Seeing No Self

[Leviathan77]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand the self as a narrative that assumes autonomy from life happening, but this is an illusion. The narrative is not present moment, and only serves to propagate the illusion, out of fear of letting go, of losing control ...

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to see clearly through the illusion of self, and learn to develop a discipline to cultivate that insight, to take it as far as it can go. I ultimately would like to cultivate greater amount of peace and stillness in my life.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope to gain perspective, and to see there is no self. I hope to reveal the microscopic reality that is 'my life' and learn from others who have gone down this path before. Im looking forward to a positive interaction.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have practiced self inquiry in the spirit of Ramana. I have also practiced some meditation, a lot of bodywork and may a sathipattana.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[pozablo]

Hi Leviathan, your responses to those initial questions do sound like you are ready!

I'm Pablo Miller, and I'd be happy to guide you.

Two things seem to be the biggest sources of confusion in this process, so let's deal with them first.

1) Expectations. We can have many expectations that are not conscious. For example, sometimes we are surprised by something without even realizing that we had an expectation that it would be different. A simple example is when we pick up something to be surprised by it's weight.
Words like 'enlightenment' and 'awakening' carry a lot of baggage, such as constant unconditional love, and eternal freedom from feelings of anger, anxiety, worry, blame, sadness, insecurity, doubt, uncertainty, self-consciousness, etc etc. Expecting this, even unconsciously, can be a major distraction here.
The fact is that unconditional love and freedom from undesirable thoughts and feelings does not occur even when it is clearly seen and known beyond doubt that there is no self experiencing them.
But when undesirable experiences are then seen as just passing phenomena, and are no longer aggravated or maintained by worries about them, thoughts that they "should" not be there, or counterproductive attempts to control or suppress them.
And as they get less attention, and there are more clear spaces between thoughts in which to see how they arise and pass, the neuronal bases of those emotions lose connectivity and strength and are activated less and less frequently and strongly. It’s quite nice.

And further, if there is the desire/motivation/urge to be more loving, kind, peaceful, and/or more skillfully benevolent, these work themselves out much more gracefully and easily without the noise, confusion and distraction of an imaginary self.

2) Definitions. Words like 'you' and 'I' and "me" are used in so many ways that they can be really confusing when what we are actually looking for here is whether there is some part of you that is a perceiver of experience (which I shall call a ‘self’), and whether there is some part of you that makes decisions, thinks thoughts, or initiates or performs mental or physical activity or anything else (which I shall call an ‘agent’).

So, if the above is agreeable to you, please reply and let me know and we can get started!


Cheers,
/p

[Leviathan77]

Hi Pablo. I sincerely appreciate your commitment to this work, and I am looking forward to the process!

Your response is certainly agreeable to me. I understand intellectually what you are stating on expectations pertaining to ‘enlightenment,’ and I reminded of D.T. Suzuki’s “two inches off the ground” comment when asked how the experience of enlightenment differs from ordinary life. However, I can see that I do harbor some tacit expectations about the end result, imagining what life ‘should be’ following awakening. I will put forth every effort to recognize and bring these thoughts, feelings, fantasies, etc. to the forefront of consciousness so to not inhibit the work here.

I appreciate the connection to the neurological reality, and the emphasis of breaking down cohesion of the Default Mode Network in the brain, the region responsible for structuring self-other narratives, and reducing the noise of a false center.

The terms and fundamental distinction between self and agent are agreeable to me as well, and are familiar by way of Jung, Alan Watts, Reich, Lowen, etc. The understand the agent as an assemblage of enumerable habits, conditioned micro-processes of tension-charge-discharge all contained within the experience of Self. Thoughts and feelings arise spontaneously, without premeditation or execution of apparent free will, but are rather emanations of the Self.

Best,

Leviathan

[pozablo]

Hi back to you, L 😊
It is refreshing to be able to refer to some physiology here!

A couple items of procedure:
=Please learn to use the Quote function from the text formatting options above the reply text box. =Please answer all my questions in blue, and do so based only on what you observe happening in consciousness.
=On the bottom left of this page, just to the right of the Post Reply button, there is a tool icon. If you click the drop down next to it, you can select Subscribe Topic so that you get an email notification whenever I post something to you.

Also, there truly are no wrong answers to my questions. Honest. Anything you say will help me to understand where to go next in our hypothesis testing.

So let’s get started!

The terms and fundamental distinction between self and agent are agreeable to me as well,

Excellent, thank you.

I will put forth every effort to recognize and bring these thoughts, feelings, fantasies, etc. to the forefront of consciousness so to not inhibit the work here.

Powerful acknowledgement, thank you.

Thoughts and feelings arise spontaneously, without premeditation or execution of apparent free will, but are rather emanations of the Self

Have you seen very clearly that thoughts and feelings arise spontaneously, or is it something you believe to be true?

Can you explain to me how a hypothesized perceiver might emanate anything?

Jung, Alan Watts, Reich, Lowen, etc.

IMHO Alan Watts has to be one of the best-ever explicators of non-duality, but I never really studied any of those early psych theorists.
Would it be ok if we put all theories aside for the duration of our purely experiential work here?

Watts and Suzuki and many others have put forth many different terms, and brilliant analogies and metaphors, from their own perspectives.
For our work together do you think it might be helpful to put those completely aside and focus purely on examining your own direct experience?

understand the agent as an assemblage of enumerable habits, conditioned micro-processes of tension-charge-discharge all contained within the experience of Self..

Gotta admit I don’t know what “conditioned micro-processes of tension-charge-discharge” means.
Are you referring to action potentials in the neuronal cell bodies?

I appreciate the connection to the neurological reality, and the emphasis of breaking down cohesion of the Default Mode Network in the brain, the region responsible for structuring self-other narratives, and reducing the noise of a false center.

So cool you are familiar with research on the DMN. The manifestation of its activity in conscious experience is something at which we’ll be looking closely.
Re "breaking down its cohesion", yep. Much of what we are doing can certainly be looked at as strengthening some dendritic and axonal connections and letting others decay, but I suggest we stick with your own direct experience!

For now, please observe your own conscious experience and locate the exact center.
Where is it?

Cheers,
/p

[Leviathan77]

Thoughts and feelings arise spontaneously, without premeditation or execution of apparent free will, but are rather emanations of the Self

Have you seen very clearly that thoughts and feelings arise spontaneously, or is it something you believe to be true?

I have not spent a lot of time observing this phenomenon, but I have observed the spontaneous production of thoughts and feelings from nothing. I wouldn't attach the descriptor 'very clearly' to my understanding. I understand that thoughts and feelings are not selected by 'me,' as the thought of a 'me' is also a spontaneous production and has no real control.

Can you explain to me how a hypothesized perceiver might emanate anything?

I can't, actually. I was still thinking of the perceiver as being of substance, as some fundamental bedrock containing all conscious experience for this organism. There is a baseline structure that formulates the continuity of a personal self through space and time, and that is the source of emanation. But I see that at a certain point there is no substance.

Jung, Alan Watts, Reich, Lowen, etc.

IMHO Alan Watts has to be one of the best-ever explicators of non-duality, but I never really studied any of those early psych theorists.
Would it be ok if we put all theories aside for the duration of our purely experiential work here?

Watts and Suzuki and many others have put forth many different terms, and brilliant analogies and metaphors, from their own perspectives.
For our work together do you think it might be helpful to put those completely aside and focus purely on examining your own direct experience?

Yes, I can I put them aside.

understand the agent as an assemblage of enumerable habits, conditioned micro-processes of tension-charge-discharge all contained within the experience of Self..
Gotta admit I don’t know what “conditioned micro-processes of tension-charge-discharge” means.
Are you referring to action potentials in the neuronal cell bodies?

Not directly, but it relates. It's essentially jargon in reference to the concepts of others, so it probably isn't relevant here. Reich proposed the fundamental organic cycle was tension-charge-discharge-relaxation. All habits and vital processes follow this basic schematic, but natural emotional responses, expressions of will, etc. are disrupted early in life because of culture, the will of authorities, etc. And so the preservation of vitality becomes dysfunctional to some degree. But I will leave that there, as this is just more mental constructions.

I appreciate the connection to the neurological reality, and the emphasis of breaking down cohesion of the Default Mode Network in the brain, the region responsible for structuring self-other narratives, and reducing the noise of a false center.

So cool you are familiar with research on the DMN. The manifestation of its activity in conscious experience is something at which we’ll be looking closely.
Re "breaking down its cohesion", yep. Much of what we are doing can certainly be looked at as strengthening some dendritic and axonal connections and letting others decay, but I suggest we stick with your own direct experience!

For now, please observe your own conscious experience and locate the exact center.
Where is it?

If there is a center, I can't find it. There is simply a void.

[pozablo]

I have observed the spontaneous production of thoughts and feelings from nothing… I wouldn't attach the descriptor 'very clearly'

OK, very good.
Now continue to closely watch (not think about) thoughts and feelings and urges, like a cat watching a mouse hole. Find the ones that do not arise spontaneously and tell me about them.

There is a baseline structure that formulates the continuity of a personal self through space and time, and that is the source of emanation…..

Let’s be very very clear.
What you understand, have read, or figured out is absolutely irrelevant here!!!
That “baseline structure” is just some kind of imagined story. All those stories and hypotheses and explanations just get in the way here.

Reich proposed the fundamental organic cycle was tension-charge-discharge-relaxation. All habits and vital processes (blah blah blah)

Huh? What? 😊
Alan Watts, neurobiology, action potentials, ‘baseline structures’, ‘fundamental organic cycles' etc etc have absolutely nothing whatsoever to what we are doing here.
It is crucial that we are clear on this!

We have all tried to figure this thing out, and come up with all kinds of analyses and explanations and understandings, etc etc. And they do nothing but get in the way of simply seeing.

It is difficult for everyone beginning this work to see without expectations or assumptions, but I’ll help you. Please, and again this is crucial, just carefully observe your experience very clearly and answer all of my previous blue questions from that, not from any ideas you have about anything.

If there is a center, I can't find it. There is simply a void.

Please clearly describe the experience you call a void.
What is in the void?
Where do thoughts, feelings, and sensory experiences occur?

Completely dedicated to you freedom from stories,
/p

[pozablo]

As noted by the venerable Swami Beyondananda:
"Stick with your story and your story will stick with you...and then you're stuck with it".

[pozablo]

And, as recommended by the equally venerable Gautama Buddha:

"Do not believe in anything (simply) because you have heard it.

Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.

Do not believe in anything because it is spoken and rumoured by many.

Do not believe in anything (simply) because it is found written in your religious books.

Do not believe in anything merely on authority of your teachers and elders.

But after observation and analysis, when you find that it agrees with reason
and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."

[Leviathan77]

OK, very good.
Now continue to closely watch (not think about) thoughts and feelings and urges, like a cat watching a mouse hole. Find the ones that do not arise spontaneously and tell me about them.

I'm still discerning what I am seeing, but I noticed that there is a deep seated feeling of anger and frustration, a tension that exists in the background of ephemeral thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc. There is a feeling of pressure in seeking resolution, and a simultaneous feeling of futility in not knowing what I am looking for.

There is otherwise a pervasive sense of a thinker, a kind of character that is the 'me' seeing fleeting thoughts.

Please clearly describe the experience you call a void.
What is in the void?

Initially I was seeking out a center, but could not identify one true center, only apparent centers of focused attention on thoughts, feelings, etc. At one time being 'me.' At this point, the center became and ideal, and the sense of void was at first a supplement to center, somewhere containing a hidden center. But then it was an unknowing of a center at all.

Where do thoughts, feelings, and sensory experiences occur?

On several occasions watching, the sensation of the body felt like it was enormous in size, and there was a deepening sense of potential infinity. I need to spend more time contemplating this questions, as well as the others.

[pozablo]

I'm still discerning what I am seeing, but I noticed that there is a deep seated feeling of anger and frustration, a tension that exists in the background of ephemeral thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc. There is a feeling of pressure in seeking resolution, and a simultaneous feeling of futility in not knowing what I am looking for.

Frustration is common at this stage of inquiry, dear Leviathan, and it can be helpful.
Please look at the frustration as just another form appearing in your consciousness. Do not fight it or try to make it go away, don’t even try to solve or resolve it. Stay with that. What happens?

There is otherwise a pervasive sense of a thinker, a kind of character that is the 'me' seeing fleeting thoughts.

There is awareness of thoughts, obviously, but please look carefully and see if you can find the dividing line between thoughts and something that is aware of the thoughts.

And now, please actually answer the question 😊
Find the thoughts that do not arise spontaneously and tell me about them.

Initially I was seeking out a center, but could not identify one true center, only apparent centers of focused attention on thoughts, feelings, etc. At one time being 'me.' At this point, the center became and ideal, and the sense of void was at first a supplement to center, somewhere containing a hidden center. But then it was an unknowing of a center at all.

OK, try this.
Take a deep breath, and as you let it out let your muscles relax all over your body.
Now relax your attention/awareness to allow whatever appears to just come and go as it will, without you trying to do anything except look for the boundaries of consciousness.

After doing this and observing, please tell me what you observed.

On several occasions watching, the sensation of the body felt like it was enormous in size, and there was a deepening sense of potential infinity. I need to spend more time contemplating this questions, as well as the others.

Ok, those were passing experiences. Please do not try to reclaim or recover them or anything else..that will really hold us back.

And, Leviathan, there are reasons and purposes behind my questions. Please answer them.

The only thing you can know about your body is the sensory experience
So again, Where do thoughts, feelings and sensory experiences occur?

If by 'contemplating' you mean thinking about them, please stop that!!!
Just for now, while we are engaged in this together, give my approach a chance to work.
That means, don't think about it... observe it.

[Leviathan77]

What happens?

I notice that the feelings seem to 'dislodge,' and consciousness feels 'freed up' by the loss of emotional weight. There is more space around the feelings.

Find the thoughts that do not arise spontaneously and tell me about them.

I would describe the non-spontaneous thoughts as an 'explanative process.' This process responds to thoughts and explains context, and periodically provides instruction to continue engaging in the mediation task.

After doing this and observing, please tell me what you observed.

I can sense there is an edge of thoughts, feelings, sensations at the end of consciousness, but it still seems fuzzy to me. I can make out the finite nature of these phenomena, but I do not see them perfectly clearly.

So again, Where do thoughts, feelings and sensory experiences occur?

They exist within a space, like a blank canvas. But the perception is fleeting.

[pozablo]

I notice that the feelings seem to 'dislodge,' and consciousness feels 'freed up' by the loss of emotional weight. There is more space around the feelings.

Yes, nice! That is what happens when feelings are not resisted or labelled as wrong, undesirable, etc and then get lots of the kind of attention and added on emotion that strengthens and prolongs them.
This is a great observation Leviathan.
During over 30 years of psychotherapy with hundreds of clients, I have noticed that probably 90% of ‘negative’ feelings are the result of people trying to make the other 10% go away! That 90% is pure suffering.

Some feelings take longer than others to run their course, but they will always do so. Including the feelings of ‘self’ and ‘agent’!
What comes naturally to most people, though, is they use the relaxing of awareness and non-resisting as just another method to try to make the feelings go away. And then they pay more attention to the feeling to see if it is changing. And if it isn’t changing “fast enough” to meet their hopes and expectations, frustration arises and the whole thing can spiral.

I would describe the non-spontaneous thoughts as an 'explanative process.' This process responds to thoughts and explains context, and periodically provides instruction to continue engaging in the mediation task.

OK, now please watch very carefully how these thoughts arise.
In what sense do they arise non-spontaneously?
Does an ‘agentyou’ decide to think them?

I can sense there is an edge of thoughts, feelings, sensations at the end of consciousness, but it still seems fuzzy to me. I can make out the finite nature of these phenomena, but I do not see them perfectly clearly.

OK, cool.
Now just keep watching with that relaxed open awareness and relaxed body.
Are you saying that you can see where consciousness ends?

They exist within a space, like a blank canvas. But the perception is fleeting.

OK, in your direct experience, is there anything beyond that space?
Is there anything happening outside that same space?
How is the experience of your body in relation to that space?

Leviathan, you catch on quick! Now you are making and reporting observations, not telling me about thoughts or explanations or concepts.

Keep up the good work!

/p

[Leviathan77]

In what sense do they arise non-spontaneously?
Does an ‘agentyou’ decide to think them?

They arise non-spontaneously in the sense that there is an emotional component that 'wills' them. The agent does not choose the content of the experience, and is actually defined by the becoming of these thoughts.

Are you saying that you can see where consciousness ends?

I can see that consciousness ends. Even just being outside, looking around there is an end to what is perceptible to the agent.

OK, in your direct experience, is there anything beyond that space?
Is there anything happening outside that same space?
How is the experience of your body in relation to that space?

There is nothing beyond the space. Nothing in the imagination. Nothing at all.

[pozablo]

They arise non-spontaneously in the sense that there is an emotional component that 'wills' them. The agent does not choose the content of the experience, and is actually defined by the becoming of these thoughts.

If you look very closely, I wonder whether you will find thoughts with an emotional component would include most thoughts?
Are you saying that in your direct experience the emotion is like an agent that creates the thought?

I can see that consciousness ends. Even just being outside, looking around there is an end to what is perceptible to the agent.

Is this end in your direct experience, or in "knowledge" (thought)?

There is nothing beyond the space. Nothing in the imagination. Nothing at all.

This seems to contradict what you said above, so clearly I'm not understanding what you mean.
Can you clarify, please?

[Leviathan77]

If you look very closely, I wonder whether you will find thoughts with an emotional component would include most thoughts?
Are you saying that in your direct experience the emotion is like an agent that creates the thought?

You're right, I do see that even the quietest chatter have a weak connection to feeling. But importantly, I saw that every thought arose because of desire, a desire to know. I saw that there was an endless outpouring of desire attempting to grasp the metaphysical 'knowing,' and so I looked for the source of that endless outpouring of desire. I actually felt it as a feeling of pain in the chest region. After looking I could see there was no 'source' of desire, but just the sudden emerge of desire into existence. At that moment, the feeling of pain stopped and the desire to know disappeared.

I can see that consciousness ends. Even just being outside, looking around there is an end to what is perceptible to the agent.

Is this end in your direct experience, or in "knowledge" (thought)?

It is my direct experience. I can see that there is nothing beyond the blue sky, and that my factual existence is like a simulation experienced through the sense organs and the nervous system.

This seems to contradict what you said above, so clearly I'm not understanding what you mean.
Can you clarify, please?

I mean that the experience of a personal self is only experienced as arising thoughts, feelings, and sensations. And this is contained within nothing for 'I' to attach to.