective programming of how babies and kids are supposed to be raised. Byron Katie's work was profoundly helpful. Fell into chronic fatigue at some point, climbed out of that through some very basic reconnecting with inner voice and shedding of accumulated roles and rules. Continued back on a spiritual path with some readings and listenings and a weekend retreat or so with Gangaji and Adyashanti. The urge to go deeper and see more clearly has been escalating in the last couple of years, and pandemic kicked it into high gear. Something about recently hearing Adya was going on sabbatical pushed me to just stop seeking and looking for someone else's voice and be done with it. Oh, and then I've spent the last week or two reading through the gateless gatecrashers pdf and going through the content of the phone app this site created.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Luchana]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

My name is Luchana and I can walk with you here if you are ok?

I can see from your intro that you've done a lot of work till now and that's great. For the time of our exploration I would advise you to leave aside all the books, videos and other's opinions regarding this subject.

Before we start can you look at this question again and give it another try?

What are you looking for precisely?

Much love,
Luchana

[MsBlueSky]

Thank you so very much, Luchana, for your accompaniment.

What are you looking for precisely?

I am looking for relief from the mental and emotional reactions that come from believing my thoughts about who I am (limiting beliefs, self-critical beliefs, regrets, a sense of loss embedded in mortality thoughts), how I am supposed to be with others (roles I inhabit in my family of origin, with my kids and husband, and with every person I encounter), and what I believe is happening in the world around me.

I am looking for relief from a frequent sense that I need to be doing something I'm not doing, taking an action to change an event or situation in the apparent world, and from the critical thoughts that arise when I do not take action or the action I take does not result in what thoughts say should have happened.

I am looking for a more frequent or stable experience of peace, spaciousness, and energy.

I am looking for the ability to sustain presence in the moment and not be lost in thoughts, even when they are not creating unpleasant reactions in me.

I see all the "I", "me" and "my" above, and that I am looking for a more comfortable sense of a separate self to inhabit. And, I don't have another point of view to look from at the moment.

[Luchana]

Hi MsBlueSky,

(would you like me to call you like this or do you prefer another name?)

Thanks for looking at this question with honesty. t’s important because it helps to see the hidden expectation behind. And every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. It's quite common that very easy one can miss the obvious because is expecting something to happen, to change, to desolve, to melt, to disappear etc. Even what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation.
From my experience I can share with you that it's never, ever the way we expected to be.
Many of us have the impression that seeing through the illusion of a separate self will come with some special glimpse and will be accompainied with such qualities like peace, calmness, relax and no painful emotions... But seeing no self is not a state to abide in. All states come and go and are subject to change.

I am looking for relief from the mental and emotional reactions that come from believing my thoughts about who I am (limiting beliefs, self-critical beliefs, regrets, a sense of loss embedded in mortality thoughts), how I am supposed to be with others (roles I inhabit in my family of origin, with my kids and husband, and with every person I encounter), and what I believe is happening in the world around me.

It's natural for us as human beings to desire relief, to want to live in piece with no worry.
But relief from mental and emotional reactions may or may not happen. Еmotional trauma and pain don’t desolve in an instant the moment you see no-self. Some of them (if not all) requires lot's of further looking and somethimes these could disolve till the end of the living organism. Seeing no - self is the first step, just the begining. And the personality stays almost intact.
Old traumas, hidden wounds, existential crisis are not going to disappear with a magic stick, just because the self is seen through.
Here we will look at thoughts and thougth process closely to see how things are happening in reality.

I am looking for relief from a frequent sense that I need to be doing something I'm not doing, taking an action to change an event or situation in the apparent world, and from the critical thoughts that arise when I do not take action or the action I take does not result in what thoughts say should have happened.

Seeing that no one has never beem doing anything may bring some relief, yes. But again no one knows in advance. Taking action will happen, critical thoughts will arrise. It's just the idea that someone is making it all fall apart

I am looking for a more frequent or stable experience of peace, spaciousness, and energy.

And with no other emotions? Is that even possible? The buffet of life is wide opened, everything is already served so to speak.
It is just not you picking :-)

I am looking for the ability to sustain presence in the moment and not be lost in thoughts, even when they are not creating unpleasant reactions in me.

There is no you even now and still losting in thoughts happen, unpleasant reactions still happen.
Actually freedom is not from, but WITH.

I see all the "I", "me" and "my" above, and that I am looking for a more comfortable sense of a separate self to inhabit. And, I don't have another point of view to look from at the moment.

:-) It is very good that you see this. Yes, the view point of a separate entity, I, me can never imagine what should be without a me. It can only imagine good things for itself. But that's ok.


Please read my comments several times and see your expecrations from a different perspective.

Is there a resistance to any of it?


Are you ready to start?

Much love
Luchana

[MsBlueSky]

Hi Luchana!

(would you like me to call you like this or do you prefer another name?)

Sue is what I go by and am happy to use here. Thank you for asking.

All states come and go and are subject to change.

Reading this above, and relaxing into the truth of it, feels very peaceful.

Еmotional trauma and pain don’t desolve in an instant the moment you see no-self. Some of them (if not all) requires lot's of further looking and somethimes these could disolve till the end of the living organism. Seeing no - self is the first step, just the begining. And the personality stays almost intact.

The above also feels fine and good and interesting to experience. I actually really enjoy seeing through a belief or getting a completely different perspective on something I was believing. (though I think I feel a little too much enthusiasm about this idea right now, and a wondering if I am attached to the idea of still being able to work on making a shinier, better version of Sue.)

I am looking for a more frequent or stable experience of peace, spaciousness, and energy.
And with no other emotions? Is that even possible? The buffet of life is wide opened, everything is already served so to speak.
It is just not you picking :-)

Right! Who would want such a limited taste sensation of experiences? I can imagine, if I am not taking any of it personally, how interesting it would all be to watch.

Is there a resistance to any of it?

I am not feeling any resistance that I notice. Just a not-knowing about how to go forward.

Are you ready to start?

Yes, very much ready.

With gratitude,
Sue

[Luchana]

Hi Sue,

Reading this above, and relaxing into the truth of it, feels very peaceful.

Nice to read this :-)

and a wondering if I am attached to the idea of still being able to work on making a shinier, better version of Sue.)

It's good that you can see this and in fact it's inevitable - as long as there is belief in me there will be a constant longing for me to be better.

I am not feeling any resistance that I notice. Just a not-knowing about how to go forward.

Not-knowing is not so bad actually.

Are you ready to start?

Yes, very much ready.

Great :-)

Tell me what are you doing exactly in order to think?

How do you create a thought into existence?

Can you stop a thought from appearing?

Can you cut a thought in the middle?

Where does the thought come from?


Take your time, don't rush to asnwer the questions. Look for a whole day each question and explore at experience.
Reply the questions one by one.

Look vigilantly with curiosity.


Much love,
Luchana

[MsBlueSky]

Hi Luchana,

Thank you for the questions and instructions. I will keep answering these for a few days, but here's what I'm noticing today.

Tell me what are you doing exactly in order to think?

Nothing. I'm often not even paying attention when thinking happens. It just arises.

I don't know if I am spacing out, or just not thinking, before a thought arises and I notice it. I don't know where "I" am (or the "I" is) prior to thought arising and that is really unsettling.

I actually feel a little frightened or anxious when I keep trying to look at what happens just before a noticeable thought arises.

How do you create a thought into existence?

I am clear that many thoughts are just happening, whether I want them to or not (mostly not!) They just feel like mind babble, or are so clearly unrelated to the previous thought in my attention that I don't try to claim it as mine. I am surprised enough by the arising to not think that "I" thought it into existence.

But I do cling to an idea that some thoughts I am the doer of. One type of thought I think that I am the thinker of is writing/creating.

So, I notice right now that I am not actually "writing" this answer to you. I am sitting with my hands on a keyboard, and some words are appearing as thoughts. Some words come in a rush and fingers move and now I see them on the screen, other times, there are long pauses, or words that arise as a thought but then stop and fingers don't move, and mind is blank even, then more word thoughts appear, fingers move, something (no, not something, just another thought) says that's good, that's right. When I think I am creating, "I" am not doing it. I am just sitting here for it to happen through. (Yikes, I don't like that either! Or something doesn't like it...)

Another place that I think that I am creating a thought is when thought leads to action, or non-action that feels significant to me.

My mom just called and I looked at my phone. The thought flashed very quickly through, "you usually jump to answer her call. You don't have to." And then the thought, "I don't want to. I just don't want to talk to her because I think she's calling to make me feel guilty for not spending more time with her and my sister this week." (And I have no idea if that is true or if she was even calling me; if could have been an accidental dial.)

And I watched the phone until it stopped ringing. I didn't pick it up, even though a thought told me I should pick it up, and another thought said no! and another thought said, you are a bad daughter for not wanting to talk to your mom, for not doing what she wants you to do.

It was just a mess of thoughts, none of which "I" created. Even though a thought led to an action (not answering the phone) and I felt bad that "I" had not answered the phone, I can't see where there was a choice that "I" made, really. I didn't create any of the thoughts that ran so fast through my head. I had so many different thoughts and they were telling me to do different things and how can any of that have been "me"? I can't find where the action came from, where "I" decided not to answer the phone. (And that feels a little scary too.)

And the way that the not answering the phone was followed by the thought that "I" was a bad person because of it, just seemed, well, ridiculous.

I will keep looking tomorrow.

[MsBlueSky]

Okay, back for some more reporting in.

Can you stop a thought from appearing?

Noooo. I feel like it's not necessarily *impossible* to stop a thought, but more that I really don't seem to know what thought is coming next in order to even try to stop it. It is here before I have a chance to notice it, or to do anything about it, is as close as I can look at it at the moment.

Can you cut a thought in the middle?

I do feel like I can do this, at least in some circumstances. I believe that I will sometimes start to think about something I don't want to think about and can cut off the line of thought, especially if it is upsetting.

Is it true that "I" am cutting off the upsetting thought? I really don't know. I am not sure if "I" am really doing the thing, or if I'm just having a thought about "I" doing the thing but the thing is just happening (a thought starting and then cutting off) on its own. I am finding this very hard to look directly at, actually. My thinking wants to slide away from it.

Where does the thought come from?

From nothingness. Thin air. Not there, then there all in a moment. I don't have an answer for this, I don't understand how to even think about where thoughts come from. Not me making thoughts happen. Thoughts appear and I don't understand why.

I will look more tomorrow. I don't feel like I did a very good job today, or remembered to check in and watch thoughts very often. I think there was a lot of resistance and avoidance happening.

[Luchana]

хi Sue,

you did a very good looking. Thank you for your replies.

Nothing. I'm often not even paying attention when thinking happens. It just arises.

Exactly!
What comes with this?

My mom just called and I looked at my phone. The thought flashed very quickly through, "you usually jump to answer her call. You don't have to." And then the thought, "I don't want to. I just don't want to talk to her because I think she's calling to make me feel guilty for not spending more time with her and my sister this week." (And I have no idea if that is true or if she was even calling me; if could have been an accidental dial.)

And I watched the phone until it stopped ringing. I didn't pick it up, even though a thought told me I should pick it up, and another thought said no! and another thought said, you are a bad daughter for not wanting to talk to your mom, for not doing what she wants you to do.

It was just a mess of thoughts, none of which "I" created. Even though a thought led to an action (not answering the phone) and I felt bad that "I" had not answered the phone, I can't see where there was a choice that "I" made, really. I didn't create any of the thoughts that ran so fast through my head. I had so many different thoughts and they were telling me to do different things and how can any of that have been "me"? I can't find where the action came from, where "I" decided not to answer the phone. (And that feels a little scary too.)

And the way that the not answering the phone was followed by the thought that "I" was a bad person because of it, just seemed, well, ridiculous.

What a beautiful observation!

Look - Do these chaotic thoughts (this inner voice) knows to whom they are speaking to?

I actually feel a little frightened or anxious when I keep trying to look at what happens

(And that feels a little scary too.)

Thank you for sharing this with me. It’s important because fear can be a hindrance of going further. But actually, fear is nothing more than a protective mechanism, and it does its job well.
Now, let's take a closer look at this.
Sit somewhere quietly and notice that you are in a secure environment- no real danger is there.

Look at fear and just let it be here. Find where in the body is being felt, bring it closer, invite it to share its wisdom. It's fine to just let it be. It is protecting something from being found out. It is a sensation.
So, respect it and say "Thank you, fear for protecting me". Then look what is behind fear.
Examine it closely. Feel it. Don’t try to fix it or solve it, just sit with it.
Ask the fear:

What do you want to protect me from?

What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen?

Observe what images and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to fear.

If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and mental images what is BEHIND the fear?

Take as much time as you need and write what comes up.

Much love,
Luchana

[Luchana]

And I will reply your second message after.
L.

[MsBlueSky]

Good morning Luchana (it is morning here at least, in Colorado, and a sunny, mild one)

Okay, I'm going to start with this piece of the work, because of what happened when I was sleeping/starting to waken.

I had a dream with a repeated theme of wading in shallow waters but getting too close to rip tides (those deep fast running places that can pull you away and drown you.) That dream both feels likes scary emotional states and points to deep and intense emotional states to me.

In the midst or aftermath of this dream or both, I was, in my sleep state and a tiny bit of conscious awareness, overcome with back, heavy, awful emotion. Just a huge block of crushing... grief and despair, and a lot of fear around this being on me and in me. Like all of the grief and hopelessness from my father's death, or a particularly painful breaking up with what I thought was a true love when I was young.

But then these questions were running well enough in me that they started popping up in the felt experience of the overwhelming awfulness, "who is feeling this?" "is there a problem with experiencing this?" "what's behind this?"

The questions didn't make everything sunny and light and happy, but they released the tension of resisting and a lot of the fear drained away. I just felt what was happening in my mostly-asleep state and I knew I was okay, without really answering the questions with words/thoughts.

I woke up feeling oddly drained in a mostly pleasant way (like when a fever finally breaks and you're tired but it's pleasant, I think languor is the right word.) Then I read your reply, and went with my cup of tea to sit in my sunporch and invite the fear back. What came was the dream fear more than the inquiry fear (I'll sit with it again, when fear from the looking arises next.)

The fear felt concentrated in my chest and was so dense and heavy on my heart center it made me want to cough.

What happened next was a flow and a jumble, but you have to tell things in a line of words, so it was something like: weeping, thinking about how you sign every email with "much love" and how I can't bring myself to say that and feel genuine and how I don't deserve much love and how I don't know how to feel and reflect back love because I didn't get love in that generous, constant, reliable way, and how I don't deserve love because I am bad and I do it wrong and that is my Dad's voice, always receiving whatever I did/showed him with "this is good, but you know what would have been better, if you'd done X/Y/Z" or "Why'd you do that?! That was stupid!" Just a profound sense of never doing it right and never being good enough and never being worthy of love and a fear that I can never give love and that then proves I'm not doing it/not good enough/not worthy.

A thought that the fear about looking for the "I" is the fear we will find this mess of ugly stories and beliefs that can't be born, that will crumble us. (what's the "us". the looker and the fear that is hiding the pain of the real story of Sue. something like that.)

Then "what's behind the fear and what's behind the ugly stories" and a seeing of absolutely nothing. A bug mess of stuck energy, a tangle that disappears when you get the yarn unknotted and the yarn isn't anything meaningful or real either.

A thought of why would "I" hold onto belief in an "I" that felt so awful at it's base.

And a feeling of calm and in the body a feeling like when a gong has been struck and the reverberations are felt for a while.

Look at fear and just let it be here. Find where in the body is being felt, bring it closer, invite it to share its wisdom. It's fine to just let it be. It is protecting something from being found out. It is a sensation.
So, respect it and say "Thank you, fear for protecting me". Then look what is behind fear.
Examine it closely. Feel it. Don’t try to fix it or solve it, just sit with it.
Ask the fear:

What do you want to protect me from?

What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen?

Observe what images and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to fear.

If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and mental images what is BEHIND the fear?

Take as much time as you need and write what comes up.

Much love,
Luchana

I will come back and answer the other two questions in your reply, but I want to give this some time to settle this morning.

Thank you, Luchana (the story of Sue knows how to be grateful for what she receives, saying much love still feels scary, I will sit with that fear acutally right now)

[MsBlueSky]

Nothing. I'm often not even paying attention when thinking happens. It just arises.

Exactly!
What comes with this?

This is so hard to pay close attention to and answer. The attention keeps wanting to slide away from it.

Something (is it a thought? Is this whole experience of resistance just thoughts arguing with other thoughts? There's not even anything that's actually resisting??) wants to argue that some thoughts are random and source-less, but "I" must be thinking other thoughts into existence -- the ones that feel familiar, more meaningful, or relevant to a sense of me. But those are familiar to me because they are repetitive, not because I'm making them happen.

The thoughts that come up more often somehow get turned into proof that I am the thinker, because "I" recognize the thoughts, but only because they are frequent visitors.

Still feeling a bit dizzy trying to follow this to... a place where I am forced to give up belief in the thinker/doer/self.

Look - Do these chaotic thoughts (this inner voice) knows to whom they are speaking to?

No. They feel like ghosts in a machine, tape recordings on a loop.

I will look more tomorrow.

[Luchana]

Good morning Sue,

What happened next was a flow and a jumble, but you have to tell things in a line of words, so it was something like: weeping, thinking about how you sign every email with "much love" and how I can't bring myself to say that and feel genuine and how I don't deserve much love and how I don't know how to feel and reflect back love because I didn't get love in that generous, constant, reliable way, and how I don't deserve love because I am bad and I do it wrong and that is my Dad's voice, always receiving whatever I did/showed him with "this is good, but you know what would have been better, if you'd done X/Y/Z" or "Why'd you do that?! That was stupid!" Just a profound sense of never doing it right and never being good enough and never being worthy of love and a fear that I can never give love and that then proves I'm not doing it/not good enough/not worthy.

Oh, reading this brought tears in my eyes. There is nothing we can do to desserve or give love back.The truth is that you are made of love, all there is is love. It is just not mine or yours. Only seems different, these are thougths, about thoughts about other thoughts. And you are becoming to see their play :-)

A thought that the fear about looking for the "I" is the fear we will find this mess of ugly stories and beliefs that can't be born, that will crumble us. (what's the "us". the looker and the fear that is hiding the pain of the real story of Sue. something like that.)

Yep, the fear is telling a story, but the story is not true.
It's so good that you can see this.

Then "what's behind the fear and what's behind the ugly stories" and a seeing of absolutely nothing. A bug mess of stuck energy, a tangle that disappears when you get the yarn unknotted and the yarn isn't anything meaningful or real either.

Exactly! Fear protects nothing. It's just a sensation and like each sensation comes and goes.

And a feeling of calm and in the body a feeling like when a gong has been struck and the reverberations are felt for a while.

Nice :-) When fear is met like this it went away and what's left is calmness.

Thank you, Luchana (the story of Sue knows how to be grateful for what she receives, saying much love still feels scary, I will sit with that fear acutally right now)

You are most welcome :-)
Aslo if you are ok we can make a video chat?
Maybe Sunday? My morning is your evening and vice versa.

Much love,
Luchana

[Luchana]

Hi Sue,

I will look more tomorrow. I don't feel like I did a very good job today, or remembered to check in and watch thoughts very often. I think there was a lot of resistance and avoidance happening.

It is very common for fear and resistant to appear at the time of investigation like this. But also - avoidance, boredom, something more important to do, etc. Just to know and to not give up. You are doing really great.

I read all your replies and there is something which needs attention. And these are thoughts and how thoughts are happening and especially a thought about me, Sue.

So let's make an exercise.

Let’s do some more investogation in thought and especially thought about “me, “I”, self.

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened)

Take you time and let me know what you find.

Much love,
Luchana

[MsBlueSky]

Hi Luchana,

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened)

I did this a few different times today and I noticed different things, and many of them felt quite confusing.

I noticed that I don't think coherent thoughts as much as I thought I did. I have assumed that I am thinking my way through my days, because I have a certain number of very obvious thoughts (labeling thoughts, repetitive thoughts, rehearsing conversations I think I might have in the future or rehashing what I said in the past, painful thoughts that are judgmental about me or others), but I don't think it's nearly as constant an activity as I thought.

I noticed lots of fragmentary thoughts. I'd start to think something and interrupt it with "oh, there's a thought about X".

I noticed that what sometimes happened was a pretty simple noticing (Dog barking, orchid blooming, truck revving) quickly followed by a labeling, and then often followed by a story that related to me and what I should or shouldn't be doing about whatever I noticed or whether I liked it or was annoyed by it.

I feel like there were surprising stretches of time when I was present without thinking and I really didn't know what to make of that -- it felt like an unsettling blankness, and I wondered if I was actually failing to be present or checking out somehow, because it didn't feel... like I was really there. (Because the story of *I* wasn't running, right?) I wondered if I just don't recognize what calm ordinary presence feels like? Sometimes I can be dazzled into what feels like intense presence by a sunset or a beautiful view, but maybe presence can be quieter and less showy?

I noticed that I did a lot of little doing without any thinking whatsoever -- shifting my body to get comfortable, petting the dog, turning on a light. These actions just happened.

I will keep looking with this exercise tomorrow, as I have time. It is Thanksgiving holiday here and we will be visiting with a few friends in the nearby mountains. Lovely, but also people-y and that makes it harder for me to remember to be still and notice!

Aslo if you are ok we can make a video chat?
Maybe Sunday? My morning is your evening and vice versa.

I would love to. I will be back home by 10:15 Sunday morning (which I think would be 7:15 Sunday evening your time, if that's not too late.)

Thank you again,

Sue