Stop Resisting

[Nuss]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I have the conceptual understanding that sensate experiences and thoughts occurring in every waking moment are not "me," as there is no "self," only experience. Even if I catch myself "stuck in the past" or "planning for the future," those thoughts are still sensations occurring in the present, as there is only the present moment.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am seeking guidance on the path towards liberation. I began my journey with a vipassana meditation course (in the tradition of S.N. Goenka) in 2018. I have since then been a regular meditation practitioner. I am looking for helpful guidance that will point me toward experiencing "no-self." I have never had a formal mentor or guide, and believe I would benefit greatly from direct pointing towards inquiry of this illusion. At times I find myself holding onto the "self" and all things that it identifies with-thoughts, feelings, hopes and dreams, desires, comforts, fears. I want to stop resisting to the truths of the universe which started to appear as I began meditation practice.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect a question-and-answer format of conversation that will allow my guide to understand how I currently view the self and allow them to help me see where I perpetuate the concept of "self" in my daily life. I expect to spend time with the questions provided by the guide to carefully observe my relationship with the self in order to more clearly and efficiently see through the illusion. I also expect to not get the "answers" directly from my guide, as this would further my conceptual knowledge of "no-self," however not automatically allow me to directly experience it. In order to experience this, I will take my guides questions whole-heartedly and use them as tools for inquiry.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been practicing vipassana meditation for almost 3 years. Since that initial experience, I have felt a momentum shift towards seeking clarity in truth in all things. This practice has also led me towards inquiry of change, suffering, and the illusion of self in all things. Out of those three, the illusion of self has been the most challenging for me to directly experience.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[JonathanR]

Hello Nuss

(Shall I use that name from now on or a different one?)

Greetings. Welcome to LU. I can point for you, if you like? My name is Jon.

I read your introduction with interest . Thank you for a very helpful and clear account.

Out of those three, the illusion of self has been the most challenging for me to directly experience.

Here's a little question to kick off then:

How is a "me" supposed to experience no me ?

Just write your gut response, whatever that may be?


Warm regards

Jon

[Nuss]

Hello Jon, thank you for your time and guidance.

Yes, Nuss is fine.

How is a "me" supposed to experience no me ?

It cannot, because there was not one to begin with. There is no "me" to experience "me," and there never was. At times it feels as if there is a “me” hanging onto feelings, hopes/expectations, and anxieties. These feelings feel more real due to the physical sensations that accompany them. There is an understanding (through prior looking) that these things are only made up of thoughts, which are not controlled by a “thinker” or “controller.” However, certain thoughts arise which seem to cast blinders over the rest of awareness of here and now (sights, sensations, sounds, etc).

With gratitude,
Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hello Nuss

Good to hear back from you

. There is no "me" to experience "me," and there never was... At times it feels as if there is a “me” hanging onto feelings, hopes/expectations, and anxieties. These feelings feel more real due to the physical sensations that accompany them

Ok.

I can see from your reply and your original statements that you have a good conceptual understanding about no self (how it's supposed to work) but also that there's room for greater clarity , so let's turn attention toward "self" now and see where that leads?

Please let me know what is your current understanding of what "you" are?

In answering be careful not to slip into the tramlines of what the intellect concludes must be ,'The Truth" even if you might be able to say technically correct words about no self.

Go inwards quietly and ask , as if you had never heard anything about anything.


With love

Jon

[Nuss]

Thank you for your question, Jon. It was very helpful in sifting past the intellect and into the place where the "self" is sticking.

In answering be careful not to slip into the tramlines of what the intellect concludes must be ,'The Truth" even if you might be able to say technically correct words about no self.

Yes. Through conceptualizing, these things listed below can be proved to not be "me," however these are still places where it feels like there is a "me." 

Please let me know what is your current understanding of what "you" are?

I sat with this question for most of the day today. Here is what feels like "I" am: 
1. Awareness-the one experiencing sensations, sounds, sights, smells, tastes, thoughts
2. It feels like I am a collection of my experiences, hopes, and dreams 
3. The esteems, expectations, and qualities of "me:" kind, smart, attractive, calming (both from my own mind and put on by others)

Something occurred today that might be interesting to you: While verbally reacting to something while driving, it felt as if the response came from somewhere else, as if I was in the passenger seat and the person driving made a verbal reaction to a slow driver on the street. No feelings of frustration came with the reaction, only the words that came out almost unexpectedly. A thought arose after blurting something out: "That didn't feel like 'me.' Who was that?" 

With gratitude,
Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hello Nuss

. Thank you for your question, Jon. It was very helpful in sifting past the intellect and into the place where the "self" is sticking.

Great. Good to hear.

. I sat with this question for most of the day today. Here is what feels like "I" am:
1. Awareness-the one experiencing sensations, sounds, sights, smells, tastes, thoughts
2. It feels like I am a collection of my experiences, hopes, and dreams
3. The esteems, expectations, and qualities of "me:" kind, smart, attractive, calming (both from my own mind and put on by others)

This is really helpful. Thank you. Let's take these one by one.

"I am awareness" is a very common, relatively subtle type of identification. Because awareness is imagined to be potentially infinite and not constrained it can seem like an attractive, expansive idea for "me" to be..

But usually this is also awareness OF, so there can still be the perception of a kind of "me" that is aware of, for example, "objects", "others", "ideas", "sensations" and so on. Because it is imagined that these things are discrete things and somehow separate from "me" (awareness) and each other. Although there are nondual teachings about awareness as a kind of nondual totality the experience can still be one of some feeling of separation. Does this ring a bell?

. 2. It feels like I am a collection of my experiences, hopes, and dreams

Well, experiences do happen but in the immediate moment is there ever "a collection" going on, or is "collection of experiences" an idea about many experiences as imagined and conflated?

There is the idea of a "self" as a fixture or permanent thing that has experiences, hopes and dreams. What if experiences happen, hopes and dreams are imagined ... but all the time the fixture that is assumed to "have" these is no more than a story about an entity?

. 3. The esteems, expectations, and qualities of "me:" kind, smart, attractive, calming (both from my own mind and put on by others)

Ah yes. Well,these all have to be noticed, as you are already doing but as the glove-puppet show whose drama only seems to point to a real "self" . Take a look.

Lots of love

Jon

[Nuss]

Although there are nondual teachings about awareness as a kind of nondual totality the experience can still be one of some feeling of separation. Does this ring a bell?

By this do you mean the feeling of "oneness" with everything while also "emptiness?" As in, because "I" am nothing, I am also everything /part of everything?

There are times when looking/meditating it feels as if there is a "watcher" noticing each sensation, sound, sight, smell, taste, or thought (unless it is one which casts the "blinders"). On occasion the "watcher" is noticed as a separate happening. For example: sound happens, thought arises about the location of the sound, what it is, or if "I" find the sound pleasant or unpleasant, sometimes accompanied with a physical sensation.

Well, experiences do happen but in the immediate moment is there ever "a collection" going on, or is "collection of experiences" an idea about many experiences as imagined and conflated?

Experiences only exist as thoughts after they have passed. The collected experiences are not there in the moment, only in reflection and when searching for "meaning." Previous experiences are part of the causal chain for future behaviors of Nuss. For example, making a mistake while teaching will be noted and potentially acted upon in a different way in the future.

There is the idea of a "self" as a fixture or permanent thing that has experiences, hopes and dreams. What if experiences happen, hopes and dreams are imagined ... but all the time the fixture that is assumed to "have" these is no more than a story about an entity?

Expectations are nowhere to be found other than in the mind as transient thoughts. I notice that expectations also cloud the experience of the now. For example, expecting a movie, meal, or interaction to be a certain way and evaluating that experience through that expectation. I notice that when eating food especially. After eating the first bite of something, "autopilot" thoughts kick in and replay an image of that first bite which takes place of the full experience of the second bite and so on.

Ah yes. Well,these all have to be noticed, as you are already doing but as the glove-puppet show whose drama only seems to point to a real "self" . Take a look.

When looking for where the "qualities of Nuss" reside, they are nowhere to be found. They are only stories.

With gratitude,
Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hello Nuss

. Although there are nondual teachings about awareness as a kind of nondual totality the experience can still be one of some feeling of separation. Does this ring a bell?

By this do you mean the feeling of "oneness" with everything while also "emptiness?" As in, because "I" am nothing, I am also everything /part of everything?

Not really (although that sounds nice). I used too many words for saying that identification as a somehow separate "watcher" needs investigating.

. There are times when looking/meditating it feels as if there is a "watcher" noticing each sensation, sound, sight, smell, taste, or thought (unless it is one which casts the "blinders"). On occasion the "watcher" is noticed as a separate happening. For example: sound happens, thought arises about the location of the sound, what it is, or if "I" find the sound pleasant or unpleasant, sometimes accompanied with a physical sensation.

Very nice work. It might help to go to this type of experience right now, to notice what happens.

Sitting quietly but not "doing" meditation as such, start to notice whatever is heard right here and now. This could be very slight sound, perhaps a slight electrical hum or sound of breath. It could be louder, birdsong outside, a car going past? It doesn't matter. It's all heard.

Now, there is experience happening for sure. Hearing is happening. But in the hearing, is there something that is doing the hearing?

Do "ears hear"?

Is there a "self", hearing?

If there are thoughts about hearing (or anything else) are those doing hearing, or are they something extra that is added on to the immediate experience of hearing?

. Previous experiences are part of the causal chain for future behaviors of Nuss. For example, making a mistake while teaching will be noted and potentially acted upon in a different way in the future.

How is it known that a "causal chain" is how it all works? What if this is just a belief that holds other beliefs in place?

. After eating the first bite of something, "autopilot" thoughts kick in and replay an image of that first bite which takes place of the full experience of the second bite and so on

This is quite close to the hearing exercise, in that you speak of the primary experience +. ( quite possibly) an ensuing commentary.

With love

Jon

[Nuss]

Greetings Jon,

Sitting quietly but not "doing" meditation as such, start to notice whatever is heard right here and now. This could be very slight sound, perhaps a slight electrical hum or sound of breath. It could be louder, birdsong outside, a car going past? It doesn't matter. It's all heard.
- Now, there is experience happening for sure. Hearing is happening. But in the hearing, is there something that is doing the hearing?
- Do "ears hear"?
- Is there a "self", hearing?
- If there are thoughts about hearing (or anything else) are those doing hearing, or are they something extra that is added on to the immediate experience of hearing?

Ears do not do the hearing, hearing is only experienced. Ears are the location of the sensation of hearing. There are thoughts that occur to direct hearing during this exercise and to identify and locate sounds as they happen. The thoughts that identify sounds feel simply like thoughts and not Nuss. A majority of sounds are not personally identified with as in "I like this sound" or "I don't like that sound."

It still feels as if Nuss is the "awareness" of the sounds. I would like to spend more time listening tomorrow morning and report back.

How is it known that a "causal chain" is how it all works? What if this is just a belief that holds other beliefs in place?

What was meant by "causal chain" is that all actions of Nuss are based off past experiences and actions happening in the moment. For instance, it may feel as if I am "doing" the dishes, but it is really a response to noticing dishes in the sink waiting to be cleaned along with a behavioral habit of tidying up in the morning. Through "living meditation" this flow of events has started to become apparent.

Known: Knowledge is an area that could use exploring. Perhaps another area where Nuss is identifying- "I know this," "I know about that," etc. This also builds on the aforementioned "qualities of Nuss."

If new insights are seen tomorrow morning I will add an additional reply below this one, hopefully in the next 12 hours.

Thank you so much for your help so far, Jon

Nuss

[Nuss]

A small follow-up to last night's post:

There are times where it feels like Nuss is the "awareness of hearing," while other times if feels simply that listening is happening. Sometimes focus is darting around to the sounds around Nuss while walking and other times sounds are noticed all together as if in concert with one another.

Talk to you soon,
Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hello Nuss


It's a pleasure to work with you.

. Ears do not do the hearing, hearing is only experienced. Ears are the location of the sensation of hearing.

Really? How about birdsong?

In the very moment of hearing that, is the song "located" in or around ears? In fact, is the experience located at all?

Or the sound of distant sea or aircraft?

How is it known that hearing is located?

. There are times where it feels like Nuss is the "awareness of hearing," while other times if feels simply that listening is happening. Sometimes focus is darting around to the sounds around Nuss while walking.

Is an entity" Nuss" contained in a body,

Is a body experiencing sounds?


With love

Jon

[Nuss]

Hello Jon, thank you for your patience while I look into these questions.

Is an entity" Nuss" contained in a body, 

Nuss is not contained in a body, it only “exists” in the mind.

Is a body experiencing sounds?

This response might have a little too much "intellect:"
The body contains the hardware required for sensations-touch, sight, hearing, smell, taste. The body itself is not "doing" the experiencing, because there is nothing for the body to do, the experience simply happens.

Really? How about birdsong?
In the very moment of hearing that, is the song "located" in or around ears? In fact, is the experience located at all? 
Or the sound of distant sea or aircraft?  
How is it known that hearing is located? 
The ears seem to be the location of the sensations of hearing.

These questions of hearing were pondered for a good while yesterday.

Location-in terms of the location of the sound source. For instance, a bird in a tree to the right is created as a thought-spatial awareness. The experience itself is not located in the ear, it is happening and being felt through sensation in the ear.

In terms of the location of the sensation, that is where it feels the hearing is. For instance, there is no hearing sensation on a hand or arm.

I suppose it is possible that even the location of the sensation (ears) is also a form of "locating" done by Nuss, however it does not yet feel like two separate events- 1 being the sound and 2 being the locating of the sensation.

With gratitude,
~Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hello

. Hello Jon, thank you for your patience while I look into these questions.

You're welcome. .

. Is an entity" Nuss" contained in a body,
Nuss is not contained in a body, it only “exists” in the mind.

Right what is this "Nuss" that exists in a mind?

What mind?

. The body contains the hardware required for sensations-touch, sight, hearing, smell, taste. The body itself is not "doing" the experiencing, because there is nothing for the body to do, the experience simply happens.

How is it known that "hardware exists"?

Is there a direct experience of hardware being contained in a body?

In your investigation here, nothing that cannot be noticed directly (for example the redness of a red flower) can be admitted as definitely happening.
Does this make sense? Tell me if it doesn't because this is important.

Is there any direct experience of "hardware" or is hardware an idea (from science or education)?

. The body itself is not "doing" the experiencing, because there is nothing for the body to do, the experience simply happens.

This does seem to be true.

If the body is not doing the experiencing, is there anything,l else that can be found, a "self" or "Nuss" that is doing it?

If not, what's going on?

. The experience itself is not located in the ear, it is happening and being felt through sensation in the ear.

Look into that (or similar) sensation in the immediate moment of it's happening.

There's a blackbird tweeting here right now, trying to distract cats. Is "feeling through sensation in the ear" any discernible part of this experience?, (or is that some thought or theory tacked on, overlaid on the immediacy)?

With love

Jon

[Nuss]

Hello Jon,

In your investigation here, nothing that cannot be noticed directly (for example the redness of a red flower) can be admitted as definitely happening. 
Does this make sense? Tell me if it doesn't because this is important. 

Yes, sorry for the previous answers that were too intellectual and not from direct experience.

Right what is this "Nuss" that exists in a mind?
What mind?

A direct experience of mind cannot be found, only thoughts and sensations. Nuss cannot be experienced directly, it is only thoughts.

Is there a direct experience of hardware being contained in a body?
Is there any direct experience of "hardware" or is hardware an idea (from science or education)?
How is it known that "hardware exists"?

No there is no direct experience of hardware. It is only an idea from education and held as thought.

If the body is not doing the experiencing, is there anything, else that can be found, a "self" or "Nuss" that is doing it?
If not, what's going on?

This question was very helpful. Nothing and nobody is doing the experiencing. Experiences only happen. The body does not do anything to experience. It is simply happening.

Look into that (or similar) sensation in the immediate moment of it's happening.  
There's a blackbird tweeting here right now, trying to distract cats. Is "feeling through sensation in the ear" any discernible part of this experience?, (or is that some thought or theory tacked on, overlaid on the immediacy)? 

Locating of the sensation of hearing in the ear feels like an immediate thought/processing upon the recognition of hearing. Hearing happens on its own without locating of the sound source or location of the sensation of hearing. Hearing is happening with no need to locate or label.

Thank you!
~Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hello Nuss

. If the body is not doing the experiencing, is there anything, else that can be found, a "self" or "Nuss" that is doing it?
If not, what's going on?

This question was very helpful. Nothing and nobody is doing the experiencing. Experiences only happen. The body does not do anything to experience. It is simply happening.

Glad it was helpful. Where does this leave "self" then?

. Locating of the sensation of hearing in the ear feels like an immediate thought/processing upon the recognition of hearing.

Thoughts can appear extremely quickly. And thoughts do happen. At least, their tendency to turn up happens. But what of their content, what thoughts are about?

For example there can be thoughts about "location of hearing in the ear" (that might well accord with an analysis of "hearing" from a school biology textbook) . But in relation to the very simple immediate sensation of hearing are thoughts about " location in the ear" part of the direct experience, or something different, something extra that is added on to the pure hearing?


With love

Jon