stopbitingmytail

[iignite]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
at times I can sense the inner dialog: "me" talking to "myself" as a baseless unreal "echo"/inner sound. The moment the sound gets related to an image (of me), I am back to "my self", in that moment I am convinced again that it was "me" hearing/seeing/beiing. In the gap/void which is not filled "I sense" the Real....

What are you looking for at LU?
....that the inner conviction/trust can be an undercurrent even in times of "identification" or seemingly lost inner connection to this void.
...that, after unconsciously projecting "enlightenment" onto the highest peak, wherein I submit defeat in this struggle to "reach"......I can see/sense - the immidiatcy (of LU) and availablitiy of this ("approach") for me.
It feels like a conflict: "I" looking for help for "desolving the I" and by doing so reenforcing the presumed reality of "I" - and somehow the hope that LU formulates the question, which I have not asked myself yet .
...looking for "the place" beyond or before concepts, ideas, presuppositions, preconcieved goals and the answer to the question: how do I know that "this is IT" or that I am in " this place" - not intellectually. - not knowing as knowlege but as inner conviction.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
may be a guide can show me, where I try to compromise
may be she/he can stop me, when I say "but......" - ("yes yes I know all this, but....")
may be she/he can guide me, when I get lost in dreaming/conceptualizing/projecting into future/hoping ....
may be she/he even can question me, when I only "believe" in "No-self" instead of the "sense-feltness" of this.....
may be a guide can corner "me" in a way i cannot do for myself. Actually, I am afraid of this happening, the "no-way-out" - it goes right to my heart.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
a long life of searching - years of beeing part of movements/groups related to different Masters/ traditions and studies thereof.
Looking back I am amazed, that all Masters/Guides I was deeply related to expressed the same truth in different ways (foremost through their presence) and each time I had the feeling, that I understood - yet looking back: how come I landed in this forum, how come I am still searching? - still forgetting - still postponing?
Is the quote of Ramana Maharshi the final verdict: "If it is meant to happen, it will happen, do whatever you like - if it is not meant to happen, do whatever you want, it will not happen"?
Oftentimes I feel like in "no-way-out" - or the Hanged Man in the Tarot - the end of the road without end......

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Anastacia42]

Hi iignite,

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.
Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you?

What time zone are you in, please?

Much love,

[iignite]

Hi, Stacy, happy you are here with me - can call me George...Central European Time (CET) which is GMT+1 - right now on an Island, where WIFI is not stable all the times, but I let you know, if there is delay...
I just jump right in with your questions:

How will life change?

n
will life change? "according to the eye of the beholder" - I will look at the scenerie of life as moving slow and quite.

What will be different?

the inner commentator will be more in repose, my yaketyyakety slowed down, there will be more hearing/seeing without naming, may be losing fear of getting lost in this nameless condition.

How will you change?

I will be more vulnerable to life - defenceless - loosing control - and gaining courage "to stand alone"

What will be different?

Things will be right as they are, may be a feeling of satisfaction from this "inner agreement" with life.

What is missing?

certainty is missing,
courage is missing, clearity is missing,
when I wake up as me/I in the morning - when the same old guy, who carried lots of frustration and desires wakes up with "himself"...

[Anastacia42]

Hi George,

I'm near Boulder, Colorado, US Mountain Time.

Did you read the Disclaimer & FAQ?

Your answers are mostly reasonable.

Now tell me what comes up when it's read there is no self, never has been, and never will be?


Much love,

[iignite]

Hi Stacy,
still getting used to the workings of the forum - missed this morning, that I got your post - I am learning....8hrs time diff. we have...

Did you read the Disclaimer & FAQ?

yes, what LU is not! yet hopes/projection into the future we have to tackle in due time, I think.
I am "white haired" meaning 18++.....may be as "crazy" and" stable" as most of us?

Now tell me what comes up when it's read there is no self, never has been, and never will be?

my Advaita-/and other knowlege aside: tears to my eyes, truth rings..., and too big to be comprehended,but: somehow there is still the mental process of "translating", "conceptualizing", what it means. And: how can I accept this, since I have not found out by myself! How can I find the answer when I get the answer presented beforehand! (one of my "buts").
On the more superficial level its freeing, spaciousness and a lightness and a distance to all thats happening in and around........Things are happening within this space and not "to me"....I feel a bit ashamed to talk like this, since its descriptiv, ramblings at the surface - but if I would realy know what I am talking about, I wouldn`t be here with you........

love George

[Anastacia42]

Hi George,

yet hopes/projection into the future we have to tackle in due time, I think.
I am "white haired" meaning 18++.....may be as "crazy" and" stable" as most of us?

I'm white-haired, too, at 61 Earth years. :)

There are only 2 things preventing anyone from seeing no self.

1. Fears,
2. Expectations.

Both are fictitious & take our focus away from the present moment, the here & now. Those first 4 questions were about expectations. Asking about no self is checking for fears.

tears to my eyes, truth rings.

This is excellent. If you follow those truth indicators, you'll be right on track.

Now, this is about how we will LOOK when replying to the pointers:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Loving,

[iignite]

Hi Stacy,

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

I want to say: yes, thats clear. But somehow the question is there: can there be experience without naming - (referencing) And the naming would be an add-on to the experience. Am I going off the rail with this ? but its nagging me....
Yet: I do not want to stray away from the simplicity of your outline - so please keep me ckecked.
george

[Anastacia42]

Hi George, you've got it.

can there be experience without naming
(referencing)
And the naming would be an add-on to the experience.

You tell me.

Is a preverbal baby experiencing? Without naming?

What about going to a foreign country and seeing unusual animals and unusual foods that you do not know the names for? Are you experiencing?

Loving,

[iignite]

Is a preverbal baby experiencing? Without naming?

there is experiencing without "baby" (baby only beeing "hardware" - the hardware beeing the receptors for stimuli, impressions - well, may be not only: what about the response to the smile of the mother? that seems more of an experience - a unitary movement in stimulus and response.

What about going to a foreign country and seeing unusual animals and unusual foods that you do not know the names for? Are you experiencing?

Any expression of surprise (wau!) - wonder, comparison, ("..its like... - beautiful - so big - so funny...- never seen...) would "kill" the experience -
Do you realy mean, that experience can be "in purity" (or "left alone") - and we can still talk about it? I feel cornered.
But yes: I can say I am experiencing - eyes wide open: unusual animals and unusual foods come in, at least for a split second.

Thank you Stacy

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

a unitary movement in stimulus and response.

I suppose you could call it that, but stimulus and response implies that there are 2 and not one which isn't the truth. We are wondering too far into philosophy and speculation. That won't help. We need to focus on some exercises.

Do you realy mean, that experience can be "in purity" (or "left alone") - and we can still talk about it? I feel cornered.

Let's see how it is for you once you can SEE there is no self. Talking about it is useless, you may have noticed.

Let's distinguish between Actual (or Direct) Experience and stories.

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[iignite]

Hi Stacy
thanks for getting me back...

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

- mostly hearing: chirping, wind in trees,flie-sound and stops (on my arm) , windchime,chirping on different sides of me,
airplane high up, background wind....ckoockoo....leaf` s noises.....ears ringing.....scraching noise of fingernails....
all just sound


- seeing: many shades of green, some orange dots , blue, setting sunlight in leaves - leaves bending, movements , chicken walking passed,reflection of my face on screen, moving from breathing in and out
seeing stuff on table,my hands left-right of laptop,cursor blinking...all just forms/images

-feeling: coolness on skin, wind on skin, sunray warm, movement of wind , tension on forehead, lower back on deckchair impression, heartbeat moving laptop, feeling throat ....all just sensations

- thought about my exercise (not doing it right) - thought about laying here.....thought about wind , cold,.....just thought

- smelling some dryness - just a smell

- tasting olives - all different - taste

I will continue over the next days with this .....
it is not new to slow down and recieve impressions this way - but what makes me delay this attention , forget it,override it, disregard it?
love from g.

[Anastacia42]

Hi George,

I'm checking quickly on a break. It makes a difference to copy the EXACT form of the example in the exercise.

Your answers are correct, but the format makes it harder for me to see that - and possibly harder for you to meditate and experience the pointer. One item per line is far easier and helps you to repeat the experience of noticing the Direct/Actual Experience.

You don't have to re-do this, but there is a reason I highlighted EXACT so much.

I'll reply more later.

Thank you!

[Anastacia42]

Hi George

The point of this pointer is to notice what is Actual (or Direct) Experience.

I will continue over the next days with this .....
it is not new to slow down and recieve impressions this way - but what makes me delay this attention , forget it,override it, disregard it?

No, but is it new to see which part is happening & which part is a made up story?

We aren't trying to do this all the time, so you can "delay this attention, forget it, override it, disregard it" as much as you like.

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is SEEN.

Loving,

[iignite]

Hi Stacy,

I had doubts about the correct format......

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

no direct experience - image making of a colour

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

No, only a secondary (mind)activity correlates the label with an image/idea

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Label Green has no one-to-one correspondence with reality. yes, the label is pointing to s.th. other than whats here now -
( here I am vague, somehow guessing, not capturing the question totally)

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

green is associated with the experience of red as a "negation of red", not as experience, but as concept. If the experience of red has a "base", the label green is baseless -just idea/thought.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Here I had a good laugh, not quite sure why, but I sense s.th. - redness stays unaffected red (also here I have the feeling, that I only answered/understood 70%)

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

"reality" stays untouched by labels, the experience of redness stays "alone" - no qualifyer changes the experience.

Clearity and vagueness go back and forth
looking forward for tomorrow
george

[Anastacia42]

Good afternoon, George,

You've got it!

the label green is baseless -just idea/thought.

Yes, that is the point of the exercise. Labels are merely ideas, thoughts - NOT Direct Experience.

"reality" stays untouched by labels, the experience of redness stays "alone" - no qualifier changes the experience.

That is it *exactly* You are following this much better than you "think" (ha ha) you are!

So here is a follow up to that exercise:

Friend/Stranger

Bring up a thought about a character labeled "friend."

Then bring up a thought about a character labeled "stranger."

Compare these thoughts.

Is there a difference in these thoughts?

Is there a true difference or is it just different content?

Now, bring up a thought about a character labeled "friend."

After that, look at a thought about the character labelled "me.”

Is there a difference?

Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character?"

Let me know what is found.

Loving,