Letting go

[Padmasukha]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I wrote first that I have a Buddhist understanding of this, but do I, really? I've had many years of Buddhist education in this, but if I really understood it, I think I would have fully realised it by now. I've relied too much on learning and too little on practice.

What are you looking for at LU?
For a real conversation which leads to the shift in vision you describe. For reality to come into focus. I feel I need something like the kind of shift that occurs when you look at those 'Magic Eye' pictures and the pattern becomes an image. When you see it, what's been printed on the page hasn't changed, but your focus has changed and what's hidden has come into view. But it was never hidden. You just weren't looking in the right way to see it. Except here I'm current seeing discreet objects, and want to see the pattern :-D Not literally, of course. I realise everything will still look the same, and that it's my understanding that will change. I feel I've come to the point where I'm ready to step off the edge of the cliff into free space. I used to be afraid that I would lose everything or go insane if I opened the door into a direct perception of reality but I'm not afraid of that anymore. And when I realised I wasn't afraid anymore, this website appeared!

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I think I answered that partly already? I guess I want someone to keep asking me for answers until one of those questions hits the right mark and I fully realise what it is that I've read and been taught and guided to for so many years. That 'there is no inherent self.' That those words will transform into meaning instead of just words. That understanding will transform into realisation and knowing.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
25 years of Buddhist study and practice, but with a gap of about 7 years between 2011 and 2018 when I had no Sangha, my practice became less and less and I slipped back into more ordinary patterns of thinking and being. Since Jan 2019 I've been practicing in the Triratna Buddhist community. For anyone this means anything to, I'm a Mitra, and asked for ordination in June 2020. Between 1995 and 2011 I was practicing in a Tibetan Buddhist tradition. Before that I'd looked into Toaism and Zen.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.


Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

I feel I need something like the kind of shift that occurs when you look at those 'Magic Eye' pictures and the pattern becomes an image. When you see it, what's been printed on the page hasn't changed, but your focus has changed and what's hidden has come into view. But it was never hidden. You just weren't looking in the right way to see it.

Yes! It is very much like this.

Loving,

[Padmasukha]

Hi Stacy.
Many thanks for replying and for taking the time to help me. I appreciate it so much.
I would be very happy for you to be my guide. I will do my very best to post every day, and let you know if I can't. I can't foresee any reason why I wouldn't be able to.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

You can call me Steph. I'm in London, UK time.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it.

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

I confirm that I have read these, and that I'm not hoping this process will fix 'me' or my life. I don't feel that either needs 'fixing.' It's the nature of existence that I am interested in.

How will life change?

I guess it may feel freer, more real, more spacious, more 'living in the now.' I've been noticing this changing since I've been focussing on what I've read on this site.

How will you change?

I imagine I might feel less interested in 'my own' wants and needs, and so may possibly be less self-ish, less defensive of my time and space? I imagine my energy might be less obstructed by small worries, concerns, attachment, etc.

What will be different?

My perception of how everything exists. Everything else will be the same, but will appear somehow subtly different. My understanding of how things really exist will be different. I guess I'll know there is no 'I', rather than thinking there is no 'I'.

What is missing?

A full realisation of the lack of self. I've read this stuff over and over for years, - about form being empty and so on. It seems no matter how much I try to pin it down it eludes me. There is nothing to pin down, and that eludes me! Having read through and contemplated on a lot of the stuff on this site, I feel I'm getting closer to the truth of it, but then my focus drifts and it seems further away again. I've been noticing again how my lack of a 'self' can appear more like a kind of see-through amorphous blob of 'no-self' rather than nothing at all. And when I let go of that, my 'I' becomes imputed upon awareness. A lack of perception of self is missing!

With love and much thanks, Steph :-)

[Anastacia42]

Hi Steph

Your quite welcome. I'm near Boulder, Colorado, USA.

Your expectations are mostly reasonable.

Now, what comes up when is read that there is no self, never has been & never will be?

Loving,

[Padmasukha]

Hi Stacy. Thanks for your reply. I live in west Wales. UK.

Your expectations are mostly reasonable.

I am now intrigued as to which of my expectations are not reasonable :-D I'm not expecting an answer to that.

Now, what comes up when is read that there is no self, never has been & never will be?

A lot of things in quick succession! An image of many bodies/lives stretching back into the 'past' and into the 'future,' (like some 1970's TV special effect,) with no selves attached.

Frustration. A thought of 'I KNOW! I KNOW! I'VE HEARD IT A THOUSAND TIMES!' and I still haven't got it.

A thought that with no self in existence, what I impute my 'I' upon is just a collection of parts, then knowing that it's more than that. I think of 'me' as something that possesses those parts (body, thoughts, tendencies, etc).

Recollections of stuff I've read, here and elsewhere, that life is just life-ing; that everything (including all my feelings, thoughts and actions,) is just arising naturally and inevitably, with no director.

A brief sense of relief, that I don't have to 'do' or 'be' 'me' because this life is just happening. But that sense that life is just happening feels slight, fragile, tenuous, like just a glimpse. It's a thought, but there's a glimpse of a knowing there. A bit like when a fragrance or something reminds you of a memory, and there's a fleeting glimpse of the felt sensation of being in that remembered moment.

A brief sense of having been cut loose, like a tethered balloon that's just had the string cut.

Questions about volitions, choices, effort, determination, and so on, which feel like they are deliberate on 'my' part.

Gratitude for your questions.

With love and thanks xxx

[Anastacia42]

Good morning, Steph!

You have *excellent* awareness of what came up. Good. That question checks for fears. Fears & expectations are the only things that keep us from seeing no self.

About the expectations, it's mostly that it's never what you expect. It's always a bit mind blowing, even if your experience is subtle. Mine was intense, every time. But not everyone's is.

I hear you about the frustrations. We'll get you past those. Just don't give up. About half the clients here give up.

A brief sense of having been cut loose, like a tethered balloon that's just had the string cut.

Yes! There's a book called, "The Untethered Soul" that's about seeing no self. No need to read it, but the image is apt.

Questions about volitions, choices, effort, determination, and so on, which feel like they are deliberate on 'my' part.

These will be answered. There are specific pointers for this.

A brief sense of relief, that I don't have to 'do' or 'be' 'me' because this life is just happening. But that sense that life is just happening feels slight, fragile, tenuous, like just a glimpse. It's a thought, but there's a glimpse of a knowing there. A bit like when a fragrance or something reminds you of a memory, and there's a fleeting glimpse of the felt sensation of being in that remembered moment.

That's so beautiful. This is why I think you will SEE. You're already glimpsing it.

Okay, here's some information on HOW to look.


Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Loving,

[Padmasukha]

Hi Stacy. Thanks for your reply.

About the expectations, it's mostly that it's never what you expect. It's always a bit mind blowing, even if your experience is subtle. Mine was intense, every time. But not everyone's is.

Thanks for answering this. I used to be hoping for some kind of major revelation, but I've understood more recently that for many people it's a quieter, more gradual process, and actually that's probably easier to carry forward. And looking at it like that, I see that it's a process that's been unfolding for many years, and that whilst I expect some gasp-inducing leaps forward here, it will continue to unfold way into the future. Also, that unfolding feels kind of inevitable now. I'm not afraid of 'mind-blowing', (I took halucinogenics in my teens and twenties,) but I'm no longer grasping at it.

I hear you about the frustrations. We'll get you past those. Just don't give up. About half the clients here give up.

Thank you. I won't be giving up. This is such an amazing opportunity. If it takes a while, will you keep going until I get it?

Questions about volitions, choices, effort, determination, and so on, which feel like they are deliberate on 'my' part.
These will be answered. There are specific pointers for this.

Great!

That's so beautiful. This is why I think you will SEE. You're already glimpsing it.

Thank you. It's encouraging that you feel some confidence here :-)

Coloured socks.

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

Yes! I was thinking before, that it's like if someone I trusted to be telling the truth had their hands behind their back and said they were holding an orange, I would believe they had an orange, could imagine the orange being there, but would only really know it was there when they showed it to me. And then when I did see it, it might not look like I thought it would. It might be bigger, smaller, be blemished, be cut in half, or painted blue :-D

Direct or Actual Experience is
Seeing, Hearing, Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels), Tasting, Smelling, Thoughts Arising (but not their content).
Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

I am clear about this. Thank you.
Actually, I'm clear about the direct experience, but I'm not completely clear about thoughts arising being direct experience, but not their content. If I see a dusty shelf and think 'That shelf needs dusting,' without the content, what is there? If I relate that to hearing, I understand that hearing is happening, and the sounds are the content, but how could there be hearing without the content (sounds)? Hearing and sounds appear simultaneously. Actually, we can listen to silence. And I can 'think' of nothing, - but actually that's not thought, is it, it's awareness. This is really interesting. Oh, I think I get that now, - it's the appearance of thoughts which is primary. Now I've lost it again. It's 3.37 a.m. I woke up and couldn't go back to sleep. I should probably sleep. Nos da xx

It's 10.00 am now as I edit and post this. I have to go out now, but I'll come back to the thoughts/content question later.
With thanks and love xxx

[Anastacia42]

Good morning

Yes as far as I know, I'll be here.

Hallucigenics can give us an involuntary, kind of skewed glimpse sometimes. They've certainly been used purposefully to help people see, but they are not necessary.

The orange is a good example.

it's the appearance of thoughts which is primary

Yes, correct.

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[Padmasukha]

Hi Stacy.

Yes as far as I know, I'll be here.

That's amazing :-)

'it's the appearance of thoughts which is primary'
Yes, correct.

I feel I haven't quite got this, and will examine it more. (Simply = thought!)

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Waiting for my partner outside the grocery store:
Seeing my phone with your message on it, simply = image/colour
Feeling my body pressing on the bench, simply = sensation
Seeing the parked cars, people passing, simply = image/colour
Feeling the face mask against my skin, simply = sensation
Smelling the car fumes, simply = smell
Hearing people talking, cars passing, seagulls calling, simply = sound
Tasting the mint in my mouth, simply = taste
Thought arising about how soon my partner might arrive, simply = thought

Sitting on my bed at home:
Hearing the stream and birds outside, simply = sound
Thought about what I'm noticing, simply = thought
Seeing what I'm writing, simply = image/colour
Thoughts about it, simply = thought
Feeling my hand on my chin, simply = sensation
Feeling my body against the bed, simply = sensation
Thought about how this is making me focus, simply = thought
Seeing the sunlight on the field and trees, simply = image/colour
Hearing car doors closing, simply = sound
Thoughts about going to make dinner, simply = thought
Feeling the headache I've had all day, simply = sensation
Hearing myself exhale, simply = sound

Thought (that this seems clearer if I think of experiences as image/colour arising; sound arising; thought arising,) simply = thought.
Thought (that I missed out the 'simply' from all my sentences, followed by thoughts about how I could have missed that when I was copying your example,) simply = thought.

Putting all the 'simply's in made the declarations seem simpler!

Interesting to notice how, when I was first observing what was arising, it seemed like feelings are primary, too, because they arise involuntarily, but when I look harder, they do all come in response to thoughts or sensations.


With love and gratitude xxx

[Anastacia42]

Good evening

Your answers are correct. You seem to get it, at least intellectually.

Now try this:

Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Post this list.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

Post this list, too.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labeled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body? Describe this.

Relax, have fun. Looking forward to your replies.


Loving,

[Padmasukha]

Hi Stacy.
Many thanks for your reply.

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

I am sitting in bed
I am hearing the keys click as I type
I am looking at the laptop screen
I am seeing my hands moving
I am hearing my partner move in the next room
I am feeling my legs pressing against other
I am hearing the laptop fan whirring
I am tasting the mint in my mouth
I am feeling the hard mint in my mouth
I am seeing the other things in the room
I am feeling the tension in my arms as I type
I am feeling my face frowning as I concentrate
I am feeling tension around the back of my head
I am feeling my fingers press against my face
I am feeling warmth and buzziness in my hands
I am feeling a tightness in one spot in my ribs
I am feeling the hard edge of the laptop
I am feeling my body hot flashing!
I am seeing the rims of my glasses
I am seeing my hair, my dress, my ring
I am feeling the hard edge of the laptop
I am feeling the tension in my hands
I am feeling a tingling over my scalp
I am feeling my tongue against the back of my teeth
I am feeling my hand against the duvet
...

[Padmasukha]

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

Typing
Sitting in a bed
Holding hands above a keyboard
Speaking
Feeling tension in arms
Seeing hands moving
Thinking that the exercise changes perception
Seeing hands hovering above a keyboard
Seeing a silver ring
Seeing a yellow cord on a wrist
Seeing the black of the keyboard
Feeling sensation in the abdomen
Feeling nails scratching face
Hearing laptop whirring
Feeling curious about the change in perspective
Hearing partner moving around
Hearing floorboards creaking
Hearing footsteps on wooden stairs
Thinking how activity is assumed from sounds
Hearing the kettle boiling
Thinking this activity is about to be interrupted
Feeling tightness across the lower ribs
Feeling tension in the back of the head
Feeling bum pressed against bed
Feeling teeth against the back of lips
Feeling tension in the lips
Seeing other things on the room
...

[Padmasukha]

I have a busy morning, and will get back to the other questions later.
Love and gratitude xxx

[Anastacia42]

Okay!

[Padmasukha]

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labeled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The latter is true. The former is an illusion.

2. What is here without labels?

Awareness and experience. Seeing/images, hearing/sounds, thinking/thoughts, etc. The nameless content still appears when the labels are removed, but it appears more seamless. The array of (e.g.) visual images appear more equal in value; like a field of seeing rather than lots of things. The array of sounds appears more like music, audial elements in a seamless field of sound. Speech is more complicated, though!
I've noticed how action and movement consist of mostly images and sensations. Speaking consists of mostly sensations and sounds. Eating consists of mostly of sensations and tastes.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Effect it. Dropping the 'I' puts some space between, so it becomes a bit like looking at someone else's hands for example. I think 'typing is happening,' and it's like 'yeeeaaaaaah, so it iiiiiis!!!' as though it's something new. It's now appearing like typing is doing itself. Which is in line with what I've read on LU, but now it's starting to actually appear. This is really fascinating! But as soon as I get up, go in another room, and my partner starts talking to me about something, I'm straight back into normal ways of thinking. Then when I start making lunch, some mindfulness returns and I'm back to 'spreading mayo is happening.'
It seems a lot of the sense of 'I' comes from the appearance of moving, acting and interacting.
I find speech the hardest thing to view objectively. It's so hard to not be drawn into the content. I can hear my partner and his colleague talking online downstairs now. I try to think of it as 'sounds are appearing,' but I can't help engaging with the content.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body? Describe this.

Mostly for both exercises I noticed tension arising, linked to concentration, curiosity, scrutiny. When noticing sensations when my eyes are closed, I keep remembering a teacher recently inviting us to observe the sensations in the body and consider how they would appear if we didn't know what shape we were! I notice that a lot of my body has no sensation, and that some parts have strong sensations; pain from the pressure of sitting, etc. With the eyes closed, the sensations appear like areas of light in darkness, and make a peculiar map of the 'body', adding to the sense that it is all illusory!
I think maybe you were looking for something else?

With love and thanks xxx