mystery momentum

[dc74]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that there is only emerging thoughts and feelings and sensations, but they are happening to no one. There is no center. There is a constant and desperate self-referential attempt to make something real and solid. This is both exhausting and impossible.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for support and structure so that this knowing can be lived in an abiding way. I have had weeks and months of this wondrous absence, and inevitably fall back into an experience of separation and victimization. I am looking to be held in what I know is true until everything else falls away, especially this habit of self-referencing as a separate self with a life and a past and a future. It all feels insane to me, and untrue, yet I know I am still caught in some fundamental ways. I am looking to complete this process that I started twenty years ago when the truth was experienced.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I suppose I would want someone who has completed the non-journey to skillfully guide me to see the places/beliefs/fears inside of me that have been out of my awareness and keep me from living the truth of what I am (or am not). I cannot see what I cannot see, and I know my efforting is part of the problem. I hope someone finds me who has a really sharp sword and a compassionate heart.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I had mystical experiences as a child and never felt that the world made much sense, nor that it was real in any true sense of the word. So I hated myself for not fitting into it since that seemed like what everyone else was doing better than I was. I started school at CIIS and began my won psychological and emotional healing. I started to sit retreats with Adyashanti in 2005. I found Jed McKenna after that and appreciated his rawness and absence of the flowery spiritual bullshit. I've found other teachers through the years who transmit this truth and who seem to live from this place. I have helped others along this path as a transpersonally oriented psychotherapist for fifteen years. That was seen through as an identity, a place of hiding about three or four years ago and since then I have left the bay area have been living different places letting life guide me as best as I can. Now I travel, I have a small online practice, and I pay close attention to experience moment to moment. I do inquiry, I meditate, I try to soften in places I have contraction, I use IFS to work with parts of me that hold trauma and feel disconnected from the whole. I feel less and less involved and connected to the mainstream dreamworld, at times this leaves me feeling really sad and alone but there is never regret. I see that for what it is, and I know the truth. I feel ready to live that truth.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[warissem]

Hi

Welcome to this forum, I will walk with you in this journey of seeing through the illusion of a separate self. During our dialog there is a need to respect some rules :

Commitment : you engage to be commited to this dialog, it means you check up once a day in the forum to give answers to my questions. If you cannot do it once a day, let me know.

Avoid all reading books, listening to audios or watching videos about spirituality, advaita, enlightenment, ... during this dialog. Forget all what you know about this subject.

Read the disclaimer text here viewtopic.php?f=16&t=221

Learn how to use the quote function here viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

If you agree with these, we can begin.

Thank you

Warissem

[dc74]

Commitment : you engage to be commited to this dialog, it means you check up once a day in the forum to give answers to my questions. If you cannot do it once a day, let me know.

I commit to checking up once a day to give answers to your questions, and if I cannot, I will let you know.

I will stop reading/listening/watching spiritual stuff during this process. I will endeavor to forget all I think I know.

I have read the disclaimer and learned how to use the quote function.

I agree with all of these.

Thank you very much.

[warissem]

Hi

Fine. Right now, do you think that you are a separate self ? How do you describe yourself ?

When you come here, what do you expect to happen for you ? What will you expect to change ? How do you the after seeing through the illusion of a separate self ?

Thank you

Warissem

[dc74]

Right now, do you think that you are a separate self ? How do you describe yourself ?

I don't think I am a separate self, but I often experience myself as a separate self. If I'm aware, I can relax myself into a state of non-separation, but I don't think that is the same as knowing. I'm not sure how I describe myself. I'm not sure what the question is asking.I still feel like I have a body, I'm managing my life as a person. I don't think I'm in control of very much. I don't know what I'm doing or where I'm going anymore, but I am trusting some process that seems to be moving me through life.

When you come here, what do you expect to happen for you ? What will you expect to change ? How do you the after seeing through the illusion of a separate self ?

I expect there will be some fundamental permanent shift of identification away from an "I" and instead feel a sense of oneness with life, of not being separate from anything around me. I expect not to feel this self-referential habit that keeps me at the center of my own experience. I expect for things to not feel as personal after seeing through the illusion of a separate self. I expect to be done with this game of seeking. I expect to feel more peace and just allowing feelings and thoughts to come and go. I expect to feel less fear, or at least have the fear feel less personal to me. There is some fundamental grip of survival I fear, some fear of death, of not-being, I hope for that to be gone on the other side of this. I think I'm scared all of the time. I hope to laugh more.

[warissem]

Hi

I don't think I am a separate self, but I often experience myself as a separate self.

Yes, it is normal when you are identifying to a body which looks separate from other objects and bodies.

If I'm aware, I can relax myself into a state of non-separation, but I don't think that is the same as knowing.

Yes, the knowing is everlasting but all experience has an end. It is good that you don't expect an extraordinary experience during this dialog or at the end of it, even if experiences can happen.

I'm not sure how I describe myself. I'm not sure what the question is asking.I still feel like I have a body, I'm managing my life as a person. I don't think I'm in control of very much. I don't know what I'm doing or where I'm going anymore, but I am trusting some hat process that seems to be moving me through life.

Yes, you used many times the word "I", what is "I" pointing to ?

I expect there will be some fundamental permanent shift of identification away from an "I" and instead feel a sense of oneness with life, of not being separate from anything around me.

There will be a shift in perspective : it could be permanent because what is seen cannot be unseen. The identification is not away form an "I" but away from a separate self, a person. Feeling oneness with life is not what is attended at the end of this dialog. You will see that there is no you to feel a sense of oneness with life or whatever. There is no you at the center to feel not separate of its surroundings.

I expect not to feel this self-referential habit that keeps me at the center of my own experience. I expect for things to not feel as personal after seeing through the illusion of a separate self. I expect to be done with this game of seeking. I expect to feel more peace and just allowing feelings and thoughts to come and go. I expect to feel less fear, or at least have the fear feel less personal to me. There is some fundamental grip of survival I fear, some fear of death, of not-being, I hope for that to be gone on the other side of this. I think I'm scared all of the time. I hope to laugh more.

A lot of expectations here, some are realistic others are less : fear of death disappears when there is no identification to the body. It does not happen in a finger's click.


Warissem

[dc74]

A lot of expectations here, some are realistic others are less : fear of death disappears when there is no identification to the body. It does not happen in a finger's click.

These feel more as hopes, I think. The strongest one is the body identification that leads to that primal grip I described, that fear of death or non-being. I am hopeful to not feel identified with the body.

Yes, you used many times the word "I", what is "I" pointing to ?

When I look, I do not see an "I", I don't see anything. When I look in my life there is an experience of life living me, but what still plays out is fear, especially of other people. An experience that I can be hurt at any time. Yesterday felt a visceral terror when i thought for a second a friend was upset with me. Still living through the eyes of others, frustrating.

There will be a shift in perspective : it could be permanent because what is seen cannot be unseen. The identification is not away form an "I" but away from a separate self, a person. Feeling oneness with life is not what is attended at the end of this dialog. You will see that there is no you to feel a sense of oneness with life or whatever. There is no you at the center to feel not separate of its surroundings.

Helpful distinction. One with life would imply a separate self to feel a oneness with life.

[warissem]

Hi

These feel more as hopes, I think. The strongest one is the body identification that leads to that primal grip I described, that fear of death or non-being. I am hopeful to not feel identified with the body.

Seeing through the illusion of a separate self is a beginning of a process of realization of our true nature. Dis identification from the body does not happen in a finger's click.

When I look, I do not see an "I", I don't see anything.

Yes

When I look in my life there is an experience of life living me, but what still plays out is fear, especially of other people. An experience that I can be hurt at any time. Yesterday felt a visceral terror when i thought for a second a friend was upset with me. Still living through the eyes of others, frustrating.

You have said above that you don't see an I then you say "life is living me". What is fear in direct experience, describe it as sensations in the body, thoughts arising, ...?

Would you describe this "me" which is living through eyes of others ?

Helpful distinction. One with life would imply a separate self to feel a oneness with life.

No, there is no separate self at the first place, there is no you, there never was, there will never be. What at your feelings when you read this ?

Warissem

[dc74]

You have said above that you don't see an I then you say "life is living me". What is fear in direct experience, describe it as sensations in the body, thoughts arising, ...?

I don't feel an "I" making decisions, the experience is that life is happening, or something is happening at least. Fear is a tightening in the chest, blurry vision, eyes moving about, heart beating faster, a feeling of lots of energy moving up through my body into my head, thoughts of having let down this person, thinking back to what I might have said and done. Thoughts directing me to gather more information. Thoughts frustrated I'm caught in something I know is not true.

Would you describe this "me" which is living through eyes of others ?

If others are not okay with him, he gets scared. When I look closely here, I cannot find him, I can describe a pattern of fear, a tightening of the heart, a tensing of the left shoulder and neck. He lives in a state of threat.

No, there is no separate self at the first place, there is no you, there never was, there will never be. What at your feelings when you read this ?

I feel sad, relieved, it feels true, like I've always known it, frustrated, like I'm still trapped in something I know is not true. Angry.

[warissem]

Hi

I don't feel an "I" making decisions, the experience is that life is happening, or something is happening at least.

Yes life is happening to .... no one.

Fear is a tightening in the chest, blurry vision, eyes moving about, heart beating faster,

All what is described is about sensations and there is a label "fear" sticked on them.

a feeling of lots of energy moving up through my body into my head,

Have you seen the energy moving or is it just a sensation in a head ? Is it your body ? Is it your head ?

thoughts of having let down this person, thinking back to what I might have said and done. Thoughts directing me to gather more information. Thoughts frustrated I'm caught in something I know is not true.

A lot of thoughts. Is there a thinker of thoughts ? Look at arising thoughts during five minutes and answer to these questions :

Is there someone making thoughts arise ?
Can you choose the thoughts when they arise ?
Can you stop thoughts from arising ?
Can you stop a thought in the middle ?

If others are not okay with him, he gets scared. When I look closely here, I cannot find him, I can describe a pattern of fear, a tightening of the heart, a tensing of the left shoulder and neck. He lives in a state of threat.

As I said in the beginning, the clue of this dialog is to Look at Direct experience : hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting, touching (sensations). In the basis of this clue, can you look at your sentence quoted above. Are there others outside of thought? Do you see "him" ? Is there "fear" outside of thought ?

I feel sad, relieved, it feels true, like I've always known it, frustrated, like I'm still trapped in something I know is not true. Angry.

There is no you to feel sad nor frustrated, do you see that with your eyes open ?

Warissem

[dc74]

All what is described is about sensations and there is a label "fear" sticked on them.

Right, in labeling it fear I am creating an "I" that is afraid. In just being with sensation there is simply sensations that come and go, correct?

Have you seen the energy moving or is it just a sensation in a head ? Is it your body ? Is it your head ?

Got it. More sensation that I'm creating a story from.

A lot of thoughts. Is there a thinker of thoughts ? Look at arising thoughts during five minutes and answer to these questions :

Is there someone making thoughts arise ?
Can you choose the thoughts when they arise ?
Can you stop thoughts from arising ?
Can you stop a thought in the middle ?

The answer to all of these questions is no. Another thought can stop a thought in the middle, I noticed that, with effort.

As I said in the beginning, the clue of this dialog is to Look at Direct experience : hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting, touching (sensations). In the basis of this clue, can you look at your sentence quoted above. Are there others outside of thought? Do you see "him" ? Is there "fear" outside of thought ?

Direct experience, yes. There are no others outside of me, I see that now. No fear, just the sensations. Would you suggest I try to stay in the field of direct experience all of the time? To stay in the world of hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting, touching and leave it there? To catch myself when I move into labeling and interpretation?

There is no you to feel sad nor frustrated, do you see that with your eyes open ?

I do see that. Here is what i notice: When the sensations/feelings get strong, the story comes in of "me" feeling "scared", I see the way this sequence happens. How can I just stay in the sensations/feelings without moving into interpretation and labeling? I catch it often, and can come back to the raw experience, but when it is strong I am not as good. Plus I can get numb sometimes, where I'm not feeling anything. I can also just notice the sensations that arise that I label "numb."

[warissem]

Hi

Right, in labeling it fear I am creating an "I" that is afraid. In just being with sensation there is simply sensations that come and go, correct?

Yes, there is labeling of "fear" and there is a thought "I" arising but there is no creating of an "I" outside of thoughts, do you see that ?

Got it. More sensation that I'm creating a story from.

Yes, there is automatic labeling of all appearances, that's OK to communicate but stories around thoughts and appearances are unworthy.

The answer to all of these questions is no.

Have you done the observation before giving the answer or have you answered from what you know ?

Another thought can stop a thought in the middle, I noticed that, with effort.

When there is observation of thoughts, you can notice that when a thought is seen it was already here. If you say that you can cut a thought in a middle, it means that you already know the other half.

Direct experience, yes. There are no others outside of me, I see that now. No fear, just the sensations. Would you suggest I try to stay in the field of direct experience all of the time? To stay in the world of hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting, touching and leave it there? To catch myself when I move into labeling and interpretation?

Yes, it is the clue to stay in the direct experience way. However, there is a go to thoughts if necessary : doing your job, communicate, ... The best exercise is asking the question "is there a me" doing things, involved here ? during your daily activities.

I do see that. Here is what i notice: When the sensations/feelings get strong, the story comes in of "me" feeling "scared",

Is it a story of you feeling scared or are you scared here now ? In any case, look at this "me" and describe it for me.

I see the way this sequence happens. How can I just stay in the sensations/feelings without moving into interpretation and labeling? I catch it often, and can come back to the raw experience, but when it is strong I am not as good. Plus I can get numb sometimes, where I'm not feeling anything. I can also just notice the sensations that arise that I label "numb."

Yes, you begin to get the clue of direct experience.

An exercise : go for a walk in a park or wherever, notice the colors, the shapes, the sounds, the smells, the tastes and describe what is going on.

Thank you

Warissem

[dc74]

Yes, there is labeling of "fear" and there is a thought "I" arising but there is no creating of an "I" outside of thoughts, do you see that ?

I do see that.

Have you done the observation before giving the answer or have you answered from what you know ?

I have. The thoughts just happen. It is all impersonal.
There seems to be cause and affect. When I wake up certain thoughts come. I see how my "I" is at affect of patterns of thoughts. Layers upon layers.

When there is observation of thoughts, you can notice that when a thought is seen it was already here. If you say that you can cut a thought in a middle, it means that you already know the other half.

Because by the time I cut a thought in the middle, the thought is already complete. There is no one putting attention anywhere, yet attention can be directed, and it seems like there is an "I" directing attention, but I cannot find this "I". Yes this "I" has habits, it has practices and is predictable, making it seem like "me" doing something. From direct experience this is not true, and there is a personality, a thing that has been formed over time that is familiar, and predictable in some ways and I see through it and am bored to tears of it, and who is bored, no one, the boredom is another label.

"is there a me" doing things, involved here ? during your daily activities.

Okay, will do this practice.

Is it a story of you feeling scared or are you scared here now ? In any case, look at this "me" and describe it for me.

It is a story, there are only sensations. When I stay in direct experiencing sometimes I get dizzy, disoriented, grabbing for something solid happens here, automatically, an impulse to reorient myself. I'm not sure what to do when the sensations get too intense, when I get dizzy.

An exercise : go for a walk in a park or wherever, notice the colors, the shapes, the sounds, the smells, the tastes and describe what is going on.

I will do this.

Thanks

David

[warissem]

Hi David

I have. The thoughts just happen. It is all impersonal.

Yes

There seems to be cause and affect.

Is there really a link between cause and effect ? If so can you say something about it ?

When I wake up certain thoughts come. I see how my "I" is at affect of patterns of thoughts. Layers upon layers.

Because by the time I cut a thought in the middle, the thought is already complete. There is no one putting attention anywhere, yet attention can be directed, and it seems like there is an "I" directing attention, but I cannot find this "I". Yes this "I" has habits, it has practices and is predictable, making it seem like "me" doing something. From direct experience this is not true, and there is a personality, a thing that has been formed over time that is familiar, and predictable in some ways and I see through it and am bored to tears of it, and who is bored, no one, the boredom is another label.

What is this "I" ? a sensation, a shape, a color, a smell, a taste, a thought ? You need to look all along the daily activities.

It is a story, there are only sensations. When I stay in direct experiencing sometimes I get dizzy, disoriented, grabbing for something solid happens here, automatically, an impulse to reorient myself. I'm not sure what to do when the sensations get too intense, when I get dizzy.

Is there you, an I, to be disoriented or confused ?

This is an exercise to do :

Please find a quiet place and a quiet time. Sit or lay down and relax. Close your eyes and relax.

Can you attend to sensation exclusively?
Not minding thought babbling about this and that?
Not minding thought labelling sensation for a bit?

Thought may tell: "I am lying here" or "My body is lying here" or "A body is lying here".
But could this be known from pure sensation?

Thought might suggest: "There is a soft pressure against the back".
But could you know about "pressure" or "back" from pure sensation?

Once arrived there, while ONLY attending to sensation, please have a look at the following questions:

Can be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a specific size, shape or weight?
Is there separation between the chair and the body ?
is there an inside and an outside of the body ?

Thank you

Warissem

[dc74]

What is this "I" ? a sensation, a shape, a color, a smell, a taste, a thought ? You need to look all along the daily activities.

Yes. I will focus on direct experience.

Is there really a link between cause and effect ? If so can you say something about it ?

When a toe is stubbed there is pain. I guess I could ask, how do I know it is a toe? And that there is pain? It is just what is happening. When a thought of my x-girlfriend arises there is a tension in the heart. There seems to be cause an effect, a relationship between events. This is how my "I" slips back in. It says, "You need me to make meaning of things like this so we can navigate this uncertain world." If "I" is not learning, there is a natural evolution that occurs that does not involve me. Life moves and evolves and responds without me. Life has a flow of its own. Is this correct?

Exercise done. From a place of pure sensation I can't know anything. When I am still all separation falls away. There is no inside and outside. There are no specifics of the body. No height, weight, or anything. Should I continue to practice this? To allow all things to fall away other than the raw sensations?