Looking for Truth

[Questioner88]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Leading/helping/questioning that assists the seeker move past and out of the idea of a personal self - not just intellectually but KNOWN as lived reality.

What are you looking for at LU?
Assistance in what I hope is the final gate; to be able to fully live the reality of 'no self'. While I am planning on reading Gateless Gatecrashers (have already read Liberation Unleashed), will really appreciate the guidance of someone already living that reality

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Questions that will help with a new understanding, a new or different way of looking that moves through the currently-held idea of a self, which is still hanging on! Often two people working together generate a spark of learning that doesn't come from reading or study.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Student of the work of Dr. David R Hawkins, Rupert Spira, Adyashanti, and most importantly, Robert Wolfe. Just started looking at the writings of Jean Klein and Greg Goode. 3 years of studying A Course in Miracles and currently completing another study group with ACIM with the focus on non-dual concepts within ACIM. Regular practice over 7 years of awareness training, which has led to frequent periods of calmness and very quiet joy without the mind chatter where the self doesn't seem to be there but this is not a steady state.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[warissem]

Hi

I am here to help you to see through the illusion of a separate self. There are some guidelines to be respected during this dialog to make it successful :

Regularity is the clue during this process : looking 24/7 at direct experience. It means you do need to answer to my questions after having looked at direct experience, at least once a day. When you don't have the time to answer, just let me know. I will explain for you how to look at direct experience, don't worry.

Read the disclaimer text.

Learn how to use the Quote function

Leave aside all the books, audios and videos about spirituality, religion, non duality and so on, during the dialog

If you agree with all of these, you let me know.

Warissem

[Questioner88]

Hello warissem - I am super busy today, but will be reading as you asked me to do, and should be able to get back to you tonight with a commitment - thank you! Your guidance is appreciated. I am going to do this, just need to make sure my ducks are in a row first.

Your help is appreciated.

sincerely, questioner88

[Questioner88]

Did the reading, and thought this through.

Agreed, thank you.

Does the restriction on audios videos etc apply to the Gatecrasher book, which I have only just started to read?

Sincerely, questioner88

[warissem]

Hi

yes you can continue to read the book, it will give you inspiration.

What do you expect in this forum ?

How do you see life after the seeing that there is no you, no separate self ?

What is seeing through the illusion of a separate self in your own words ?

Thanks

Warissem

[Questioner88]

Wow, thank you, those are questions! Again, will get back to you at the end of the day.

Regards, Questioner88

[Questioner88]

What do you expect in this forum ?

Referring to the forum as the discussion between you and I - I am hoping for the dissolution of ‘me’ as the view point of daily life; changing to a larger viewpoint, which I don’t really have words to describe. The best I have so far is “All are’ or ‘One is’ but neither of those quite captures the viewpoint I am hoping for. There would not be an individual self in such a viewpoint. Have read enough to hear many times of this possibility but have never been able to dissolve the self other than for a few moments, and that was a spontaneous happening. In those moments, there was no self, there wasn’t even an all-ness, it just ‘was’ if that makes any sense. I don’t know if those moments were truth or not but want to find out. There wasn’t an I-self at those moments. It was quite loving and peaceful in a very quiet way.

How do you see life after the seeing that there is no you, no separate self ?

I don’t expect that life itself will change. I hope that my view of life will change into something more open, more all-encompassing, without the ‘I’ that currently holds my viewing position.

What is seeing through the illusion of a separate self in your own words ?

Seeing through the identification with the body as the source of the I (identity); seeing through the childhood idea of there being a separate I, separate from all others; and no longer seeing others as separate selves. I don’t see how I could no longer see a self in myself and still see it in others, although well aware that others will not change their viewpoint of their self! Which could make for some interesting moments, but hopefully very understandable moments from ‘my’ side of any conversations. Life without a ‘me’ - we don’t really have language or grammar easily available to describe that.

Thank you once again, questioner88

[warissem]

Hi

First, you need to learn how to use the quote function : select my question then push the button "quote" and this is the result for your answer:

Referring to the forum as the discussion between you and I - I am hoping for the dissolution of ‘me’ as the view point of daily life; changing to a larger viewpoint, which I don’t really have words to describe. The best I have so far is “All are’ or ‘One is’ but neither of those quite captures the viewpoint I am hoping for. There would not be an individual self in such a viewpoint. Have read enough to hear many times of this possibility but have never been able to dissolve the self other than for a few moments, and that was a spontaneous happening. In those moments, there was no self, there wasn’t even an all-ness, it just ‘was’ if that makes any sense. I don’t know if those moments were truth or not but want to find out. There wasn’t an I-self at those moments. It was quite loving and peaceful in a very quiet way.

How can something which does not exist dissolve ? There is no me to be dissolved, it does not exist even now. There will not be a great change because you are living without a separate self from the beginning.

I don’t expect that life itself will change. I hope that my view of life will change into something more open, more all-encompassing, without the ‘I’ that currently holds my viewing position.

Yes.

Seeing through the identification with the body as the source of the I (identity); seeing through the childhood idea of there being a separate I, separate from all others; and no longer seeing others as separate selves. I don’t see how I could no longer see a self in myself and still see it in others, although well aware that others will not change their viewpoint of their self! Which could make for some interesting moments, but hopefully very understandable moments from ‘my’ side of any conversations. Life without a ‘me’ - we don’t really have language or grammar easily available to describe that.

Life is already, without you, anyway.Read the paragraph below to lessen your expectations :

"Seeing self for what it really is - a story, does not mean that your life is suddenly upgraded in every conceivable way. Old habits, beliefs, programming and conditioning will very probably remain in place. Awakening from the story of you allows old patterns to drop away quickly. The foundation upon which these patterns were based is gone. In this sense, liberation is just the beginning."

Let me know, if you are ready to begin the investigation about you.

Warissem

[Questioner88]

Hello again

Let me know, if you are ready to begin the investigation about you.

Yes, thank you. Ready.

I have a question about the following:

"Seeing self for what it really is - a story, does not mean that your life is suddenly upgraded in every conceivable way. Old habits, beliefs, programming and conditioning will very probably remain in place. Awakening from the story of you allows old patterns to drop away quickly. The foundation upon which these patterns were based is gone. In this sense, liberation is just the beginning."

I always thought that ego, aka separate self, was formed from beliefs, programming and conditioning as well as the basic idea of being separated. This is not correct? Sentence two and three above seem to contradict each other? What is meant by patterns, if it is not the habits, beliefs, programming and conditioning referred to?

To be clear, I am not expecting huge upgrades in my life, just wondering about the meaning here and trying to understand.

Also started with the gatecrashers book, and going through the first discussion (Philip) as if the questions are being asked of myself.

Thank you once again

Sincerely, questioner88

[warissem]

Hi

I always thought that ego, aka separate self, was formed from beliefs, programming and conditioning as well as the basic idea of being separated. This is not correct?

Yes.

Sentence two and three above seem to contradict each other? What is meant by patterns, if it is not the habits, beliefs, programming and conditioning referred to?

There is an apparent contradiction but it means that the old beliefs, conditionnings, ... don't drop in a finger click just after the seeing of no separate self. Anyway, you will see for yourself soon.

To be clear, I am not expecting huge upgrades in my life, just wondering about the meaning here and trying to understand.

Great.

Also started with the gatecrashers book, and going through the first discussion (Philip) as if the questions are being asked of myself.

It is time to let aside this book. It is better to look about the questions asked directly to you.

I wish everything is clear for you till now.

Two important things to begin with, these are clues of all this investigation :

1) Regularity : you read the question, let it sink for hours and give an answer. This must be done ONCE A DAY. If you have not done the exercise let me know.

2) Honesty : being honest with yourself means giving answers after having seen the truth of it with certainty. It means that the answer is not borrowed from a book, an audio, a video, a memory. The answer is given after having looked at direct experience.

Direct experience : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, sensations. There are thoughts arising but don't go to thoughts.

Example : you are in your room, windows closed, I ask : what is the color of the sky right now?

You can give an answer without opening the window : let's say "it is blue". This answer is guessed, it comes as a thought belief or a supposition

You can answer after having opened the window and after having looked at the sky : this answer comes from direct experience.

After having read the example above, give 2 or 3 examples of yours to make me know for sure that you understand the difference between answering from memory and answering from direct experience.

Thank you

Warissem

NB : what is your name for the use in this forum

[Questioner88]

NB : what is your name for the use in this forum

Lisa works, thank you.

give 2 or 3 examples of yours to make me know for sure that you understand the difference between answering from memory and answering from direct experience.

If I am out for dinner, and someone asks how my cat is, I answer from memory: "she is fine". If I am asked while I am on the phone with that same person while holding the cat, I have direct experience in this moment: "she is fine, not fine, throwing up, purring, etc." Whatever is true via my perception of her in that moment of holding her and answering is direct experience.

If I am asked, is the sun shining right now, while I am in the basement, and I answer "yes it is", from memory, then I am not answering from direct experience in that moment. I would need to go outside to check the sun and then answer, or at least look out the window. In that moment of looking, I have direct experience. If I go back down into the basement, and was asked again, I would need to go back up stairs and check again to have direct experience from sensation to know that the sun is shining rather than answering from memory of just a few minutes ago.

If I am asked if there is pressure on my arms, I would check the sensation of my arms right now to feel if there is pressure. I will be certain there is or is not.

Thank you once again, sincerely, Lisa (questioner88)

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

Ok, good. There is an exercise for you : close your eyes and make a list of the thoughts, list them as List A and List B. In list A you put all the thoughts which turn around you,the person, Lisa, in List B you put all other thoughts. You don't need to send the lists here, just answer to these questions :

What is the list which has more thoughts ?

Are thoughts initiated by you ?

Can you stop the thoughts from arising ?

Can you cut a thought in the middle ?

Are you a thinker of thought ?

Does a thought think ?

Does a thought see ?

Give answers from direct experience.

Best wishes

Warissem

[Questioner88]

What is the list which has more thoughts ?

Today was an exceptionally busy day today with some flow states; the lists are about even. I notice that some of the outward thoughts (B) often have, under the surface, a feeling of bias to me even if not directly thought - perhaps I am doing a job and thinking of that job, but (unless I am in the flow state) the thought might have a feeling of bias towards myself (ex. being seen as doing a good job). So while the B thoughts are about the job with no direct focus on myself, I feel that there is still an underlying subtle focus towards myself - like a flavour to the thought. Ex: I want to build XYZ, "how will I do it" is the thought but there is an underlying bias towards building it the easy way. If I moved those flavoured thoughts into the A side, the A side would be about 10 times more than B.

The flow state thoughts are purely job-directed. A day with less flow state would be even more focused on A type thoughts.

Are thoughts initiated by you ?

Heck no, they just show up

Can you stop the thoughts from arising ?

To some extent, yes. Not by suppression but by getting deeply into the body and filling my conscious mind with sensation to leave no room for thoughts. Thoughts may still show up but much fewer

Can you cut a thought in the middle ?

Yes, I can cut a thought off, despite not being the one starting the thought

Are you a thinker of thought ?

Not really. The thoughts originate elsewhere but once here, there seems to be a brain response as a different kind of thought; more of an operational kind of response to the thought (which the 'I' did not think). Example: repairing something. A thought about what it might be shows up; then a mental walk through a checklist to diagnose and repair. One is a brain skill/response rather than a thought.

Does a thought think ?

No, I didn't notice that! Unless you mean the brain response I mentioned, a trained brain response to a thought. But no, thoughts themselves do not think.

Does a thought see ?

Not that I noticed

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

Heck no, they just show up

Yes

To some extent, yes. Not by suppression but by getting deeply into the body and filling my conscious mind with sensation to leave no room for thoughts. Thoughts may still show up but much fewer

Are you answering after having looked at direct experience ? There is a thought about a white elephant, can you stop it ? If it is the case you will let arise only good and positive thoughts.

Yes, I can cut a thought off, despite not being the one starting the thought

Do you really ? What is the part of the thought which you keep, is it a third of a thought, a half of it ? If it is so how can you know that a thought is cut before seeing the entire thought? You need to look again and again at this and be certain of your answers.

Not really. The thoughts originate elsewhere but once here, there seems to be a brain response as a different kind of thought; more of an operational kind of response to the thought (which the 'I' did not think). Example: repairing something. A thought about what it might be shows up; then a mental walk through a checklist to diagnose and repair. One is a brain skill/response rather than a thought.

The details you give are not the result of the looking at direct experience.

No, I didn't notice that! Unless you mean the brain response I mentioned, a trained brain response to a thought. But no, thoughts themselves do not think.

Yes a thought cannot think.

Not that I noticed

Yes a thought cannot see nor hear.

Look at direct experience and give answers to the questions above before we go to another topic

Warissem

[Questioner88]

Hi again - a tough day here, I'm just looking at your response in detail now, but I am off to bed - not feeling well - and will consider carefully the points you raised and get back to you tomorrow.

Thank you again, Lisa