Mutual inquiry: separate self

[Camus]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Understand that LU is a guided experience through daily email engagements to probe into direct experience and the delusion of a separate "self."

What are you looking for at LU?
Personal experience into "knowing" the direct experience of "no self" has been gradually experienced over many years and from intense periods of meditation and engagement with a teacher. Yet something remains...

There is a longing to really experience "satori:" a transformative, clear realization....a realization where the "self" comes to a complete end and there is absolutely no doubt.

So, am looking to see through this delusion of a definitive realization that is not complete. To honestly probe and see through the separate "self" that still remains. Giving my all to another (a guide), to openly explore it together, honestly and thoroughly.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
An honest and open mutual inquiry into the matter of "self." Cutting through any remaining intellectualized, conceptualized or discriminating understandings. A thorough probing beyond remaining conceptual notions.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
- 10 years of a dedicated Rinzai Zen practice. Currently 1-3 hours per day meditation; once a month weekend retreats; once or twice a year intensive international weeklong retreats; two month-long resident retreats to a hermitage in Japan, including sesshins in monasteries. I've worked with a teacher over this entire timeframe, who spent over 40 years in monasteries in Japan.
- Experience with koan and shikantaza practices. Many years working with a fundamental koan of "who am I?"
- 15 years previous meditation practice (self-guided with occasional Tibetan group sits)
- 2 years full-time dedicated missionary service (Christian/Mormon)
- A physicist by profession (yes, an innate and trained skeptic!)
- University studies and degrees in physics, engineering, philosophy and mathematics
- Read several hundreds books on spiritual inquiry, philosophical inquiry, scientific inquiry and buddhism, Zen, Chan and meditation practices.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Ronaldo]

Hello and welcome to Liberation Unleashed!
My name is Ron and I'll be happy to guide you through your inquiry if you'd like.

For the duration of this inquiry, please let go of all books, youtube videos and the likes related to enlightenment, spiritual search, personal growth, or even reading other threads, it will only add confusion.

We are going to be exploring beliefs, and so you don’t need to believe anything I say, quite the contrary, you have to verify everything I point to experimentally.

The key ingredients are honesty and curiosity. Please post daily, and if you can't or need more time, just let me know.
I tend to ask a lot of questions, but you only need to answer the ones in blue, the others are pointers to look into.

Please also confirm that you've read and agree to our disclaimer at
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/reg ... isclaimer/

Agreed?

An honest and open mutual inquiry into the matter of "self." Cutting through any remaining intellectualized, conceptualized or discriminating understandings. A thorough probing beyond remaining conceptual notions.

Excellent, we'll do just that.

Yet something remains...

Can you describe what that is, or how it feels?
What are you really looking for?
What will be gained?

regards
Ron

[Camus]

Hi Ron,

Thank you for your warm and informative welcome. I look forward to exploring this topic and the experience with you.

Please also confirm that you've read and agree to our disclaimer at
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/reg ... isclaimer/

Agreed?

Yes, of course.

Yet something remains...
Can you describe what that is, or how it feels?
What are you really looking for?
What will be gained?

...a smile, yet not having an answer. Let me try.

"It" is something that I can't really touch, yet it seems to come and go. I believe it is some "notion" that there is something more that's needed. Perhaps comparing my experience with some of the great masters. The path for me has been an "undoing." Early on, much effort was exerted into meditation. Something changed...perhaps so subtly that I didn't notice it for years. The practice changed, the search ended, yet something deeper was being seen and probed. A teacher has pushed even harder, encouraging an effort "to completely come to the end of this self." So I have gone back, but cannot find a thing.

Within my practice tradition there is often a defining experience. It's something a teacher looks for. To have doubt is often an indication that something still remains and it is unseen. From years of a practice there is a strong un-conflicted "state of mind and being" of knowing and not knowing (a wonderful dichotomy), completely free of questions, answers and gaining a thing, yet here I am sliding back.

So beyond the words, what is actually being felt and experienced? Where is "this" now, here? Just sensations of senses, thoughts, and empty, peaceful gaps that can't be explained.

[Ronaldo]

Thanks for your reply. I didn't see a direct reply to two questions (please do reply to each and not in bulk).

What are you really looking for? I.e. what is all this effort for? Why bother?

What will be gained? If you find that which is missing, how would life change?

Thanks you for taking the time :)
Ron

[Camus]

What are you really looking for? I.e. what is all this effort for? Why bother?

To explore the experience of "self" together.
Not looking for an effort, or something or have, but an honest probing into the "self."

Why bother? To truly see into one's true nature, to see without a "script of self" that grasps for understanding, meaning or attachment...how incredibly liberating!

What will be gained? If you find that which is missing, how would life change?

Not a thing, yet without an objectified identity.
Still the same person(s)/universe, but without the identification of a unique, separate self. Yes, would still need work. The world would still be as it is, how could it be different?

[Ronaldo]

OK, good answers, thank you.
Your "spiritual path" has been long and substantial, often times along the way one can also accumulate spiritual junk, so if you're game, what I'd like to do is to assume nothing is known, and just start fresh. Drop assumptions and what you have seen before and know, because assumptions and expectations are in the way of seeing and may come with big blind spots. The only thing that matters is what is seen now, at this moment, what you have or haven't seen in the past has either made a shift, or is now a memory and a belief.

Do you feel any resistance to that idea?


So my first request is that you sit down for a bit, and watch carefully:
What is there?

Sounds (from around you, from your body)
Sights (even if your eyes are closed)
sensations in the hands, arms, feet, head etc., weight of your body, maybe an itch..
smells (may be faint)
tastes (may be faint)
thoughts - these appear as words, images, sounds (a tune, a voice) and any of the senses. More often than not, thoughts appear in streams that tell stories about the past and future, what I should and shouldn't have done etc. Would you agree?

1. please provide one or more items that you noticed on each of these items.
2. Can you find anything else? Anything at all that isn't on the list?
Don't let anything escape because this list is all that is here to experience, so be very thorough.

[Camus]

...so if you're game, what I'd like to do is to assume nothing is known, and just start fresh. Drop assumptions and what you have seen before and know, because assumptions and expectations are in the way of seeing and may come with big blind spots. The only thing that matters is what is seen now, at this moment, what you have or haven't seen in the past has either made a shift, or is now a memory and a belief.

Do you feel any resistance to that idea?

not at all

So my first request is that you sit down for a bit, and watch carefully:
What is there?

Sounds (from around you, from your body)
Sights (even if your eyes are closed)
sensations in the hands, arms, feet, head etc., weight of your body, maybe an itch..
smells (may be faint)
tastes (may be faint)
thoughts - these appear as words, images, sounds (a tune, a voice) and any of the senses. More often than not, thoughts appear in streams that tell stories about the past and future, what I should and shouldn't have done etc. Would you agree?

1. please provide one or more items that you noticed on each of these items.
2. Can you find anything else? Anything at all that isn't on the list?
Don't let anything escape because this list is all that is here to experience, so be very thorough.

Sounds (from around you, from your body)

sound of rain on the leaves; sound of car's passing, their tires amplifying the sound; call of birds, the cats walking on the floor; the distance sound of an airplane passing, the gentle subtle breath; a slight numbness in my toes on my left foot; cat on my lap purring

Sights (even if your eyes are closed)

the floor; the rug, the cat lying in his bed; hands, legs; another cat next to my now, looking up...her wide open, green eyes, her pupils dilated and black, and now her on my lap, her paws across my waist.

sensations in the hands, arms, feet, head etc., weight of your body, maybe an itch..

the touch at the tips of fingers typing, a gentle tingling sensation; a twitch in my neck; sensation of my back against the couch, left shoulder more pronounced than right

smells (may be faint)

the smell of wet cat fur (she had drunk from a trickle in the bathtub and I rubbed her down with some water, she loves this); the gentle smell of pine soaked by the rain; a faint lingering smell of paint (neighbors)

tastes (may be faint)

the lingering taste of morning breath; the lingering taste of a drink of water; a faint lingering taste of last night spaghetti, a bit of garlic

thoughts - these appear as words, images, sounds (a tune, a voice) and any of the senses. More often than not, thoughts appear in streams that tell stories about the past and future, what I should and shouldn't have done etc. Would you agree?

thoughts of writing this...; thoughts of a movie we saw last night; thoughts of the day ahead and yesterday. Thoughts of rain continuing or not. Thoughts that gave some identity to the birds; thoughts giving identity to each cat (behavior, color, form). Yes, they come and go and give some form to what is being experienced.

Can you find anything else? Anything at all that isn't on the list?

an awareness that experiences all this, and moments that are empty, unknown, unobjectifiable

[Ronaldo]

Thanks for the detailed descriptions, sounds like a lovely cat :)

..a slight numbness in my toes on my left foot

That was listed in the sound section :)

Can you find anything else? Anything at all that isn't on the list?

an awareness that experiences all this, and moments that are empty, unknown, unobjectifiable

Find a constant sound or look at an object.
Can you find an awareness that experiences? Or is that a conclusion based on an assumption, a concept?


I'd like you to sit again (always do the actual exercise before replying, even if you know the answer).
How does attention shift between the sounds, sights, thoughts, smells etc? What shifts the attention?

[Camus]

Find a constant sound or look at an object.
Can you find an awareness that experiences? Or is that a conclusion based on an assumption, a concept?

...the caw of a crow. It's heard. Any thought of it simply conceptualizes it. Even the cognitive moment of recognizing it as a crow is conceptual and not experience.

I'd like you to sit again (always do the actual exercise before replying, even if you know the answer).
How does attention shift between the sounds, sights, thoughts, smells etc? What shifts the attention?

There is no shifting of "attention" between whatever is sensed. Any "shifting attention" that is noticed is intentionally created, conceptual, thought-based.

[Ronaldo]

Great.

Now we're going to take a good look at thoughts. Again, even if you've seen these before, no matter, play close attention, look carefully and do it many times or as many as it takes to be completely sure.
And please provide clear answers to each question, just as it comes out of direct experience, I like simplicity.


Can you predict your next thought?
How do you make a thought appear (or, how do you give birth to a thought)?
where are the thoughts coming from, and where are they going to?
Could you have only pleasant thoughts for say a few minutes?
Can you stop having thoughts?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Can you stop a thought in the middle?

Regards
Ron

[Camus]

Can you predict your next thought?

No. Thoughts come and go, just like sense perceptions. If I focus on them or give them some attention, then they become conceptual or attach to some "script" and can continue. My experience is that by focusing or giving them attention, I can turn them into endless dialogues. These dialogues can be predictable.

How do you make a thought appear (or, how do you give birth to a thought)?

They come without effort. Only the conceptualization of a thought or some personal script can be willfully induced.

where are the thoughts coming from, and where are they going to?

Any thought to their origination or end is just conceptualizing them. I have no idea.

Could you have only pleasant thoughts for say a few minutes?

No. A pleasant thought appears just like any other thought or sense perception. If I focus on it, then a conceptualization of the thought can continue. My experience is that without conceptualizing any thought, there is no difference between a pleasant thought and an unpleasant thought.

Can you stop having thoughts?

No. That would be inducing some willful effort and conceptualization.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No. However, my experience is, that without giving them attention, the "noise floor" of the chattering of thoughts can diminish substantially. With an openness and turning to the source of the thoughts, thoughts and perception move to the background.

Can you stop a thought in the middle?

No. Only the "conceptual script" that becomes attached to the thought can be stopped. By becoming aware that the thought has become extended with conceptual thinking, the conceptualization stops.

[Ronaldo]

No. Thoughts come and go, just like sense perceptions.

Exactly.

My experience is that by focusing or giving them attention, I can turn them into endless dialogues. These dialogues can be predictable.

You are clearly believing that you have some control over thoughts, and you say you can predict the dialogue. Is that true, or is that another thought that tells you that you can?
Let's dive in to this, notice the thoughts and don't fall for their explanation, rather observe what actually takes place.

It's essential to be very clear about thoughts, they are creating the story we call self, my story.
So either you do something to make them happen, or you don't.

Here is a topic: "black cats aren't like other cats", now please "think" about this for a moment before you read further.

Do you see thoughts coming up with supporting or opposing arguments? Maybe both?
Do you have any control over this process?
Note if there are thoughts claiming that you do, but observe the appearance of thoughts.
When does this end? Are you deciding to end it, or it just ends?


Let's look at another example to see if you are making choices and picking thoughts.
Is there a selection process that can be controlled?
Please follow each step and do it, slowly, and very carefully.

Pick a country
Got one?


I don't like that one, pick another please.
Got it?


Let's dissect each step and examine it:
1. a thought came out of the blue and said "England" (or whatever).
Did you choose this? Or was it just what came?


2. I asked you to change your selection, so there might have been what seemed like a selection process.
Say England and Germany and USA came up, but for some reason Pakistan didn't.
was that limited group of countries selected by you?
did you decide not to include Pakistan?

3. a new choice was made, say England, and now another thought offers an explanation "I love English tea" or whatever it is.

Did you observe free choice made?
Did you observe an actual thinking process?
Did you do anything at all for these thoughts to appear?

You can do it again and again.

Are you choosing to focus on the thoughts?
Can you find a faculty of choosing anything?

[Camus]

Here is a topic: "black cats aren't like other cats", now please "think" about this for a moment before you read further.

Do you see thoughts coming up with supporting or opposing arguments? Maybe both?

Do you have any control over this process?

No, the thoughts arise

Note if there are thoughts claiming that you do, but observe the appearance of thoughts.

When does this end? Are you deciding to end it, or it just ends?

The thoughts come and go. There is no controlling them.

Let's look at another example to see if you are making choices and picking thoughts.
Is there a selection process that can be controlled?
Please follow each step and do it, slowly, and very carefully.

Pick a country
Got one?


I don't like that one, pick another please.
Got it?


Let's dissect each step and examine it:
1. a thought came out of the blue and said "England" (or whatever).

Did you choose this? Or was it just what came?

It came without choice.

2. I asked you to change your selection, so there might have been what seemed like a selection process.
Say England and Germany and USA came up, but for some reason Pakistan didn't.

was that limited group of countries selected by you?

no

did you decide not to include Pakistan?

no

3. a new choice was made, say England, and now another thought offers an explanation "I love English tea" or whatever it is.

Did you observe free choice made?

yes

Did you observe an actual thinking process?

no

Did you do anything at all for these thoughts to appear?

no

Are you choosing to focus on the thoughts?

no

Can you find a faculty of choosing anything?

no

[Ronaldo]

Hi (what should I call you?)

Did you observe free choice made?

yes

Your reply here makes no sense, please elaborate where you found free choice made.

And your replies were just yes/no which is fine, but I need to know what all this triggers, if anything, so please share more about the experience and how it feels.

P.S.
Please only quote my questions, not the whole thread. I usually do this in a text editor and then paste it in, the site can sometimes act up and you may lose your work.

Thanks,
Ron

[Camus]

Hi Ron,

Camus is fine.

Your reply here makes no sense, please elaborate where you found free choice made.
Did you observe free choice made?

no, a free choice is another concept.

Where am I in all this? It's good to go through this process with you, Ron. I do find myself defaulting to "learned" processes and methods, such as watching thoughts, coming back to the breath, then turning inward to the source of the thoughts. That too, can be conceptualized. Thank you.