Enlightenment is right NOW

[chives90]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
A self is an internal entity separate from everything 'else', enlightenment teaches that no such entity exist and is an illusion created by the ego mind which contracts universal mind on the 'physical organism'. This illusory state of consciousness creates the illusion that there is a separate thinker/ knower.

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to discover what is true, If my life is lived according to falsehood then I will be forever unfilled endlessly trying to change my experience to match to how the self wants it to be. I would like to find out what life is like on the other side of the duality curtain to aid my transition and guidance on how to get there.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Insight into where the mind is getting stuck and what needs to be let go of and how that can be done to stop the self mind from perpetuating itself. Also insight on the many traps that mind gets stuck in along the way.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I haven't been serious up until now with some practice over the last year engaging in self inquiry through sitting and questioning what am i. I have had non dual glimpses on psychedelics in which I self remembered what I really was briefly.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
9

[Florisness]

Hi chives,

A self is an internal entity separate from everything 'else', enlightenment teaches that no such entity exist and is an illusion created by the ego mind which contracts universal mind on the 'physical organism'. This illusory state of consciousness creates the illusion that there is a separate thinker/ knower.

I liked this part, and think that's very well put. I've read the rest of your text and can partly relate and resonate with your desires and story.

If you wish to proceed (with me), then please learn to use the quote function: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660. I'm confident that we can clear things up and look forward seeing your reply.

Wishing you well,
Floris

[chives90]

If you wish to proceed (with me), then please learn to use the quote function: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660. I'm confident that we can clear things up and look forward seeing your reply.

Wishing you well,
Floris

Hi Floris

Thanks for your reply and your help, I'm quite confident that I can use the quote function and look forward to this self enquiry with you.

Kind regards

Chives

[Florisness]

Hi Chives,

Happy to see that you've responded.

Thanks for your reply and your help, I'm quite confident that I can use the quote function and look forward to this self enquiry with you.

Hmm, it seems that confidence might not be enough at times ;-)

A self is an internal entity separate from everything 'else'

Okay, I think this is a good starting point. So if could take a moment, sit down, relax, close your eyes and take a look at if you can find this internal entity separate from everything else, than what do you find? And what do you make of that (your findings)?

Floris

[chives90]

Okay, I think this is a good starting point. So if could take a moment, sit down, relax, close your eyes and take a look at if you can find this internal entity separate from everything else, than what do you find? And what do you make of that (your findings

This internal entity is not a thing I can see or touch like I can see and touch the (body/ objects etc), its a sense of being separate. I can't feel inside of things in my surroundings therefore Identification is matched with the body because of bodily sensations and because there is private thoughts and emotions that other humans dont have access to. There is also a story that this internal world of perception, feeling and thinking belongs to an individual that was born and has a family and a life history and personal attributes etc.

[Florisness]

Hi Chives,

Thank you, that's a really useful response, partly because there are many good points in there which we can now investigate.

This internal entity is not a thing I can see or touch like I can see and touch the (body/ objects etc), its a sense of being separate.

Is this sense of being separate a person/separate entity, or an indication that there is one, or is it just a sense/feeling? Please give me your thoughts.

I can't feel inside of things in my surroundings therefore Identification is matched with the body because of bodily sensations and because there is private thoughts and emotions that other humans dont have access to.

okay good. (Just to be clear, I'm just going to talk about your experience now.) And what if, just for the sake of getting a different perspective on that we take a bit of a small step back, and say what you experience are thoughts, sensations, sights, sounds, smells, tastes. Agreed, yes? The surroundings you experience, are pretty much either sights, or sounds, yes? So now, do other humans have access to your sights or sounds, or they have their own sights and sounds? So with this in mind, could you rethink what you wrote and write about it again (like another version/try of what you already wrote here)?

There is also a story that this internal world of perception, feeling and thinking belongs to an individual that was born and has a family and a life history and personal attributes etc.

Wow, really love it how accurately you define/describe the assumptions about what it's like to be a self. And can you find any evidence or anything that suggests that feeling and thinking belongs to an individual that was born, personal attributes and all that? And again, can you find anything that these feelings and thoughts should/would then belong to (for example the individual)?

Looking forward to your reaction,
Floris

[chives90]

Hi Floris, thanks for your response

Is this sense of being separate a person/separate entity, or an indication that there is one, or is it just a sense/feeling? Please give me your thought

It feels like an indication as there is reference to me. Everyone that I know or get to know refers to this body as chives therefore this mind as no other way of thinking of the body other than being chives and how they relate to it. I don't know how others relate to the world, but I know how this organism does.

okay good. (Just to be clear, I'm just going to talk about your experience now.) And what if, just for the sake of getting a different perspective on that we take a bit of a small step back, and say what you experience are thoughts, sensations, sights, sounds, smells, tastes. Agreed, yes? The surroundings you experience, are pretty much either sights, or sounds, yes? So now, do other humans have access to your sights or sounds, or they have their own sights and sounds? So with this in mind, could you rethink what you wrote and write about it again (like another version/try of what you already wrote here)?

Others don't have access to these thoughts as noone reacts to anything i think or imagine, If someone asks me about an experience its because they didnt experience it themselves, since I can only experience things from this body. I would say other people have their own internal experiences as they also tell me about whats going on in their mind and tell me about their experiences that I haven't experienced.

Wow, really love it how accurately you define/describe the assumptions about what it's like to be a self. And can you find any evidence or anything that suggests that feeling and thinking belongs to an individual that was born, personal attributes and all that? And again, can you find anything that these feelings and thoughts should/would then belong to (for example the individual)?

Everybody in my environment confirmed that I was separate they gave me a name and treated me a certain way based on how I turned out, If i was sensitive they would be nicer to me or bully me depending on how they wanted to relate to me. I feel that I was born because their comes a point in my past where I can't go any further back

Many thanks

Chives

[Florisness]

Hi Chives,

I'm happy to see and read your response. A note I'd like to make; that when I say or ask is there any indication, or anything suggesting, that X is true/the case in our talk, that in my mind that doesn't refer to what anybody has said, or believes, or even what my own beliefs/thoughts say, but what the life/experience you're having right now 'says'. So, some of the questions I'll re-ask and ask if you can check it with your experience. If that doesn't make sense in any way, please say. Btw, I think we're starting really good, so let's continue.

It feels like an indication as there is reference to me. Everyone that I know or get to know refers to this body as chives therefore this mind as no other way of thinking of the body other than being chives and how they relate to it. I don't know how others relate to the world, but I know how this organism does.

Thank you, and yes I can imagine that you've pretty much always been thought of to be that body. So it's my hope that we can correct this a little bit in our talk.

Others don't have access to these thoughts as noone reacts to anything i think or imagine, If someone asks me about an experience its because they didnt experience it themselves, since I can only experience things from this body. I would say other people have their own internal experiences as they also tell me about whats going on in their mind and tell me about their experiences that I haven't experienced.

Yes, understood. What I wanted to get at is, that you said in a prior message that you have your own experiences such as sensations and thoughts that others don't have access to. My point there was that others actually also don't have access to your sights and sounds either. I imagine you must be what we could call 'sitting in a room' right now, and so if you look around there, you might have the idea that others also experience that room. However, what you refer to as that room is just what you're seeing. People might externalize what they're seeing as it's something that exists independed of them, but that's actually not quite accurate. And what you're seeing, that part of your experience, others don't see (they don't see your experience). So actually everything you're experiencing is a private experience, so to speak. You get what I mean?

Everybody in my environment confirmed that I was separate they gave me a name and treated me a certain way based on how I turned out, If i was sensitive they would be nicer to me or bully me depending on how they wanted to relate to me. I feel that I was born because their comes a point in my past where I can't go any further back

Okay, thank you. I'd like to ask you to do this question again, and now confirm it with your own experience. For example, can you find any experience, can you pinpoint any experience, and say 'this thing right here, is the individual'?

All the best,
Floris

[chives90]

Hi Floris

Yes, understood. What I wanted to get at is, that you said in a prior message that you have your own experiences such as sensations and thoughts that others don't have access to. My point there was that others actually also don't have access to your sights and sounds either. I imagine you must be what we could call 'sitting in a room' right now, and so if you look around there, you might have the idea that others also experience that room. However, what you refer to as that room is just what you're seeing. People might externalize what they're seeing as it's something that exists independed of them, but that's actually not quite accurate. And what you're seeing, that part of your experience, others don't see (they don't see your experience). So actually everything you're experiencing is a private experience, so to speak. You get what I mean?

That is very true You could say my own phenomenal experience is my own private universe, but I see others that look similar to me and they also intersect my universe as they can see what i see and hear what I hear externally, or if they touch something I touch they can also report the same sensation. I would say their universe runs parallel to mine and can experience the same phenomena when they clash, although it might be experienced slightly differently depending on the conditions of their phenomenal bubble or universe, for example colour blind people have limited shades of colour that I dont have because their universe is different but, we both have an experience that is similar enough that we can cross reference our realities to define an objective one

Okay, thank you. I'd like to ask you to do this question again, and now confirm it with your own experience. For example, can you find any experience, can you pinpoint any experience, and say 'this thing right here, is the individual'

I can't seem to refer to myself without referring to a story, pain is arising therefore I want this experience to be different, pleasure is arising therefore I want this to continue. I think about my experience and how it relates to my organism what this means for the organism is it good or bad, do i need to improve or do something differently. Since I am this way i have to behave this way to compensate for that. I'm not good enough because I did this, I'm a bad person because i did this etc.

Many thanks

Chives

[Florisness]

That is very true You could say my own phenomenal experience is my own private universe, but I see others that look similar to me and they also intersect my universe as they can see what i see and hear what I hear externally, or if they touch something I touch they can also report the same sensation. I would say their universe runs parallel to mine and can experience the same phenomena when they clash, although it might be experienced slightly differently depending on the conditions of their phenomenal bubble or universe, for example colour blind people have limited shades of colour that I dont have because their universe is different but, we both have an experience that is similar enough that we can cross reference our realities to define an objective one

That's great, yes. Just for the sake of keeping on the subject of no-self I'll not go further into this now.

I can't seem to refer to myself without referring to a story, pain is arising therefore I want this experience to be different, pleasure is arising therefore I want this to continue. I think about my experience and how it relates to my organism what this means for the organism is it good or bad, do i need to improve or do something differently. Since I am this way i have to behave this way to compensate for that. I'm not good enough because I did this, I'm a bad person because i did this etc.

And how has it come to be that these thoughts or beliefs about being able to be either a good or bad person come from? Could it be because of other peoples judgements, that probably begun in childhood by parents?

You say that you can't refer to yourself without referring to a story. Is it true that what you think you are IS that story? And are there feelings, that might have a sort 'me-ness' feel in the body, related to these stories? And is that story actually you, or is that story actually not more you than any other story in your mind?

All the best,
Floris

[chives90]

And how has it come to be that these thoughts or beliefs about being able to be either a good or bad person come from? Could it be because of other peoples judgements, that probably begun in childhood by parents?

You say that you can't refer to yourself without referring to a story. Is it true that what you think you are IS that story? And are there feelings, that might have a sort 'me-ness' feel in the body, related to these stories? And is that story actually you, or is that story actually not more you than any other story in your mind?

I don't feel like i am the content of the story but the one that it is attributed to and living it, I'm on a timeline and things happen to this organism and this organism achieves and attains and behaves in a certain way. This story isnt fixed if i talk through my problems with friends or family or a therapist , they can recontextualise it and a different narrative is told. This story is a survival strategy if i let go of it then something awful could happen, I could repeat some of the selfish things ive done that I feel bad about

I wouldn't know who or what I was without peoples judgements, If I was the only human on earth there would be no story as the story is needed to relate to people and a sense of how my actions and qualities effect others so I can handle or get along with other people in a more effective way in the future. If I feel guilty its because maybe i acted selfishly or inappropriately. If i'm angry its because i was mistreated. If im sad its because my relationships with others haven't worked out.

Without a story I don't know what decision would be made, would this organism be able to keep itself safe? would it end up homeless because I didn't listen to the story as to how to behave. This organism could even become hitler. The story is safety, its anticipating whats coming next. This story is who I am and how I navigate life, at least thats how it appears.


During peak psychedelic experiences the story disappeared and immense fear raced through the body, but before the non existing character could stop it...... it died. Psychedelic experiences are only temporary glimpses though

Many thanks

Chives

[Florisness]

Hi Chives,

I don't feel like i am the content of the story but the one that it is attributed to and living it, I'm on a timeline and things happen to this organism and this organism achieves and attains and behaves in a certain way. This story isnt fixed if i talk through my problems with friends or family or a therapist, they can recontextualise it and a different narrative is told.

Okay. If I make ask you to do a little exercise: please take a moment and sit or lay down quitely and close your eyes. Then, ask yourself or investigate, if there is anything there that could be called an organism, or something that indicates that there is such an organism. I understand, of course, there might be thoughts and/or assumptions, that may talk about an organism. But if you, just for now, would just check this with your own experience, than what do you find and also what do you think about your findings? For example, maybe the attention goes towards the space where sensations abide, and thoughts may come up about there being a body there, but what is actually experientially found? I might give my thoughts on that, but first would like to hear your interpretation.

This story is a survival strategy if i let go of it then something awful could happen, I could repeat some of the selfish things ive done that I feel bad about.

I would agree that sometimes we make choices and then afterwards look back and don't like what we did. Then we may want to do it different, and be for example a little more kind next time. I would think that when you let go of identifying with a story that is weighing you down, you would actually feel much better, and then feel much freer to express yourself in a way that resonates with your 'natural state', and you wouldn't really or maybe not at all do things that would feel not right to you. 'right' and 'wrong' are judgements from the mind, and I would suggest you don't need those in order to be kind, caring, etc.

If I feel guilty its because maybe i acted selfishly or inappropriately. If i'm angry its because i was mistreated. If im sad its because my relationships with others haven't worked out.

These statements say that the way you feel is caused by outside situations. Does it resonate when I say that what you feel isn't caused by outside situations but rather by the way you think about it/see the situation, and that you can choose the way you think/relate to the situation and thus control the way you feel?

Without a story I don't know what decision would be made, would this organism be able to keep itself safe? would it end up homeless because I didn't listen to the story as to how to behave. This organism could even become hitler. The story is safety, its anticipating whats coming next. This story is who I am and how I navigate life, at least thats how it appears.

Or maybe Hitler did the things he did, because of all the stories he had spinning in his mind? Did you ever see a baby (no stories there) that expressed a lot of anger or violence? I would suggest to not worry about not identifying so much with the story. This isn't about vanishing your memories, but rather to get a little distance from it. Don't you think that would feel lighter?

Wishing you well,
Floris

[chives90]

Hi Floris

Okay. If I make ask you to do a little exercise: please take a moment and sit or lay down quitely and close your eyes. Then, ask yourself or investigate, if there is anything there that could be called an organism, or something that indicates that there is such an organism. I understand, of course, there might be thoughts and/or assumptions, that may talk about an organism. But if you, just for now, would just check this with your own experience, than what do you find and also what do you think about your findings? For example, maybe the attention goes towards the space where sensations abide, and thoughts may come up about there being a body there, but what is actually experientially found? I might give my thoughts on that, but first would like to hear your interpretation.

The identity of being an organism exists within thought, when I dream the mind dissolves and there is no thought of being a human just dream appearances. The bodily sensations aren't me but, the mind says they belong to me, i'm feeling them. The mind creates the sense of being a permanent organism by remembering the past and trying to predict the future.

I would agree that sometimes we make choices and then afterwards look back and don't like what we did. Then we may want to do it different, and be for example a little more kind next time. I would think that when you let go of identifying with a story that is weighing you down, you would actually feel much better, and then feel much freer to express yourself in a way that resonates with your 'natural state', and you wouldn't really or maybe not at all do things that would feel not right to you. 'right' and 'wrong' are judgements from the mind, and I would suggest you don't need those in order to be kind, caring, etc.

Indeed, the mind does not like not knowing though , these judgements and stories hold my reality together. Taking a leap of faith and trusting reality would free me from being this restricted person that only filters how to behave through a narrative. I'd say the narrative does more harm than good, what does the mind know about such matters?

These statements say that the way you feel is caused by outside situations. Does it resonate when I say that what you feel isn't caused by outside situations but rather by the way you think about it/see the situation, and that you can choose the way you think/relate to the situation and thus control the way you feel?

Its definitely a choice, and I know it makes me miserable and dysfunctional to a degree and that my mind would be peaceful if i let go of it, but the hard part is unwiring all of the positions that have been given to me by society and peers. The mind believes its wrong to let go, its wrong to not be defensive when people try to push my buttons and intimidate me. Without the mind I would be at peace but the trade off would be I would have to be willing to experience anything. I seem to like beliefs even if its all incorrect as i may behave differently in a situation. I don't know what lies outside of beliefs and thoughts and that is scary.

Or maybe Hitler did the things he did, because of all the stories he had spinning in his mind? Did you ever see a baby (no stories there) that expressed a lot of anger or violence? I would suggest to not worry about not identifying so much with the story. This isn't about vanishing your memories, but rather to get a little distance from it. Don't you think that would feel lighter?

It is definitely story telling that would make me more likely to be angry or violent, but even with angry thoughts when it comes to facing the issue the mind gives up on the aggressive option. I guess the mind just likes imagining scenarios just in case the worst case scenario happens, its rehearsal. I live in an imaginary future and past.



Kind regards

Chives

[Florisness]

Good day to you Chives,

The identity of being an organism exists within thought, when I dream the mind dissolves and there is no thought of being a human just dream appearances. The bodily sensations aren't me but, the mind says they belong to me, i'm feeling them. The mind creates the sense of being a permanent organism by remembering the past and trying to predict the future.

Great. You say thoughts say the sensations belong to you, because you feel them. Could that actually be just as arbitrary as seeing sounds belong to you, because you're hearing them?
Just to make sure this is clear here is a sort of exercise. Could you imagine that you're dreaming and being, the opposite sex, a woman, in that dream. I say woman, because (I'm actually not sure) I've imagined you're a man. After you've imagined shortly on what that experience would be like, my question is: what does that mean, being a woman? What experiences are you imagining being there, in order that we say 'I'm a woman'? I can imagine you'd imagine feeling a little different, that there might be a different self-image, maybe the voice would be different, maybe you sometimes see a womanhand or so in your visual field. These are things we associate with being a woman, right. But is there an actual woman there, is any of these things you're imagining with womanness an actual woman entity, or do these experiences associated with womanness combine to create an actual entity? That would mean that certain experiences combines are an actual entity. And isn't what you're experiencing right now, not just the same. There might be a voice, certain feelings, thoughts, perceptions that are associated with being a Chives/person/entity, but not an actual entity as such?

It is definitely story telling that would make me more likely to be angry or violent, but even with angry thoughts when it comes to facing the issue the mind gives up on the aggressive option. I guess the mind just likes imagining scenarios just in case the worst case scenario happens, its rehearsal. I live in an imaginary future and past.

Yes. The mind can prefer clinging to negative or false ideas, just because .. heck, I don't even really know why. Some thoughts can come up when thinking about releasing such clingings, that suggest it's safer to stay clinging. But when thinking about that, that doesn't actually make much sense, would you agree?

Its definitely a choice, and I know it makes me miserable and dysfunctional to a degree and that my mind would be peaceful if i let go of it, but the hard part is unwiring all of the positions that have been given to me by society and peers.

Yes, it can definitely take a while, but it can also be experienced as quite exciting to notice more and more assumptions and thoughts arise that don't really resonate. Just noticing can be enough to release it, and sometimes choosing a thought that feels better than the one that previously came up can go a long way too. But you've already been releasing some conditioning in our talk I would say, and that went quite easily.

Indeed, the mind does not like not knowing though , these judgements and stories hold my reality together. Taking a leap of faith and trusting reality would free me from being this restricted person that only filters how to behave through a narrative. I'd say the narrative does more harm than good, what does the mind know about such matters?

I think that sounds good. Could it be that you would experience yourself as nothing in particular without those stories? Perhaps that would feel quite pleasant and free?


Kind regards,
Floris

[chives90]

Great. You say thoughts say the sensations belong to you, because you feel them. Could that actually be just as arbitrary as seeing sounds belong to you, because you're hearing them?
Just to make sure this is clear here is a sort of exercise. Could you imagine that you're dreaming and being, the opposite sex, a woman, in that dream. I say woman, because (I'm actually not sure) I've imagined you're a man. After you've imagined shortly on what that experience would be like, my question is: what does that mean, being a woman? What experiences are you imagining being there, in order that we say 'I'm a woman'? I can imagine you'd imagine feeling a little different, that there might be a different self-image, maybe the voice would be different, maybe you sometimes see a womanhand or so in your visual field. These are things we associate with being a woman, right. But is there an actual woman there, is any of these things you're imagining with womanness an actual woman entity, or do these experiences associated with womanness combine to create an actual entity? That would mean that certain experiences combines are an actual entity. And isn't what you're experiencing right now, not just the same. There might be a voice, certain feelings, thoughts, perceptions that are associated with being a Chives/person/entity, but not an actual entity as such?

There is a mental attachment to have pleasurable sensations and avoid painful sensations which is why they are identified personally, ie I get to feel them; sounds aren't as intense and continuously present, bodily sensations are always here, sounds come and go.

I've lived being a man for all my life, If i woke up tomorrow in a womans body and still had my chives ego I would feel like a man 'chives' in a womans body as I have all these memories of being a man and the narrative of it. Being in a womans body I would quickly have to learn how to interact with the world differently. People would relate to me differently, different survival challenges would arise, I'd have to behave differently to navigate life and existence. I would still never fully feel like a woman as I always have the memory of being a man if some freaky friday scenario happened. People would probably say i was insane, but if if this ego woke up in a womans body I wouldn't identified as being it because the identity is mental and based on a lived story. I could have very well gone insane and if enough time passed and my memory of being chives starts to fade I could even doubt that I was ever a man called chives. If this change was permanent I would finally conclude I have had total amnesia and chives may have never existed and I am this woman that became delusional. Therefore what is real can't be defined by mental phenomena as thoughts are groundless.

Yes. The mind can prefer clinging to negative or false ideas, just because .. heck, I don't even really know why. Some thoughts can come up when thinking about releasing such clingings, that suggest it's safer to stay clinging. But when thinking about that, that doesn't actually make much sense, would you agree?

The mind just likes something to hold onto, otherwise the mind would be rendered useless and I would become nothing, I go through different scenarios in my head but its impossible to tell which is the best, therefore I can come to terms with letting go of them.

Yes, it can definitely take a while, but it can also be experienced as quite exciting to notice more and more assumptions and thoughts arise that don't really resonate. Just noticing can be enough to release it, and sometimes choosing a thought that feels better than the one that previously came up can go a long way too. But you've already been releasing some conditioning in our talk I would say, and that went quite easily.

The more interpretations I listen to about how life works and seeing the limitations of these as well as scientific and mathematical models, I can come to terms with its impossible to predict the outcome of everything using symbols and models therefore I can surrender to that and even though these models aren't useless I dont have to be neurotic about which one to use as Ive made it this far in life with making decisions spontaneously and dont need to dwell so seriously as thinking is very limited in understanding things.

I think that sounds good. Could it be that you would experience yourself as nothing in particular without those stories? Perhaps that would feel quite pleasant and free?

It would feel pleasant and liberating as there is no thought story during sleep and no suffering occurs, even bad dreams have a lack of self narrative that tells the mind this is bad and harmful. Without a self narrative I wouldn't have to be neurotic about what to choose as I can't choose between alternatives without a self narrative. What happens is what happens no-one to have to worry about what to do,

Many thanks

Chives