The farther you enter into the truth, the deeper it is

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Bankei1
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The farther you enter into the truth, the deeper it is

Postby Bankei1 » Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:05 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My understanding is that there is no doer, nobody in control, and that life is just living. There is no centre, no ultimate reference point which we can say this is ME. Another way of explaining this is that nothing is personal including awareness itself. When the centre or "I" is looked for nothing personal is found.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for some practical guidance around investigating the truth of who I really am. I am looking for a guide who can see the error of my views and beliefs and to point them out the best he or she can. I am looking to see that what I tke myself to be is not what I am. What I really are I do not know but I trust that this ME is not it. In a sentence i am looking for liberation or freedom from the bondage of SELF/ME/I
It feels like enough is enough and I want to see through the personal story.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect that a guide will point to what is obvious so that it can be seen. I expect the conversation to be direct and to challenge me to look again and again at what is actually happening and not what I believe to be happening. The pursuit of awakening seems to have taken over my life and I need and really want to be pushed and to see the truth of what is going on. I investigate each and every day but I need some more experienced fresh eyes to guide me to see the truth.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I spent 20 years as a Buddhist but have now left that path to explore the more direct non-duality way of investigating the truth. I have been on numerous retreats and meditated for many years but feel rather disillusioned with it all. The truth always seemed to be out of reach and if I only tried harder and purified myself then I would be more worthy. I never realised that "I" would never awaken.
I have sat in on online group satsangs with Sailor Bob Adamson, but think I need a more direct and personal approach.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Anastacia42
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Re: The farther you enter into the truth, the deeper it is

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:17 pm

Hi,

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

Welcome to the direct personal approach you asked for. (Tempting to say: be careful what you wish for, but this really is it and you really can see what you are asking to see.)

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Stop acting so small. You are the universe in ecstatic motion."

~ Rumi

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Bankei1
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Re: The farther you enter into the truth, the deeper it is

Postby Bankei1 » Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:45 pm

Hello Stacy, thank you very much., I would love you to be my guide. My name is Mal and I live in the UK.

I will post everyday or at least every other day and respond to any questions you have.
Here are my responses to your four questions.
How will life change?
If I am truly honest I dont know how life will change but there is a yearning to follow this instinct to be free. I am willing to pay the price I believe. I have reached a point where really I don't know anymore.
Let me try to answer your question further.
I imagine life would not be taken so seriously and personally. That there would be a travelling lighter. I have an intuition that it will be total intimacy with life but not for ME. I dont want to sound grand but this is what is going on.

How will you change?
I won't be taking criticisms so personally. I would not be constantly thinking about myself. There will be less inner turmoil eventually. I imagine there will be less psychological fear and anxiety. I will be more honest and will not be trying to manipulate every five seconds.

What will be different?
To be honest Stacy I just dont have a clue. In a way I am tired of wishing things to be different, but I know that is not what you are asking.
I imagine perhaps there will less resistance to the difficult things in life such as health, financial and relationship issues.
There will be no more questions. There will be less struggling to make life how I want it to be.
What is missing?
Great question! It feels more like there is something in the way. Some idea, some notion, some ridiculous belief that I am separate. Right now peace is missing, right now ease is missing, right now love is missing. Right now the only "thing" that will resolve suffering is missing.

I hope this is what you are looking for. I tend not to write a lot so that is ok I hope too.

Thank you so much, love to you for doing this, Mal

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Anastacia42
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Re: The farther you enter into the truth, the deeper it is

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:03 pm

Thank you, Mal. We get a lot of former Buddhists here. As long as you can drop all of the stories your thinking tells and simply LOOK, you can be successful in seeing no self. Clinging to stories will slow you down.

Your expectations are relatively reasonable, but I want to caution you that while yes, it IS grand, it is also very ordinary There is usually a honeymoon period, followed by a feeling of "losing it." Nothing was lost. You will simply bump up against the next unquestioned and untrue story. Self is just the first of these.

Now.

What comes up when is read that there is no self, never was and never will be? That the whole idea is no more real than Santa Claus?

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Stop acting so small. You are the universe in ecstatic motion."

~ Rumi

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Bankei1
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Re: The farther you enter into the truth, the deeper it is

Postby Bankei1 » Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:56 pm

Thank you Stacy, I will watch the expectations.
What comes up when is read that there is no self, never was and never will be? That the whole idea is no more real than Santa Claus?
Firstly there was just a pause. An acknowledgment of the statement of truth.

Along side the pause was noticing a sense of freedom. That no self means freedom from seeking, freedom from ME.
Then along came something like MY GOD I KNOW THIS IS TRUE. Somewhere, somehow this is known to be true. Santa Claus is a great metaphor.

There is a felt sense that this statement is true. In a way it is kind of obvious.That there is a little PERSON inside directing everything is ridiculous.

What else came up was that the self or ME is just an image "in the head," which is somehow taken to be ME...and yet something is still being believed or assumed to be a personal ME.

Thank you Stacy, I hope that will do for now...thank you, love to you, Mal

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Re: The farther you enter into the truth, the deeper it is

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:20 pm

Okay, Mal. It sounds like you are 99% there and just not letting go.

So, next

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)


Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Now that you know how to look (and NOT think) about this. Tell me: how does it FEEL to see no self as you described in the previous reply?

Then try this pointer:

Imagine “me”

Many experience the ‘me’ as being centered in the head.

What I would like you to do is imagine a small apple centered in the head.

Before the apple disappears….

…imagine a canary centered in the head, tweeting away.

Before, the canary flies off (weird huh?)….

…imagine a 'me' centered in the head.

Stay with it…

…imagine it is completely transparent. See straight through it…
…imagine there not seeming to be a 'me' in the head anymore.

Give it a go, see what happens. Write what happens.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Stop acting so small. You are the universe in ecstatic motion."

~ Rumi

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Bankei1
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Re: The farther you enter into the truth, the deeper it is

Postby Bankei1 » Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:23 pm

Hello Stacy, thank you. Let me look today and will report back tomorrow. Much appreciated, love to you...Mal

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Anastacia42
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Re: The farther you enter into the truth, the deeper it is

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:22 pm

Thanks, Mal.
~ Stacy

"Stop acting so small. You are the universe in ecstatic motion."

~ Rumi

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Bankei1
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Re: The farther you enter into the truth, the deeper it is

Postby Bankei1 » Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:41 pm

What comes up when is read that there is no self, never was and never will be? That the whole idea is no more real than Santa Claus?
This is looking after your point of seeing rather than thinking.
The first thing noticed was just seeing the colour of the desk…
Secondly was a feeling/sensation of “ME” looking from behind the eyes…
There was a little nervy feeling in the belly…
A wondering how we could be fooled so deeply by the illusion
The attention went to the head when I read this and all that was observed was feeling/sensation I the area.
I wonder if there is some subtle thought going on and pure seeing isn’t happening?



Then try this pointer:

Imagine “me”

Many experience the ‘me’ as being centered in the head.

What I would like you to do is imagine a small apple centered in the head.

Before the apple disappears….

…imagine a canary centered in the head, tweeting away.

Before, the canary flies off (weird huh?)….

…imagine a 'me' centered in the head.

Stay with it…

…imagine it is completely transparent. See straight through it…
…imagine there not seeming to be a 'me' in the head anymore.

Give it a go, see what happens. Write what happens.

Imaging the apple was easy so too was the canary. What was noticed was just how effortless the imaging was.

When I moved onto the “me” I wasn’t even sure what I was imagining.
- Does the “me” look like a small Mal about 1 inch high…
- Is it a round disc of light…
- Is it a ball of energy…

The ridiculousness of this struck me…if a “me” was found what would it even look like!
Then I decided to look again and imagined al little figure and it was pointing to itself ME ME ME. Looked straight through it and
just left with sensation. I could not find any MENESS in any of the sensations as the attention moved around.
But then I came to ap point where I think there is a holding on or where I feel stuck.
It seems that the very awareness that is looking is ME. Like the awareness has been captured by something and/or labelled as ME. Which seems convincing.

This is where I can get frustrated.

I don’t find any THING behind the eyes at all so I don’t really get what’s going on when I get to this stage.

You mentioned previously that there was a not letting go...

Thank you Stacy, love, Mal

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Anastacia42
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Re: The farther you enter into the truth, the deeper it is

Postby Anastacia42 » Sun Oct 03, 2021 2:27 pm

Good morning, Mal,

Good.

There IS Awareness. That doesn't go away. Don't try to make Awareness into a separate "me." It is not.

We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)



Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. (people miss this a lot... this really means EXACTLY)

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

This will help train you to recognize content of thought which is a made up story - just like "self."

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Stop acting so small. You are the universe in ecstatic motion."

~ Rumi

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Bankei1
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Re: The farther you enter into the truth, the deeper it is

Postby Bankei1 » Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:35 am

Hello Stacy, thank you.
There IS Awareness. That doesn't go away. Don't try to make Awareness into a separate "me." It is not.

We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..
Firstly Stacy about the above. My seeming experience does appear to be ME that is aware. Just wanted to drop that is as it seems to be where I am stuck.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:


Seeing a cup, simply= image/color

Smelling coffee, simply = smell

Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation

Tasting the coffee, simply = taste

Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound

Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought



Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.



Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. (people miss this a lot... this really means EXACTLY)  

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps.

Those are the only items any experience can be.

This will help train you to recognize content of thought which is a made up story - just like "self."



Can you clarify for me. I think I know what you are pointing to but just want to be sure.
So eating porridge - just reporting back on the actual sense experience of eating porridge? Not the mental commentary. So it would be like -
Eating Porridge = Tasting, and Seeing
Sitting on couch = sensation
Walking - sensation - sounds = colours.

It's the actual reporting back I am not clear about. You don't want me to write which colour it is but just noticing colour?

Sorry to labour this but I want to really enter into this...

Much love to you, Mal

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Re: The farther you enter into the truth, the deeper it is

Postby Anastacia42 » Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:51 am

Correct.
You don't want me to write which colour it is but just noticing colour?
Colors are made up.

ALL words are made up, even Seeing, Hearing, Feeling, Tasting, Smelling & Thought Arising, but we have pared it to the bare minimum to indicate these sensory happenings.

I'm glad you asked. Better that than post a lot that has to be explained & done over again.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Stop acting so small. You are the universe in ecstatic motion."

~ Rumi

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Bankei1
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Re: The farther you enter into the truth, the deeper it is

Postby Bankei1 » Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:03 pm

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities


Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.



So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:


Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell

Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation

Tasting the coffee, simply = taste

Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound

Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought




Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. (people miss this a lot... this really means EXACTLY)  


Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

This will help train you to recognize content of thought which is a made up story - just like "self."


Hello Stacy, interesting stuff...so direct!

MORNING
Lying in bed -
Feeling of pressure - simply sensation
Hearing the traffic and birds - simply sound
Seeing ceiling- simply colour
Seeing light shade - simply shape/image, colour
Thoughts about bed - simply thought

AFTERNOON
Walking dog on beach -
Feeling of feet on ground - simply sensation
Seeing clouds - simply image/shape colour
Smelling sea air - simply smell
Tasting remains of coffee - simply taste
Hearing wind and sea - simply hearing
Thoughts about dogs - dimply thought

SITTING HERE NOW
Writing to you
Seeing of laptop - image/shape, colour - simply seeing
Seeing of objects on periphery of vision - simply seeing
Thought about how to write - simply thought
Tasting of chocolate biscuit/cookie - simply taste
Feeling of contact with bed - simply sensation
Smelling of (sea) dog lying on floor - simply smell
Feeling of impulse to write something - simply sensation (not sure if thought was there too)
Hearing of typing - simply hearing
Hearing dog breathing - simply hearing



I noticed that everything that was not pure sensing was thinking about what was not happening. In fact most of the thinking was about what was not happening, such as what am I going to make for dinner later, which actually may be useful I believe. Then noticed thoughts about something that happened (or did it?) over 20 years ago with my parents. The thoughts themselves were happening but the story/content was not.

I noticed that when the attention got lost in the content/story I seemed to lose a kind or presence here and now.

Thoughts about what was happening were actually rather few in volume.

Life is so simple when in the senses, is this what we can call natural functioning?

Love to you, Mal

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Anastacia42
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Re: The farther you enter into the truth, the deeper it is

Postby Anastacia42 » Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:33 am

Hi Mal,

Sure, you can call it "natural functioning." I call it being awake, being here & now.
when the attention got lost in the content/story I seemed to lose a kind or presence here and now.
Exactly! You have perceived the point of the exercise. Seeing no self happens only here & now. The rest is all non-existent content of thought, stories, even lies.

Now try this:

Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Post this list.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

Post this list, too.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labeled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body? Describe this.

Relax, have fun. Looking forward to your replies.


Loving,
~ Stacy

"Stop acting so small. You are the universe in ecstatic motion."

~ Rumi

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Bankei1
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Re: The farther you enter into the truth, the deeper it is

Postby Bankei1 » Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:21 pm

Thanks Stacy, I like the look of this exercise...let me work with it and will respond tomorrow...much gratitude, Mal


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