on a non duality video bender

[Luckydrops]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the self is illusory in nature, something that is constructed, continually confirmed by others-family, friends, but in reality no one is there who has a life, or controlling it, that we in essence being lived.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm perpetually dissatisfied by "life" and at every corner, there's a sense of lack that is nagging at me, and it won't let up and the "seeking" seems to be ramping up and has been relentless. I guess, I'm looking for people who were also in the same boat.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I don't know, clarity. maybe? I'm not really sure what to expect in terms of this subject, it seems such a strange yet essential conversation to have with another human being, but I'm really open to the idea .

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Casually joined zen meditation groups in my early 20's, followed various spiritual teachers, and currently now in my early 40's watching non duality videos every day and night, it has been all consuming.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[warissem]

Hi Luckydrops

Welcome to this forum, I will accompany you to see through the illusion of a separate self. During our dialog there is a need to respect some rules :

Commitment : you engage to be commited to this dialog, it means you check up once a day in the forum to give answers to my questions. If you cannot do it once a day, let me know.

Avoid all reading books, listening to audios or watching videos about spirituality, advaita, enlightenment, ... during this dialog. Forget all what you know about this subject.

Read the disclaimer text here viewtopic.php?f=16&t=221

Learn how to use the quote function here viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Thank you

Warissem

[Luckydrops]

Hi Warissem,

Thank you so much for responding! I've taken your suggestion and stopped watching non duality videos. I understand how this intense looking is maybe perpetuating the seeking, but it feels so uncomfortable sometimes, it doesn't know what else to do..

I don't have else much to say, but thank you for appearing !!

Luckydrops

[warissem]

Hi Luckydrops

You are much welcome.

What do you expect to happen after seeing that there is no you, no separate self ? What do you expect to change in your daily life?

What is a separate self in your own words ?

Thank you

Warissem

[Luckydrops]

What I expect to happen when it is seen that there is no separate self is the lessening of the sense of incompleteness and not okay-ness with life. Externally, maybe not much might change, but maybe a freer way of being might happen where there's less belief in thoughts and less insistence on the promise of a better future.

To me, a separate self feels like a dull toothache. A low enough level pain to keep ignoring it, but when the nerve becomes raw or the cavity becomes deep, it can no longer be ignored. It feels like despair, always wanting, and can never seem to get enough.

[warissem]

Hi Luckydrops

What I expect to happen when it is seen that there is no separate self is the lessening of the sense of incompleteness and not okay-ness with life.

It could be lessening but as you know the seeing of no separate self is the beginning of a process of realization of our true nature.

Externally, maybe not much might change, but maybe a freer way of being might happen where there's less belief in thoughts and less insistence on the promise of a better future.

Well said.

To me, a separate self feels like a dull toothache. A low enough level pain to keep ignoring it, but when the nerve becomes raw or the cavity becomes deep, it can no longer be ignored. It feels like despair, always wanting, and can never seem to get enough.

A toothache is a sensation : is a separate self a sensation ?

You say that a separate self is always wanting : can you describe this separate self ? Is it a sensation, a color, a shape, a sound, a taste, a smell, a thought ?

Warissem

[Luckydrops]

It could be lessening but as you know the seeing of no separate self is the beginning of a process of realization of our true nature.

Yes, I guess I’m lowering expectations, maybe a defense mechanism against frustration. I’ve had a “glimpse” of the eternal but it was psychedelically induced and of course short lived, but it made enough of an impact that I couldn’t leave this “subject” alone. It was frightening at the beginning to discover “I” was already dead, but at the same time it was eternal. And there was no sense of time or going to other places, life felt like soup, and it felt like that moment just staring at a tree was absolutely enough. Though in the background the question of the “remnant” self remained..”what am I going to do now?” It was highly disorienting but profound.

A toothache is a sensation : is a separate self a sensation ?

it feels like a sensation-like there’s someone running this life; making decisions and having thoughts inside the body. I do notice that thoughts in general create pain points for me, there’s always some worry in the background.

You say that a separate self is always wanting : can you describe this separate self ? Is it a sensation, a color, a shape, a sound, a taste, a smell, a thought ?

I can feel it at the pit of my stomach, maybe its a thought of wanting to escape, to be somewhere else better than here. it also sometimes feels like a memory that overlays everything, like I already know whats going to happen and I’ll be bored, which feels like a low level pain.

[warissem]

Hi Luckydrops

Yes, I guess I’m lowering expectations, maybe a defense mechanism against frustration. I’ve had a “glimpse” of the eternal but it was psychedelically induced and of course short lived, but it made enough of an impact that I couldn’t leave this “subject” alone. It was frightening at the beginning to discover “I” was already dead, but at the same time it was eternal.

There is no "I" to die in the first place. Have you read the story of a rope and a snake ? A man has gone through a road in twilight, he sees a snake in basket. He was paralyzed by fear. A sage find him and asked : why are you frozen like this ? The man said : a snake, a snake. The sage looked at the basket and sees a rope instead, he puts light on the basket and the frightened man sees the rope. There was no snake at the first place. It was an illusion like this "I".

And there was no sense of time or going to other places, life felt like soup, and it felt like that moment just staring at a tree was absolutely enough. Though in the background the question of the “remnant” self remained..”what am I going to do now?” It was highly disorienting but profound.

Psychedelics have anesthezied parts of the brain. You had an experience and experiences come and go.

it feels like a sensation-like there’s someone running this life; making decisions and having thoughts inside the body. I do notice that thoughts in general create pain points for me, there’s always some worry in the background.

Now there is a need to recall to direct experience which is the main clue during our dialog. Direct experience is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching (sensations). In direct experience, is there someone running the life ? Is there an entity inside the body ?

I can feel it at the pit of my stomach, maybe its a thought of wanting to escape, to be somewhere else better than here. it also sometimes feels like a memory that overlays everything, like I already know whats going to happen and I’ll be bored, which feels like a low level pain.

Is what you feel at the pit of your stomach a sensation or a self ?
What is a memory in your own words ? Look.
Bob Adamson says : "what is wrong with right now if we don't think about it? " does this speak to you ?

Warissem

[Luckydrops]

Hi Warissem,

There is no "I" to die in the first place. Have you read the story of a rope and a snake ? A man has gone through a road in twilight, he sees a snake in basket. He was paralyzed by fear. A sage find him and asked : why are you frozen like this ? The man said : a snake, a snake. The sage looked at the basket and sees a rope instead, he puts light on the basket and the frightened man sees the rope. There was no snake at the first place. It was an illusion like this "I".

No, I haven’t read that, but I’ve heard of similar stories. So its comedy after all!

Now there is a need to recall to direct experience which is the main clue during our dialog. Direct experience is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching (sensations). In direct experience, is there someone running the life ? Is there an entity inside the body ?

When I’m listening to something, its just instantaneous, so its just heard, I guess thats same for smelling, tasting and touching. I guess it also feels automatic with no one running that response. With the senses, since its so immediate, there doesn’t seem to be an entity in the body.

Is what you feel at the pit of your stomach a sensation or a self ?
What is a memory in your own words ? Look.
Bob Adamson says : "what is wrong with right now if we don't think about it? " does this speak to you ?

For some reason, I’m having a tough time with the question "what is memory?" I want to answer it honestly, and I think memory is just what I think I already know, something that already happened and is triggered by a thought or sensation.

yes, sometimes when thoughts aren’t there, there’s nothing really wrong, it just feels like when thoughts appear, something needs to be resolved or fixed or ruminated over..

Many thanks for the pointers,
Joan

[warissem]

Hi Joan

After having read your answers, it is time to do an exercise about thoughts, here it is : take your time to observe your thoughts before giving an answer. Just relax and take easy.

1. Can you find an inherent self anywhere, outside of thought?

2. Can thought experience thought? Can thought experience anything? (Thought is so very overrated - by thought).

3. Does thought make any contact with other kinds of sense experience, such as sounds or sensations – or are they totally separate from each other?

4. For a moment take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment: 
Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all colour.
Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them.
And notice that you're not making them happen.
You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of.
And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience.
You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it. You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.

5. The story of "me’ can seem to have continuity. Is it really continuous? Or are there simply isolated thoughts that never can truly touch each other, some of them claiming that there's one continuous story?

6. Observe thought closely. Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this? Isn’t a thought only known as it appears? In that case, can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?

7. Sit quietly and pay close attention to your thoughts for 20 minutes. Notice that thoughts seem to pop out of nowhere and have no obvious cause. They are a total surprise and you can find no cause or reason for their appearance. It should be obvious you were not involved in any way in the creation of these thoughts.

8. Do you have unpleasant thoughts? Do you want to have them? If you had any control over thoughts, don’t you think you would choose not to think such thoughts at all? Wouldn’t you be able to choose never to have thoughts that seem to make you unhappy?

9. When we look very closely and precisely we come to see that “me” thoughts only refer to other “me” thoughts, not to an actual abiding “me.” Observe thoughts with precision; can you ever find a ‘me’ within the “me” thoughts and feelings, or just a sense of me?

10. Pay attention to mental activity – to thoughts and images in the mind. Where are they arising? Are they inside something? Are they central to you, or are they peripheral? Do they leave any trace when they have gone?

PS : You can give answers to 5 questions one day and 5 other questions another day?

Thank you

Warissem

[Luckydrops]

Hi Warissem,

Thanks for your patience, these questions really blew my mind, and I had to take more time to answer.

1. Can you find an inherent self anywhere, outside of thought?

When the thinking is observed, I don’t get a sense of self. Its just quiet and still. There’s a kind of relaxation when I can observe the thought and know that its just a thought, its effects seem to soften and when that is happening, I can’t find where self is.

2. Can thought experience thought? Can thought experience anything? (Thought is so very overrated - by thought).

Not that I can observe. In my experience, I couldn’t find that thought can feel or experience anything. So I guess, who we think we are (which are mostly thoughts) is not the “experiencer”, so how can thoughts have experience and thoughts?

3. Does thought make any contact with other kinds of sense experience, such as sounds or sensations – or are they totally separate from each other?

When I observe and look at thoughts, I also feel sensations happening simultaneously, yet, when I look at this question, I assume that thoughts and sensations might be totally separate, but I really can’t tell because sometimes thoughts feel like a sensation, or maybe it causes sensations, or vice versa ?

4. For a moment take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment: 
Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all colour.
Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them.
And notice that you're not making them happen.
You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of.
And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience.
You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it. You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.

Thank you for this pointer, I haven’t observed this until now and really looked at it, it was just always automatic and maybe even taken for granted. I’ve always thought that I was “doing”my thoughts, but it seems that they just come and go on their own. I’m observing that some thoughts cause upset/unrest and when its seen as just thoughts it seems to dissipate and something dissolves in the moment and theres some sort of clarity and there’s no residual feelings which I seem to think maybe a resistance of sorts...

5. The story of "me’ can seem to have continuity. Is it really continuous? Or are there simply isolated thoughts that never can truly touch each other, some of them claiming that there's one continuous story?

This is an interesting question because I’m now starting to sort of sense a deconstruction of the story of self. As I’m delving into this, I do notice that thoughts about the story of me are fragmented and random and always subject to other’s retelling also, because I don’t know if I can actually accurately piece together a coherent story of myself- so the story changes all the time, I’ve always thought it was continuous and linear, but now I’m really questioning that belief. There seems to be a sort of generic story that we’ve bee conditioned to believe and tell to solidify our identity though when i really look, it never rings true.

Thanks as always,
J

[warissem]

Hi Joan

First, there is a need to review the using of the quote function. It is my question which has to be quoted not your answer.

When the thinking is observed, I don’t get a sense of self. Its just quiet and still. There’s a kind of relaxation when I can observe the thought and know that its just a thought, its effects seem to soften and when that is happening, I can’t find where self is.

Yes, good observations.

Not that I can observe. In my experience, I couldn’t find that thought can feel or experience anything.

Yes

So I guess, who we think we are (which are mostly thoughts) is not the “experiencer”, so how can thoughts have experience and thoughts?

In the first page of this dialog, we fixed rules about looking at direct experience and don't guess anything. Things must be seen as true not inferred by logic.

When I observe and look at thoughts, I also feel sensations happening simultaneously, yet, when I look at this question, I assume that thoughts and sensations might be totally separate, but I really can’t tell because sometimes thoughts feel like a sensation, or maybe it causes sensations, or vice versa ?

A thought is a thought, a sensation is a sensation. Yes sometimes, there is confusion because the labeling of a sensation is so fast that it is not separated from a sensation. Is there a cause and effect in direct experience ?

Thank you for this pointer, I haven’t observed this until now and really looked at it, it was just always automatic and maybe even taken for granted. I’ve always thought that I was “doing”my thoughts, but it seems that they just come and go on their own. I’m observing that some thoughts cause upset/unrest and when its seen as just thoughts it seems to dissipate and something dissolves in the moment and theres some sort of clarity and there’s no residual feelings which I seem to think maybe a resistance of sorts...

Yes, yes.

This is an interesting question because I’m now starting to sort of sense a deconstruction of the story of self. As I’m delving into this, I do notice that thoughts about the story of me are fragmented and random and always subject to other’s retelling also, because I don’t know if I can actually accurately piece together a coherent story of myself- so the story changes all the time, I’ve always thought it was continuous and linear, but now I’m really questioning that belief. There seems to be a sort of generic story that we’ve bee conditioned to believe and tell to solidify our identity though when i really look, it never rings true.

Thank you, take your time to look at the other questions.

Warissem

[Luckydrops]

Many thanks Warissem for clarifying the quote funciton.

Here are my observations for today-

6. Observe thought closely. Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this? Isn’t a thought only known as it appears? In that case, can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?

As i observe my thoughts, its obvious that it can’t know what thought is going to come next. It doesn’t know. They’re not deliberate and not pre planned, they just seem to happen out of nowhere spontaneously.

7. Sit quietly and pay close attention to your thoughts for 20 minutes. Notice that thoughts seem to pop out of nowhere and have no obvious cause. They are a total surprise and you can find no cause or reason for their appearance. It should be obvious you were not involved in any way in the creation of these thoughts.

As I look closely especially the “negative”self beliefs, it was almost like I listened in on a conversation and added it to this person’s shoulds and shouldn’ts without it being interrogated. Its like these thoughts just crashed the party and they’re just there but no one asked them any question or were questioned until recently when i started delving into this subject..its as if thoughts were just given to you without having asked for them..some may have come from family, friends, society, and they’re subtle enough that they have gone unquestioned for a long time…now i feel like they’re in the spotlight and they can’t hide, and they’re not good or bad, its just that lots of them are beliefs based on shaky ground.

8. Do you have unpleasant thoughts? Do you want to have them? If you had any control over thoughts, don’t you think you would choose not to think such thoughts at all? Wouldn’t you be able to choose never to have thoughts that seem to make you unhappy?

I have unpleasant thoughts the moment i wake up, i don’t want them but they’re just there sometimes. If I had control, I would absolutely abolish the “bad” ones , the ones that make me feel bad. It's clear that I don’t choose them much like I can’t control if they’ll be sun or clouds today. Absolutely, if there was a pill to take to get rid of those thoughts, I would take it. Seeing these thoughts seem to lessen their grip.

9. When we look very closely and precisely we come to see that “me” thoughts only refer to other “me” thoughts, not to an actual abiding “me.” Observe thoughts with precision; can you ever find a ‘me’ within the “me” thoughts and feelings, or just a sense of me?

Absolutely nowhere to be found, even the worst ones of self hatred is nowhere to be found. There in no lasting me anywhere.

10. Pay attention to mental activity – to thoughts and images in the mind. Where are they arising? Are they inside something? Are they central to you, or are they peripheral? Do they leave any trace when they have gone?

I can’t pinpoint the location of where thoughts actually arise. I would assume its the mind because it seems like its in my head, but I can’t really know for sure. They seem like something but when it is observed, they just come and go. I can’t find a center either, so I don’t know. If not closely looked at, some thoughts seem like they’re in the periphery and ready to set the mood. Some thoughts seem to leave a trace of a bad feeling or a hopeful feeling. There’s never any resolve in thoughts.

Is there a cause and effect in direct experience ?

I’ve always assumed so, until now that its in question. It seems like moments don’t have a history, but its hard to believe, but maybe the reality is, whatever is happening now is causeless. That is not understandable at all.

[warissem]

Hi Joan

You have made good observations, a great job.

I can’t pinpoint the location of where thoughts actually arise.

Good observation but here ....

I would assume its the mind because it seems like its in my head,

..... you get out from looking at direct experience. Now, look at what you call "mind" and describe it to me.

I’ve always assumed so, until now that its in question. It seems like moments don’t have a history, but its hard to believe, but maybe the reality is, whatever is happening now is causeless. That is not understandable at all.

The goal of this dialog is not to give you another set of beliefs, you have to LOOK for yourself. Looking at direct experience not bringing things from what you know. If there are no thoughts, is there cause and effect or is there only what is ?

Is there a past and future outside of thoughts ?

Thank you

Warissem

[Luckydrops]

Hello Warissem!

Now, look at what you call "mind" and describe it to me.

I look for mind and I cannot locate or find it anywhere. It seems the mind is just a collection of thoughts, which also come and go. I never really looked at this this intensely before.

The goal of this dialog is not to give you another set of beliefs, you have to LOOK for yourself. Looking at direct experience not bringing things from what you know. If there are no thoughts, is there cause and effect or is there only what is ?

As I sit and look at this question I notice that without thoughts, there isn’t even a possibility of cause and effect, and there is really only what is- sensations and visuals.

Is there a past and future outside of thoughts ?

No, I cannot find past and future here.

Thanks as always,
Joan