Guide me

[Vortex]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I don't really understand it. Deep down we all know that 'we are' and our whole lifes circle around ourselfs but on close examination no such thing can be found in any way. If body can can easily verify body through the 5 senses and mind can easily verify mind by thinking about mind then why is it so hard for the self to somehow verify self???

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for likeminded people. For people who like me have at some point in their life realised that there is something really really wrong with this 'self' and have done serious work searching for the truth.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect some kind of mentorship. I expect dialogue with someone who has found the truth abot why this 'self' can not be found. I expect to be shown as they say it: 'where to look but not what to look for'

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have read many many books on the subject and in the beginning every book brought more clarity but with time this clarity vanished and I found myself in the fog again. I have been interested in yoga & meditation for a long time and have been practicing more or less regularly for the last few years. I have also tried 'psychoactive plants' and have had increadible insights during such sessions.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[JonathanR]

Hello Vortex,

Welcome to the Gateless Gate.

Thanks for your introduction which I read with interest. I'm offering to point to no self for you.

I'm going to be bold and assume that you will wish to get started investigating straight away? In which case I already have a question for you. You said:

I don't really understand it. Deep down we all know that 'we are' and our whole lifes circle around ourselfs but on close examination no such thing can be found in any way. If body can can easily verify body through the 5 senses and mind can easily verify mind by thinking about mind then why is it so hard for the self to somehow verify self???

What is your current understanding of what 'you' are?


Speak soon,

Jon

[Vortex]

Hi Jon

I had to wait for some time here before you came by and during that time I read the book G Gatecrashers like it is suggested. I also went through few of the threads of other members and I actually think I got it.

What is your current understanding of what 'you' are?

"I" is just a story that has no reality to it and this is actually very easy to verify if one just looks carefully at what can and what can not be experienced.

[JonathanR]

Hi

. I had to wait for some time here before you came by and during that time I read the book G Gatecrashers like it is suggested.

Yes. Sorry about that wait. The forum is very busy at the moment. But good news that you read Gateless Gatecrashers.

. I also went through few of the threads of other members and I actually think I got it.

Sounds great. Was there a particular moment or exercise or question that tipped 'you' over the edge (so to speak)? If there was such a monent let me know what it was?

. "I" is just a story that has no reality to it and this is actually very easy to verify if one just looks carefully at what can and what can not be experienced.

That is a very clear statement.

Here's, a question though; what makes things happen? For example, walking down a road or writing an essay? How do those happen without a 'self'?

[Vortex]

Was there a particular moment or exercise or question that tipped 'you' over the edge (so to speak)?

I would better say there were "particular moments" and those were the moments when I read about others who were been asked to look at what they actually experience and what stories they make of it. Every time I read about it I felt a little click inside that made me stop for a while and do the same and every time there was a little "aha, that's what is reality and that's what is fiction". Then it was the Friday last week that I woke up in the morning and things were all the same and yet entirely different now. Life was going on in the usual way but there was no one to worry about it. I was in a kind of light and pleasant trance or bliss the whole day which is now gone but the sensation of cargo being dropped still continues.

what makes things happen? For example, walking down a road or writing an essay? How do those happen without a 'self'?

Well "separate thing" is just a story like the story of "separate self" isn't it? There is nothing in reality that is separate from it's environment. And the environment is life itself that unfolds in it's own natural way where everything is in perfect harmony with everything else no matter how chaotic it may appear.

Walking down a road may happen because the sensation of hunger in the stomach was felt and one is now on the way to get some food. Or maybe because the sound of music was heard and felt pleasant sensation was felt so one is now on the way to get more of that. Writing an essay would happen because it was seen and heard that teacher or supervisor required it. There is the stimulus that comes through the senses and there is the reaction of the brain that knows how to react because it has either learned it in past experience or inherited it through ages of evolution.

The so called "things" happen in natural connection/progression and are not really separate just like the waves are not separate from the ocean.

[JonathanR]

Hi Vortex

. I was in a kind of light and pleasant trance or bliss the whole day which is now gone but the sensation of cargo being dropped still continues.

Nice :-). Actually, lovely!

. The so called "things" happen in natural connection/progression and are not really separate just like the waves are not separate from the ocean.

Now I am really smiling.

For the sake of thoroughness do you mind if I ask you a series of questions now? The questions are somewhat routine but important,, in that they can help us highlight anything that isn't already clear and help me to see if further clarifying questions are needed.

Let me know if you're ready and I will send these.

Jon

[Vortex]

Yes, go ahead Jon!

[JonathanR]

Hi

By the way, did I ask you if you'd prefer me to use a different name or are you happy with 'Vortex'?

Here are six questions. You don't have to tackle these all together if you'd prefer to split them into two lots of three.

Now, you may have come across these, or very similar questions before? Please be sure to answer from what's actually 'seen', right here and now. If there's anything here that seems to require referencing memories of read or heard nondual teachings (rather than immediate experience), please notice that and let me know? Have fun :-)...

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Thank you,


Jon

[Vortex]

Hi Jon
Calling me Vortex is fine.

Please be sure to answer from what's actually 'seen', right here and now.

Understood.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No and no.

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

Just an idea that is believed to be true and whole bunch of other beliefs are piled up on it.

Now the search is over.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels quite like dropping a huge backpack when reaching the mountain top. Very pleasant and liberating.

[Vortex]

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

As already said, there were bits rather than single bit. Everytime I read how people were being asked to actually look at their experience instead of fictionalise and narrate about their belief systems I did the same and there was an "aha" moment.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

The body/mind is just an incredible bio-computer with an operating system that is result of long ages of evolution. It constantly updates by contact with the surrounding environment and records all that is important for it's functioning. When decision needs to be made it is made by the brain based on what is already recorded there and by trial & error algorithm already tested in the past so no self is needed for the decision to happen. Choice is just different word for decision. Intention, free will and choice are just beliefs that are piled up on the belief of self and therefore same kind of illusions. Control is the same but based on the observation that our body can influence the external environment.

There are really no "things". We just give names to what appears stable and separate to us and then create further stories about it but all that is an illusion. All the "things" are just different shades of life which happens naturally and is constantly changing. Everything is in contact with everything else therefore is influenced and influencing everything else and that's how "things" happen.

My favourite coffee cut seems to be one and the same everyday but, when I poor hoot coffee in, it it's temperature increases and that is clear sign that even it that is not alive changes in some simple way.

The winter is almost over and I don't need new winter shoes but friend of mine brought me to a discount store and there I saw an amazing last pair of boots with 90% of discount so I bought them. It happened because first I got in contact with my friend, then I got in visual contact with the boots and their price and my brain almost immediately made the decision because based on previous recorded experience brain knows that another winter will come, I have no boots, the brand is high quality and 90% discount is a very good deal. No need for self in all that.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

If there is no "self" there is no one to be held responsible or accountable but likes attract likes and the other way around so we suffer and get rewarded as result of our actions.

I did lightly crash my car few days ago but blaming my-"self" for that and feeling bad about it would just be drowning deeper in the magic circle of limiting beliefs. I was polite to the other person and (as likes attract likes) he responded politely so we were over quickly. Whatever happened it already happened and my brain already knows how to fix it so it will be fixed and that's all about it. Life is so much easier without the "self" to be blamed and held responsible.

6) Anything to add?

In case all the above is fine I sam open to explore the possibility of becoming a guide so other new members won't need to wait for one as long as I did.

[JonathanR]

Hi Vortex

Great answers. Thank you. I just have one or two questions...

. If there is no "self" there is no one to be held responsible or accountable but likes attract likes and the other way around so we suffer and get rewarded as result of our actions.

How do you mean 'likes attract likes'? Could you explain how that works or a bit more about what you mean?

Who, or what is it that suffers?

Oh. Great that you might like to guide! Let's get through this part of the process first, but great idea! . Yes it is a pity so many have to wait for a long time for a guide..

Thanks

Jon

[Vortex]

Hi Jon

How do you mean 'likes attract likes'?

That's very simple and is just like the example I gave with my coffee cup - hot drink would make the cup hot and the opposite. By attraction I mean that a coffee cup is most likely to be used for coffee and very unlikely for beer or wine. The same applies for living beings - if one is polite to another it is likely for him/her to face back politeness.

Who, or what is it that suffers?

By suffering I mean pain (or unpleasant physical sensation if I have to pay attention to my vocabulary) that is amplified by the illusion of "self" and all other illusions tied to it.

The difference would be:

Pain: "Ouch.. ok, whatever"

Suffering: "Ooooooouch.. God damn it, why does this always happen to ME!? Why, why, why, whyyyyyy.."

I can elaborate further but I guess this is enough to illustrate what I mean by attraction and suffering.

[JonathanR]

Hi Vortex

Thanks for elaborating. It is my job to be thorough enough. For that reason I will now invite some other guides to take a look at our brief conversation. This is for the simple reason that the attention of several guides can sometimes throw up really helpful questions at this stage.

They may take a day or two or three to respond but I will keep you posted.

Speak later,

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hello Vortex

Two guides have replied and have given us some things to investigate. Do give them some attention please?

You said:

. When decision needs to be made it is made by the brain based on what is already recorded there and by trial & error algorithm already tested in the past so no self is needed for the decision to happen. Choice is just different word for decision. Intention, free will and choice are just beliefs that are piled up on the belief of self and therefore same kind of illusions. Control is the same but based on the observation that our body can influence the external environment."

- how do you know memories are stored in the brain?

- What is the evidence that you have a brain?

Jon

[Vortex]

Wow, I must have quite a big self to earn the attention of 3 guides!

Alright guides, here's the deal - I am obviously still in storyland and you know better than me this will probably never end but let's see if we can bring it down to the bearable minimum.

As far as direct experience is concerned I can't confirm it if memories are stored in the brain or some other even more mysterious place like the Akashik records or the Buddha womb so I see no other choice but to admit that all the mentioned are just stories and memories seem to come from nowhere.

No evidence for having brain either except through deduction but I guess that's way too deep in storyland that we can afford to go in the scope of this forum.

So bottom line - spontaneous actions are experienced and stories called "decisions" come later for the purpose of justification or judgement of the nonexistent self.

How does that sound?