Deepening awakening

[Veronique]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Stopping and seeing again and again that everything is that, I am that whether I am aware of it or not. What I am is everything whatever it feels, there is no inside and outside, no separation. Only now exactly as it is, not a now between past and future there is no time. There is no one, only that what is.

What are you looking for at LU?
Deepening this understanding especially when there is identification with emotions, and expectations from life. Seeing that this is also life playing...
Letting go of any kind of search, letting things be what they are.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect clarity, exchanges, totally letting go of wanting things to be different. I can see that having regular exchanges with someone who has clarity on who he is, helps me to focus again and again on what is, letting what is what is...

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I read spiritual books at 16, took mushroom when I was 18 it opened everything, after that I went to India, Bodhgaya, Arunachala, Auroville etc.
Went 12 times to India after the first time, met a non-dual teacher i followed during 12 years. Since then I engaged in a therapy to give place to things I was trying to escape from with spirituality, but non duality has always been the only thing that gives sens to this world.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Ronaldo]

Hello and welcome to Liberation Unleashed
My name is Ron and I'll be happy to guide you through your inquiry if you'd like.

Looks like you've been around the spiritual block for a bit 😃! So for the duration of this inquiry, please let go of all books, youtube videos and the likes related to enlightenment, spiritual search, personal growth, or even reading other threads, it will only add confusion.

We are going to be exploring beliefs, you don’t need to believe anything I say, quite the contrary, you have to verify everything I point to experimentally.

Please post daily, and if you can't or need more time, just let me know.
Agreed?

Stopping and seeing again and again that everything is that, I am that whether I am aware of it or not. What I am is everything whatever it feels, there is no inside and outside, no separation. Only now exactly as it is, not a now between past and future there is no time. There is no one, only that what is.

Are these statements coming from something you see, feel or believe?
What would you say is missing?
What do you expect would happen if all that is realized?

I am that whether I am aware of it or not

Who is that "I" that is aware of it or not?


Regards,
Ron

[Veronique]

Thank you, Ron, for your message. I don’t speak very well English. I will try to make it as clear as possible.
Yes, I agree to post daily. I am very happy to do it and that you are willing to guide me!

To answer your questions:
- When I look, it is obvious there is no one. And at the same time, I am sensible to everything, and emotional. I have the idea this should be different.
- I see again and again that there is no one but I still feel something is missing, but I cannot say what. Maybe the idea that it should be clear all the time…
- Right now, nothing is missing. Only the idea that anything should be different makes me feel sometimes something is missing. Fear of lack makes me think sometimes something should be different.
- Nothing will happen, the idea that something should happen is the problem. All is happening right now, it is not possible another way. The future does not exist, it is just a thought.
- The I that is aware is “what is” is empty and full at the same time and it is pointless speaking about it, it is a total mystery, a wonder. Everything is that…

Hope you can understand what I write.

Have a nice evening,
Véronique

[Ronaldo]

Hello Véronique,
Your English is way better than my French, it will do just fine :)

I'd like to ask you to use the quote function around my questions when answering,
You simply paste my question, select the text, and click the “Quote" button above the text edit field
For a demo see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

When I look, it is obvious there is no one. And at the same time, I am sensible to everything, and emotional. I have the idea this should be different.

The idea that things should be different when awakened, that you will cease to be emotional, or overly sensitive is just another belief or expectation based on how some spiritual leaders present themselves. In fact, the so called personality hardly changes when the self is seen through. You see, that person, that "me" was in fact never there, and yet life went on as it would, so why would anything change when it's realized?

I see again and again that there is no one but I still feel something is missing, but I cannot say what. Maybe the idea that it should be clear all the time…

Let's find out.

Only the idea that anything should be different makes me feel sometimes something is missing. Fear of lack makes me think sometimes something should be different.

OK, so there is some resistance to what IS, although you understand or see that it's irrational to resist what is, it still takes place. Even when the self is seen through, resistance and other forms of suffering do not just end, there are many beliefs and patterns that need to be seen, and that can take a lifetime. These can be addressed with further investigation, which is essentially further disassociation from beliefs.

R: What do you expect would happen if all that is realized?

V: Nothing will happen, the idea that something should happen is the problem. All is happening right now, it is not possible another way. The future does not exist, it is just a thought.

Yes, there is only ever this eternal now, and expectations are a problem, but notice, aren't you using this as a way to bypass expectations?
In other words, "future thoughts are pointless - so I dismiss them", that doesn't really work though, you cannot just adopt a thought that you like to believe in, can you? "I will always be loving and happy" - we all try, and we all fail :).
Having said that, it is indeed good to try and drop any expectations and just see what comes up!

Thank you for the answers
do you feel any resistance to my replies?
Are you ready to start the investigation?


Regards
Ron

[Veronique]

Good morning Ron,

I am so touched to have this kind of guidance, for free. Are all the people guiding on this web site volunteer ?
It very helpful as it gives me focus. No words to express my gratitude

do you feel any resistance to my replies?

I will copy and paste your replies and tell you how I feel about them. Globally I don't feel any resistance, what you say matches with how I see things.

why would anything change when it's realized?

Nothing changes and at the same I have the idea that the habit of "grasping and wanting things to be different" might slowly go away as it is already the case, especially since a year when I really saw that what I have been looking for 30 years, has always been there. Still it feels as if it comes and goes, seeing that it is all happening, it is all that (even the struggling) and then again struggling and feeling in a battle. I can see how I still judge myself, think I should not beg for love and attention as I am still doing sometimes. And at the same time I see it is also just what I am telling myself, it is all happening, nothing I can do to change. Well the main thing is this back and forth mouvements. I have the idea it should not be there anymore, especially after 30 years of seeking and finding ;)

Even when the self is seen through, resistance and other forms of suffering do not just end, there are many beliefs and patterns that need to be seen, and that can take a lifetime. These can be addressed with further investigation, which is essentially further disassociation from beliefs.

Ok I am ready for that. I am sick of begging for love that is the main story and at the main time I see that it is just an old story playing itself out.

In other words, "future thoughts are pointless - so I dismiss them", that doesn't really work though, you cannot just adopt a thought that you like to believe in, can you? "I will always be loving and happy" - we all try, and we all fail :).
Having said that, it is indeed good to try and drop any expectations and just see what comes up!

No expectations to have no expectations ;) I can see there is nothing to be done. Love, hate, surrender or not, it is all as it is and there is no one there. Just conditioning playing themselves again and again.
And at the same time this is not always clear even sometime really foggy !!!

Are you ready to start the investigation?

Yes !!!! It already feels like it is happening with your questions.

[Ronaldo]

Hi Véronique,

Are all the people guiding on this web site volunteer ?
It very helpful as it gives me focus. No words to express my gratitude

You are welcome. Yes, amazing isn't it? Maybe you will be guiding here at some point too :)

Still it feels as if it comes and goes, seeing that it is all happening, it is all that (even the struggling) and then again struggling and feeling in a battle. I can see how I still judge myself, think I should not beg for love and attention as I am still doing sometimes. And at the same time I see it is also just what I am telling myself, it is all happening, nothing I can do to change. Well the main thing is this back and forth mouvements. I have the idea it should not be there anymore, especially after 30 years of seeking and finding ;)

There is a flip-flopping between being immersed in the story, and seeing the story, that's common and there's nothing wrong with it. Needing love or approval from others is another set of patterns and beliefs, mostly self reflections - your own perceptions on how other perceive you. We can dive a bit into that once we're clear about the self.

R: Are you ready to start the investigation?

Yes !!!! It already feels like it is happening with your questions.

It sure does 😀

OK, I will be asking you questions and sometimes ask you to do some exercises. Please be 100% honest in your replies, never answer because you think this is what I want to hear, or because this is how an awakened person should reply - ask the questions, look at your direct experience.

To be clear, direct experience (DE) is what can be known from sense perception, sight, sound, tastes, smells, sensations and thoughts, but not the content of thoughts. The content of thought is not a real experience, as you cannot eat the thought about your breakfast, the thought about food is there, the food isn't.

Please close your eyes and just sit for a while and observe.
Notice how attention shifts between sounds, sensations of all kinds, and thoughts.
- how is the attention shifting between the sense perceptions and thoughts? Is this something you control?
- what makes a thought appear?
- what makes a thought vanish?
- where are the thoughts coming from, and where are they going to?
- can you stop them?

Let me know what you find,
Ron

[Veronique]

Good morning Ron,

Yes that would be lovely to be guide one day :) why not ... I imagine that guiding helps to explore once the search is over ?

how is the attention shifting between the sense perceptions and thoughts? Is this something you control?

It is just shifting. I have no idea how. It is just happening, like a habit. And no there is nothing I can to to control these mouvements.

what makes a thought appear?

Same answer, I have no idea what makes a thought appear. It just appear, like a reaction, it comes from my education, beliefs, conditioning. I cannot do anything about it.

what makes a thought vanish?

Again the same, it just vanishes by itself. It is beautiful to see that, it gives me deep peace.

quote] where are the thoughts coming from, and where are they going to?[/quote]

Same, I don't know where they come from or where they go to. There is nothing. There are like ghost appearing and disappearing.

can you stop them?

NO I cannot stop anything happening.

Thank you, It is beautiful and powerful to answer these questions. It makes me realize I can do nothing, since it is all happening by itself. I knew it, but never looked at it with so much focus... It is also very helpful to know that you are there to show me the "blind spot".

Have a nice day !

Warm regards,
Véronique

[Ronaldo]

Good evening Véronique,

It is beautiful and powerful to answer these questions. It makes me realize I can do nothing, since it is all happening by itself. I knew it, but never looked at it with so much focus...

Yes... I'm glad you're seeing that! Quite amazing :)


Thoughts seem to come in streams and revolve around a topic for a while, is that "thinking"?
Here is a subject: "black cats are not like regular cats".
Please spend a moment thinking about this subject before proceeding, is it true? false? why?

You'll notice arguments about the validity of this statement.
Can you know the next thought that will appear during any of this?
Can you create a new thought, and how?
is this a thinking process, or do thoughts just appear?
Are you actively doing any thinking? If so, how exactly?



Next, can you describe for me how in your experience things get done? Let's say you make breakfast/dinner or dress up to leave the house.

Why do you make it and when?
Or how do you select the cloths to wear?

How a decision takes place (tea or coffee? Water or orange juice, toast or bread?) (these socks or these?)
What is the role of thoughts during this process?

Please don't just describe it from memory - report as or right after you do it.

Thank you
Ron

[Veronique]

Good morning Ron,

"black cats are not like regular cats". Can you know the next thought that will appear during any of this?

Again the thoughts are just appearing from nowhere.

Can you create a new thought, and how?

No, even if I say to myself "I would like to create a new thought" it appears, but I don't know how, and there is no "me" creating it.

is this a thinking process, or do thoughts just appear?

Thoughts just appear. If I don't look at it, it feel like I create them. But there is no I, even to look at it. It is very surprising how it all works.

Are you actively doing any thinking? If so, how exactly?

No

Next, can you describe for me how in your experience things get done? Let's say you make breakfast/dinner or dress up to leave the house.
Why do you make it and when?

I get ready in the morning, to get to work. But how I don't know. It happens. I still don't understand. When looking at it from far, it looks like I control everything, but who does ? I am puzzled. How does all that happens ?

Or how do you select the cloths to wear?

Feelings, weather, but here again it happens by itself. Often I don't even see a thought.

How a decision takes place (tea or coffee? Water or orange juice, toast or bread?) (these socks or these?)

It pops up. No idea how. It makes me cry to see that. I always thought I could change things or myself...

What is the role of thoughts during this process?

I don't know, sometimes there are thoughts, like a voice telling me do that, but often nothing. Like an automatic pilot.

I say again thank you, even if it feels empty compares to what you make me see with these questions. I don't know what is happening but it is all falling appart. It is very useful to sit and look otherwise automatic habits of illusory identification come back.

Have a nice day.

Warm regards,
Véronique

[Ronaldo]

Hi Véronique,

I say again thank you, even if it feels empty compares to what you make me see with these questions. I don't know what is happening but it is all falling appart. It is very useful to sit and look otherwise automatic habits of illusory identification come back.

You are most welcome, well done and well seen. What's on the other side of the emptiness? Can you feel in touch with the whole too? When there is no "me", can it be both the nothing and also the everything?

Is there any sense of self?
When you sit and look for the self, what can be found? Can you describe everything you sense and anything that might appear as self?


Let's take a deeper look at choice and emotions. Please pardon some repetition (nothing's wrong with that) and pay close attention to the thoughts and any emotions that come up.

Please put some chocolate/cake (or something you like, but think you shouldn’t eat or drink) in front of you. Look at it. Inspect it closely. Smell its delicious fragrance. And pay attention to emerging desire to eat it.

When the desire is there, pay close attention to the thought process.
See how thoughts list pros and cons why you should or shouldn’t eat the chocolate (or whatever).
These opposing thoughts might even try to argue or convince each other what to decide.

What is it that is considering these options?
Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons?
– look very carefully

Now, make a decision, but whatever you decide, don’t eat the chocolate (yet). Rather just pay very close attention when the decision is made. Particularly pay attention to thoughts, as the decision is made.

Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided not to eat the chocolate”
So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought appear?
Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?
How exactly the decision is made?

Now, act according to the decision. (Either eat or don’t eat the chocolate.)
What is it that performed the chosen action?

If you ate it, please try again and deprive yourself - watch the emotions and thought arguments.
Let me know what you find :)

Ron

[Veronique]

Good morning Ron,

To start with I have a little concern. The first day you said I should not read or do any retreat during this process. I forgot about the fact that I have a 4 days retreat starting Thursday in a week. It is a non dual retreat and I understand it can be confusing. So far all the question you ask are very similar to the approach I will do during this retreat. What do you recommend ? Should I stop the process ? I would be sorry about it as it is really amazing for me to do it.

Well I still answer the questions for today and will wait for your reply.

Can you feel in touch with the whole too? When there is no "me", can it be both the nothing and also the everything?

There is no other side to emptiness, it is all there is. Yes it is nothing and everything otherwise there would be a separation and when I look I see none.

Is there any sense of self?

I don't understand the question. As there is no one, there is only self. I don't always see it, intellectually I am sure about it and sometimes I see and realize it, more and more.

When you sit and look for the self, what can be found? Can you describe everything you sense and anything that might appear as self?

The Self is all there is. There is nothing that can be found and at the same time it is everything. It is incomprehensible with the mind.

What is it that is considering these options?

Again I see nothing, the mind tells you should not eat it because it is what the exercise it about but it is just happening.

Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons?
– look very carefully

Sorry I don’t see anything else, always the same answer, it is just happening.

Now, make a decision, but whatever you decide, don’t eat the chocolate (yet). Rather just pay very close attention when the decision is made. Particularly pay attention to thoughts, as the decision is made.

The thought “I am going to eat it” appear. It happens as you suggest it, but again I cannot tell where from.

Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided not to eat the chocolate”

So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought appear?
No idea. It happens by itself. It followed your suggestion.

Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?

No

How exactly the decision is made?

It follows a suggestion you made. It just appeared. I wonder whether thoughts are really useful, I can see that things also happen without thoughts. The thought appear because you told me to make a decision.

Now, act according to the decision. (Either eat or don’t eat the chocolate.)
What is it that performed the chosen action?

Again, it happened.

If you ate it, please try again and deprive yourself - watch the emotions and thought arguments.

No emotions and thought because I ate it and it is enough for now. Could be interesting to deprive myself of something I really want and see the emotions and thoughts.

Have a very nice week-end !

Kind regards,
Veronique

[Ronaldo]

Hi Véronique,

To start with I have a little concern. The first day you said I should not read or do any retreat during this process. I forgot about the fact that I have a 4 days retreat starting Thursday in a week. It is a non dual retreat and I understand it can be confusing. So far all the question you ask are very similar to the approach I will do during this retreat. What do you recommend ? Should I stop the process ? I would be sorry about it as it is really amazing for me to do it.

No worries, we can continue and if you find conflicts (and you likely will) we can talk about them too. If you'd like to take a break for the duration of your retreat from Thursday - that's fine too, just let me know if you do.

R: Is there any sense of self?

V: I don't understand the question. As there is no one, there is only self. I don't always see it, intellectually I am sure about it and sometimes I see and realize it, more and more.

Remember, we're here to question beliefs, all of them.
My question was simple:
when you look at your experience and thoughts - is there anything that feels like a self?

What do you mean by these:
- "As there is no one, there is only self"
What self is there? Can you show me? Do you see a self outside thoughts about a self?

- "I don't always see it, intellectually I am sure about it"
Are you not seeing a self but think there should be one?
Who said there is a self, and why would you believe what anyone says (me included)? You either find it, become aware of it, or it does not exist outside of fantasy and belief.

The Self is all there is. There is nothing that can be found and at the same time it is everything. It is incomprehensible with the mind.

Again, you state that there is a Self which is all there is, but yet can't be found. Can you find anything at all besides smells, sights, sounds, sensations, tastes and thoughts? If it's never found, never seen, doesn't that make it nothing but a thought? a gross belief without any evidence?

And what is a mind? Can you find a mind? Please do explain.

Regards
Ron

[Veronique]

Hi Ron,

No worries, we can continue and if you find conflicts (and you likely will) we can talk about them too. If you'd like to take a break for the duration of your retreat from Thursday - that's fine too, just let me know if you do.

Wonderful ! I am very happy I can continue to explore with you. It will be good to do it also during the retreat. Let see what comes...

Remember, we're here to question beliefs, all of them.
My question was simple:
when you look at your experience and thoughts - is there anything that feels like a self?

I spent a lot of time looking since last night. I never saw it like that. I realize that I never questioned the idea of a self.
Today I see that thoughts, feelings, images, sounds etc. are appearing out of nothing. They just appear from nothing and go back to nothing. I don't see a self. Maybe this nothing from where everything appears and go back to, is what I called the self. But it is not a thing.

What do you mean by these:
- "As there is no one, there is only self"
What self is there? Can you show me? Do you see a self outside thoughts about a self?

Like I said before, there is no self, it is an idea, there is nothing.

- "I don't always see it, intellectually I am sure about it"
Are you not seeing a self but think there should be one?
Who said there is a self, and why would you believe what anyone says (me included)? You either find it, become aware of it, or it does not exist outside of fantasy and belief.

I realize that when I spoke about the self, I meant a feeling of unity, all is open, no separation. But it is nothing. I does not exist really.

The Self is all there is. There is nothing that can be found and at the same time it is everything. It is incomprehensible with the mind.
Again, you state that there is a Self which is all there is, but yet can't be found. Can you find anything at all besides smells, sights, sounds, sensations, tastes and thoughts? If it's never found, never seen, doesn't that make it nothing but a thought? a gross belief without any evidence?

Yes, it is nothing but a gross belief without any evidence.

And what is a mind? Can you find a mind? Please do explain.

Mind also is a concept. I cannot fin it. Thoughts are coming from nothing and vanish in nothing.

Have a very nice evening !

Kind regards,
Véronique

[Ronaldo]

Hi Véronique,

I spent a lot of time looking since last night. I never saw it like that. I realize that I never questioned the idea of a self.
Today I see that thoughts, feelings, images, sounds etc. are appearing out of nothing. They just appear from nothing and go back to nothing. I don't see a self. Maybe this nothing from where everything appears and go back to, is what I called the self. But it is not a thing.

Well done :)
In your day to day life, can you list all the things that look like a self, but when looking close are exposed to be illusions of a self?
I'll give you one example what I mean - I talk to a friend and I say "I'll call you tomorrow" so there is an "I" appearing in the sentence and in thought, but when I look at this "I" it is just a tag on an idea, a concept of a self.
Can you find any other examples? Think about other senses other than thought for example.


What about the idea of free will? Do you have any?

P.S. I love your name.

Regards
Ron

[Veronique]

Hi Ron,

In your day to day life, can you list all the things that look like a self, but when looking close are exposed to be illusions of a self?

The feeling of being a separate self is there most of the time. I look at it and see it is an illusion, but it still plays itself. I spent a lot of time looking and unmasking it. It is amazing how it feels like everything is happening to "me" and when I look there is nothing there. Sometime the appearance of a self is not there at all. It feels like the veil is gone.

I'll give you one example what I mean - I talk to a and I say "I'll call you tomorrow" so there is an "I" appearing in the sentence and in thought, but when I look at this "I" it is just a tag on an idea, a concept of a self.
Can you find any other examples? Think about other senses other than thought for example.

I hear a sound
I see the mountain
I want to take care of others
I want recognition
I eat lovely food
I feel ashamed...

It is endless.

What about the idea of free will? Do you have any?

No there is no free will. It just happens.
Exemple : I do something because of my education, I have the education I have because my parents had the one they had and so on...

P.S. I love your name.

When you say that a sense of identification appears. Am I my name ? This name was given to this body by my parents. Who is the I, again nothing is there. It does not matter whether I like it or not, whether I feel flattered or ashamed by your comment, it is a thought appearing.

Looking forward to reading you :)
Véronique