Path to enlightenment

[Paul70]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That liberation unleashed will guide me to find my path to no self.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking for liberation unleashed to help me find my path that there is no me and understand that I been living my life thinking that I'm a real person. But not just saying it but to really recognise it on a different plain.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect my guide to help me find the gateless gate. Through working together with exercises techniques and me reporting back honestly what I'm experiencing. I expect support from my guide and understanding.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I been doing vipassana meditation for nearly three years now.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Florisness]

Hi Paul,

If you wish, I'd be happy to assist if you like, if not, please let me know.

I expect my guide to help me find the gateless gate.

Ha, instead, in the conversation it might become increasingly clear that there isn't a real self and that there never has been one either. What do you think of that?

Through working together with exercises techniques and me reporting back honestly what I'm experiencing.

Okay, so here is one. So I imagine that your experience might feel and look like, that you're a body, or a person. Please take a moment and investigate what that experience is really like, how would you describe that experience? What is that like, or what does it mean to you, to be a person?


p.s. please learn to use the quote function: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Wishing you well,
Floris

[Paul70]

Hi Floris i would be happy for you to be my guide.

Ha, instead, in the conversation it might become increasingly clear that there isn't a real self and that there never has been one either. What do you think of that?

It seems to be a little scary and exciting as well.

Okay, so here is one. So I imagine that your experience might feel and look like, that you're a body, or a person. Please take a moment and investigate what that experience is really like, how would you describe that experience? What is that like, or what does it mean to you, to be a person?

[Florisness]

Hi Paul,

Ha, seems that you've tried getting a handle of the quote function.

It seems to be a little scary and exciting as well.

Understood. Frankly, it's just like if you'd believe you're santa claus and then hear that really santa claus doesn't exist. You wouldn't evaporate from finding that out of course.

I don't see your reaction on my question though. So here is another one, it's a bit of a deep dive but perhaps you'll grok it:

Could you imagine that tonight you're going to bed and dream that you're a woman in that dream. I say woman, because I've imaged you identify as a man, and want to create a little contrast. Please imagine what that could look like for a second. Try to imagine it very vividly, like a first-person view (so it's not like you see the backside of the body, but rather that you're looking through the eyes) and just like it is happening in your real time/present time. No need to spend a lot of time at it, just a moment will do. Okay, so when you've imaged that, you can proceed reading. I asked you to imagine this, because in our language we often say things like 'I am this, I am that, etc.' and I would like you to get an idea of what 'being something' in our language actually refers to. What experiences did you imagining being there, in order that you'd say 'I'm a woman'? I can imagine you could have imagined feeling a little different, that there might be a different self-image and thoughts of a past, maybe the voice would be more feminine sounding than usual, maybe you sometimes see a womanhand or so in your visual field. Frankly, I could imagine that the self-image/past thoughts actually contributed most to the idea/sense of being a woman, what do you think? In any case, of whatever you imaged, or could imagine, you might agree that of all the things you imaged to create a woman in your imagination, could be called like a sort of 'womanness'. But.. was there an actual woman there? Did the things you associate with 'being a woman', the womanness, constitute an actual entity that could be called a woman? Perhaps you agree that that is not true, because you could for example change the dream so that you'd now refer to it as being a horse or so, and no actual woman died there. There might have been what we call womanness, but not an actual woman, right? So we may use language to say things like 'I was a woman in my dream', and it is fine to keep this use of language going, but it's not the truth of the matter, right? Okay, so why this exercise, why is this significant? Well, because isn't what you're experiencing right now, what people sometimes refer to as reality, or waking life, not just the same situation as the dream? I asked you to imagine that you were dreaming, and frankly of course you weren't even really dreaming, but I could just have well asked if you could imagine that your experience right now was just transforming like you're becoming a woman. The experience is the same either way, either if you call it dream or waking life or whatever. So.. now in your present experience there might be a voice, certain feelings, thoughts, perceptions that you might associated with being a man, and even more so with being a biological entity, a self, a person, a you, but not an actual entity as such, is there? Perhaps we could say there is a sort of Paulness to the experience, but without an actual Paul?

Happy to see your response,
Floris

[Paul70]

Hi Floris i did answer the last question you ask me but it looks like you only received half of my message, so i will answer it again and then look at the latest question

Okay, so here is one. So I imagine that your experience might feel and look like, that you're a body, or a person. Please take a moment and investigate what that experience is really like, how would you describe that experience? What is that like, or what does it mean to you, to be a person?

okay lets try again it feels like i own a body and i'm in control of the body and have 5 senses and i feel a live and connected to the world. What that means to me, it means that i feel that i belong, it feels like i'm going to live forever. But we know that is not true and the body and mind will die.

i'm now going to look at the next question Floris about being a woman. funny thing is my mom did name me Pauline when i was born, she really wanted a girl.

thanking you Paul

[Florisness]

Hi Paul,

Good hearing from you again. I see you don't have quite a handle on the quote function yet, perhaps you could try only selecting the text you want to respond to (my text), and then press the "Quote" button.

okay lets try again it feels like i own a body and i'm in control of the body and have 5 senses and i feel a live and connected to the world. What that means to me, it means that i feel that i belong, it feels like i'm going to live forever. But we know that is not true and the body and mind will die.

Okay, good stuff. Gives plenty to work with.

i'm now going to look at the next question Floris about being a woman. funny thing is my mom did name me Pauline when i was born, she really wanted a girl.

I'll wait with asking you more questions until I see your reply at the other questions about being a woman. Ha, well my mother also told me she would have liked a girl, but that she knew I was a boy.

Happy to see your response on the other part,
Wishing you a good day,
Floris

[Paul70]

Hi Floris i think i mastered the quotes so here we go

Could you imagine that tonight you're going to bed and dream that you're a woman in that dream. I say woman, because I've imaged you identify as a man, and want to create a little contrast. Please imagine what that could look like for a second. Try to imagine it very vividly, like a first-person view (so it's not like you see the backside of the body, but rather that you're looking through the eyes) and just like it is happening in your real time/present time. No need to spend a lot of time at it, just a moment will do. Okay, so when you've imaged that, you can proceed reading. I asked you to imagine this, because in our language we often say things like 'I am this, I am that, etc.' and I would like you to get an idea of what 'being something' in our language actually refers to. What experiences did you imagining being there, in order that you'd say 'I'm a woman'? I can imagine you could have imagined feeling a little different, that there might be a different self-image and thoughts of a past, maybe the voice would be more feminine sounding than usual, maybe you sometimes see a womanhand or so in your visual field. Frankly, I could imagine that the self-image/past thoughts actually contributed most to the idea/sense of being a woman, what do you think? In any case, of whatever you imaged, or could imagine, you might agree that of all the things you imaged to create a woman in your imagination, could be called like a sort of 'womanness'. But.. was there an actual woman there? Did the things you associate with 'being a woman', the womanness, constitute an actual entity that could be called a woman? Perhaps you agree that that is not true, because you could for example change the dream so that you'd now refer to it as being a horse or so, and no actual woman died there. There might have been what we call womanness, but not an actual woman, right? So we may use language to say things like 'I was a woman in my dream', and it is fine to keep this use of language going, but it's not the truth of the matter, right? Okay, so why this exercise, why is this significant? Well, because isn't what you're experiencing right now, what people sometimes refer to as reality, or waking life, not just the same situation as the dream? I asked you to imagine that you were dreaming, and frankly of course you weren't even really dreaming, but I could just have well asked if you could imagine that your experience right now was just transforming like you're becoming a woman. The experience is the same either way, either if you call it dream or waking life or whatever. So.. now in your present experience there might be a voice, certain feelings, thoughts, perceptions that you might associated with being a man, and even more so with being a biological entity, a self, a person, a you, but not an actual entity as such, is there? Perhaps we could say there is a sort of Paulness to the experience, but without an actual Paul?

Okay imagined i was a woman, everything about me was a woman, voice body and mind. Straight away i felt different, everything around me had not changed. But i felt more comfortable in the body and more confident. I then took it a bit further and imagined going outside. I felt it easier to connect to the outside world taking to people and being more open than being in a mans body. I felt more like a mother figure and everything seemed a nicer place. I know this was imagined in my mind and it was not real. In the real world everything we do has consequences and comes back to the biological entity i'm in.

thanking you Paul

[Florisness]

Hi Paul,

Thank you for your reply, and yes it looks like you mastered the quotes:-)

Okay, nice description of your imaginations, thank you. Did you also look at the questions in the later part of the exercise? I hoped you would answer those and am curious to your thoughts on them. Could you still? It’s easier for me to get this thing moving forward if I can see your answers to those.

Wishing you well,
Floris

[Paul70]

Hi Floris i do suffer with dyslexia, so long questions i might read wrong. i try again.


Could you imagine that tonight you're going to bed and dream that you're a woman in that dream. I say woman, because I've imaged you identify as a man, and want to create a little contrast. Please imagine what that could look like for a second. Try to imagine it very vividly, like a first-person view (so it's not like you see the backside of the body, but rather that you're looking through the eyes) and just like it is happening in your real time/present time. No need to spend a lot of time at it, just a moment will do. Okay, so when you've imaged that, you can proceed reading. I asked you to imagine this, because in our language we often say things like 'I am this, I am that, etc.' and I would like you to get an idea of what 'being something' in our language actually refers to. What experiences did you imagining being there, in order that you'd say 'I'm a woman'? I can imagine you could have imagined feeling a little different, that there might be a different self-image and thoughts of a past, maybe the voice would be more feminine sounding than usual, maybe you sometimes see a womanhand or so in your visual field. Frankly, I could imagine that the self-image/past thoughts actually contributed most to the idea/sense of being a woman, what do you think? In any case, of whatever you imaged, or could imagine, you might agree that of all the things you imaged to create a woman in your imagination, could be called like a sort of 'womanness'. But.. was there an actual woman there? Did the things you associate with 'being a woman', the womanness, constitute an actual entity that could be called a woman? Perhaps you agree that that is not true, because you could for example change the dream so that you'd now refer to it as being a horse or so, and no actual woman died there. There might have been what we call womanness, but not an actual woman, right? So we may use language to say things like 'I was a woman in my dream', and it is fine to keep this use of language going, but it's not the truth of the matter, right? Okay, so why this exercise, why is this significant? Well, because isn't what you're experiencing right now, what people sometimes refer to as reality, or waking life, not just the same situation as the dream? I asked you to imagine that you were dreaming, and frankly of course you weren't even really dreaming, but I could just have well asked if you could imagine that your experience right now was just transforming like you're becoming a woman. The experience is the same either way, either if you call it dream or waking life or whatever. So.. now in your present experience there might be a voice, certain feelings, thoughts, perceptions that you might associated with being a man, and even more so with being a biological entity, a self, a person, a you, but not an actual entity as such, is there? Perhaps we could say there is a sort of Paulness to the experience, but without an actual Paul?

But was there an actual woman there.

no there was no women there it was my imagination.

Is there a sort of Paulness to the experience, but without an actual Paul.

You could say that, but Paul is was always in the back ground due to the power of the mind not letting go of the body and self.
i hope this is better. i did struggle a bit to pick out the questions out of one big question. if it helps to give you a better picture of me. Paul is a 50 year old male who been meditating for about 6 years and practice vipassana meditation. through vipassana meditation Paul has unprogrammed a lot of information which was put in his mind and knows is not true. Paul is looking for a conscious shift in the mind to see no self. I know Paul is a male because thats a physical side but beyond the physical i know that conscious has no sex type.

thanking you Paul

[Florisness]

Hi there Paul,

i do suffer with dyslexia, so long questions i might read wrong. i try again.

Okay, understood. I see you didn't quite reply to the questions in the way I intended, so I'll try making the exercises and sentences as simple as I can. I might fail slightly, so bare with me too:)

You could say that, but Paul is was always in the back ground due to the power of the mind not letting go of the body and self.

What is this Paul that is always in the background? Could it be a thought? A Paulthought?

Paul is a 50 year old male who been meditating for about 6 years and practice vipassana meditation. through vipassana meditation Paul has unprogrammed a lot of information which was put in his mind and knows is not true.

Okay, thank you for sharing and good to see that vipassana helped. So you are a male? I undestand that you might not have understood my previous exercise fully, so I'll try again: In your experience right now, can you find an actual male thing/entity? Can you find something you can point to and say 'this here, this experience here, is I, the male entity'? Maybe you can find maleness, but no actual male?

Paul is looking for a conscious shift in the mind to see no self.

Understood. And to see no self, don't you think that's the same as seeing there isn't such a thing as a Paul? You think Paul can see there is no Paul, no self? What do you think of that?

okay lets try again it feels like i own a body and i'm in control of the body and have 5 senses and i feel a live and connected to the world. What that means to me, it means that i feel that i belong, it feels like i'm going to live forever. But we know that is not true and the body and mind will die.

Thank you. In the first sentence you say you own a body, so, wouldn't that mean you are actually not a/the body? If you own something, you can't be it, right?


Kind regards,
Floris

[Paul70]

Hi Floris thank you for being understanding. the question lay out is amazing and i can understand them a lot better.

What is this Paul that is always in the background? Could it be a thought? A Paulthought?

yes just a thought in the mind.

In your experience right now, can you find an actual male thing/entity? Can you find something you can point to and say 'this here, this experience here, is I, the male entity'? Maybe you can find maleness, but no actual male

No male entity and nothing to point at. no maleness only what the mind has been told that i'm a male, but no sense of male after that point. If Paul was born with out having human contact, he would know nothing about what sex he was any case. Its only a human thing that put things in boxes.

Understood. And to see no self, don't you think that's the same as seeing there isn't such a thing as a Paul? You think Paul can see there is no Paul, no self? What do you think of that?

What a intresting question. I never thought of that. all Paul has never thought of that. Well Paul is a solid mass. But we also know through science we are all light or energy vibrating at different frequencies. Paul can see Paul through a mirror. But Paul probably can't see Paul without a mirror or without a mind. But the outside world see's Paul which makes Paul feel like there is a Paul. I'm going to ponder on this question a lot longer and self enquire. What lovely question.

Thank you. In the first sentence you say you own a body, so, wouldn't that mean you are actually not a/the body? If you own something, you can't be it, right?

yes i'm not an actual body, if i own a body. But the mind and body gives us sensations which makes us believe we are alive and that probably applies to all living things.

Thanking you Paul

[Florisness]

Hi Paul,

thank you for being understanding. the question lay out is amazing and i can understand them a lot better.

:-)

yes just a thought in the mind.

nice!

No male entity and nothing to point at. no maleness only what the mind has been told that i'm a male, but no sense of male after that point. If Paul was born with out having human contact, he would know nothing about what sex he was any case. Its only a human thing that put things in boxes.

love it.

What a intresting question. I never thought of that. all Paul has never thought of that. Well Paul is a solid mass. But we also know through science we are all light or energy vibrating at different frequencies. Paul can see Paul through a mirror. But Paul probably can't see Paul without a mirror or without a mind. But the outside world see's Paul which makes Paul feel like there is a Paul. I'm going to ponder on this question a lot longer and self enquire. What lovely question.

Glad you like it. When you say the word 'Paul', what do you feel that word 'Paul' means? And can you find an actual thing called Paul? Could it be the same as with the idea of being a body? So.. there seems to be Paulness, but not an actual thing/entity called Paul?

Here a short exercise for you. Please witness what's going (including your thoughts) when you do the exercise: pick a hand and wiggle your fingers with that hand. Now contemplate while wiggling the fingers:
- Can you find an I/self/entity doing the wiggling?
- How was it chosen to pick the hand is used?
- Can you tell how the fingers are moving?

Good day,
Floris

[Paul70]

Hi Floris hope you had a lovely day and again thanking you for your time and help.

Glad you like it. When you say the word 'Paul', what do you feel that word 'Paul' means? And can you find an actual thing called Paul? Could it be the same as with the idea of being a body? So.. there seems to be Paulness, but not an actual thing/entity called Paul?

could not find Paul. Paul is a name and only a name and when i say Paul i mean the physical body. I'm attached to the physical body through its five senses. Without the five senses i would not be connected to the body. But the question also said does Paul recognise Paul. So it got me thinking is there a second entity. Does the mind recognise its self. I meditated at that thought. The answer i got was no the mind does not recognise it self. Its a function which has been programmed from my parents. They told the mind and body, it has a name and passed on information to give Paul an identity. Then through school the mind gets more of identity. What do i mean by identity. my colour my sex my country my politics my fears my hates my loves my religion and so on. Yes there seems to be Paulness beyond the mind. But nothing i can clasp.

Here a short exercise for you. Please witness what's going (including your thoughts) when you do the exercise: pick a hand and wiggle your fingers with that hand. Now contemplate while wiggling the fingers:
- Can you find an I/self/entity doing the wiggling?
- How was it chosen to pick the hand is used?
- Can you tell how the fingers are moving?

I picked my hand straight away as soon as read the exercise. It was more like a reflex of the mind picking my strongest hand which is left and started wiggling the fingers. There was no self doing. It was more like you had control because you put the idea in my head. No could not tell how the fingers where wiggling, unless i looked at them. The exercise reminds me about the person who lost there leg and a year later, they can feel there toes itching all something like that.

thanking you Paul

[Florisness]

Hi Floris hope you had a lovely day and again thanking you for your time and help.

Hi Paul, thank you and you're very welcome. I hope you have a good day too

could not find Paul. Paul is a name and only a name and when i say Paul i mean the physical body. I'm attached to the physical body through its five senses. Without the five senses i would not be connected to the body. But the question also said does Paul recognise Paul. So it got me thinking is there a second entity. Does the mind recognise its self. I meditated at that thought. The answer i got was no the mind does not recognise it self. Its a function which has been programmed from my parents. They told the mind and body, it has a name and passed on information to give Paul an identity. Then through school the mind gets more of identity. What do i mean by identity. my colour my sex my country my politics my fears my hates my loves my religion and so on. Yes there seems to be Paulness beyond the mind. But nothing i can clasp.

Okay, thank you. So please try the following, and feel free to make it more suitable to you: Sit or lay down, close your eyes, relax. Let go of all thoughts of any worries or concerns for the moment, let go of thoughts of a you, of a Paul, of a body and be just be still. Don't refer to any thoughts and answer this question: is there any indication, or is anything suggesting, that there is a body there? Maybe there are sensations, maybe there are thoughts about a body, but is there an actual body in the experience? Or could that be only an idea, a concept?
I understand that if the eyes are open, appearances can be experienced that can be labeled as a body. But maybe those are only appearances? Just like in a dream?

I picked my hand straight away as soon as read the exercise. It was more like a reflex of the mind picking my strongest hand which is left and started wiggling the fingers. There was no self doing. It was more like you had control because you put the idea in my head. No could not tell how the fingers where wiggling, unless i looked at them. The exercise reminds me about the person who lost there leg and a year later, they can feel there toes itching all something like that.

Sounds good:-)

Wishing you well,
Floris

[Paul70]

Good afternoon Floris my day is going well so far and i looking forward to training later.

Okay, thank you. So please try the following, and feel free to make it more suitable to you: Sit or lay down, close your eyes, relax. Let go of all thoughts of any worries or concerns for the moment, let go of thoughts of a you, of a Paul, of a body and be just be still. Don't refer to any thoughts and answer this question: is there any indication, or is anything suggesting, that there is a body there? Maybe there are sensations, maybe there are thoughts about a body, but is there an actual body in the experience? Or could that be only an idea, a concept?

Okay here i go. I layed down on the sofa close my eyes, got comfortable and stilled my mind [ no thought}. I'm quite good at doing this and very rare i have chatty mind. If i do get chatty mind i just watch and chatty mind goes. When i come out of this state i feel refreshed today i was in that state for over 1hr but it felt like five minutes. there is no body there, no mind there and no sensation there ever. I would like to say it was black but it was not even black. I don't know if it has a colour. But when i come out of this state, the mind tries to find answers and when i think deeper about it with the mind, i start to have sick feelings in the middle area of my body or sensations in the head like a dull pain.

I understand that if the eyes are open, appearances can be experienced that can be labeled as a body. But maybe those are only appearances? Just like in a dream?

Yes when the eyes are open i see a body. The only way i can say this is like a dream state is to come above the mind. Like a dream state we have different characters. So this is how i put this world into dream state. every day is a new day so i become a new person. I was unborn, then Paul was born and had five senses. then i was a infant, then toddler, then child, teenager and young adult with a identity and then a adult. I seen all these different people over the years in a mirror and the mind makes it one person.

thanking you Paul