Can you see me?

[HaHo]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
It is assistance in seeing through the illusory self. A waking from the dream of separation where no-one actually wakes up. The self is the experience that we are a real person occupying a real body in space and time, who has a life with meaning and purpose where cause and effect are exclusively real.

What are you looking for at LU?
There is no-one looking already and yet I’m looking for an expantion into everthing. A shift from the experience of being an individual where something needs to happen to a realisation that there never was a person waiting for liberation. I feel like a moth to a flame but don’t know which direction to fly in so if it is posible to point me in the right direction, that is what I want.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Something energetic. Maybe hidden as just the right question. At best this results in my annihilation however simply talking about this subject is a delight. I expect to be pleasantly surprised by some questions that open up a new area for exploration.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Lifelong 50 year non seeking then a seeming spiritual awakening which resulted in 4 months of YouTube intense spiritual seeking of all description. A brief spell of inquiry through Rupert Spira then abandoning everything upon the discovery of Jim Newman, Tony Parsons and other radical non-duality speakers. Two years of talks and retreats in that circle to date.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Vivien]

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I can assist you with your inquiry.

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards investigating that what it is that you mistake for a self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

When you say, you want to be guided to realise that there is no self, what do you expect that this realisation should look like?
What benefits do you expect from seeing no self?
What would stay the same?
What you do not want to happen?

Please look at these and reply with some detail and full honestly.

Vivien

[HaHo]

Hi Vivien,

Nice to meet you!

Many thanks for your reply. I have bolded your original question.

Can we agree on these?

Agreed. Daily posting, transparency, honesty and talking from my own experience. I will endeavour not to cloud what I write with words I have heard from others.

When you say, you want to be guided to realise that there is no self, what do you expect that this realisation should look like?

I’d like to preface this by saying that what I write below is very much affected by what we agreed above. I have read many accounts of liberation and heard many speakers give their take on it so even though I am aware that it isn’t like some of my expectations, I will non the less write without including others' influences.

I expect the realisation will be a big event. A moment sometime in the future. A thought in the head, “Wow, HaHo is not here”. Perhaps surprise that, “This is not how I imagined it”, or, “This is just how I imagined it”. I am expecting some really nice thoughts, feelings and sensations at the beauty of everything. An answering of all those questions I had about life and existence. I am expecting to meet Nothing face to face and to know it and for it to be familiar. Familiar from my early childhood years or even pre-birth. A returning to that time of innocence and wonder. I am expecting to quantifiably know and see that there is no time. To finally crack that nut will be an achievement. To be able to say, “I knew it! I was right all along.”

What benefits do you expect from seeing no self?

The ability to understand all non-duality teachers no matter how complex their use of language.
The ability to talk on this subject spontaneously and with zero effort. For it to simply flow and to impress people.
I expect to lose some undesired aspects of my character such as overthinking and revisiting moments of conflict with others again and again.
I am intrigued to see if I lose the self consciousness I experience when playing an instrument in front of others. I always felt impaired by this and secretly expect for it to go.
I expect to get more enjoyment from the world and experience childlike wonder in all things. To see things as new each time and not get bored through familiarity.
A big one for me is the expected loss of the fear of death. I have invested too many hours into feeding this fear. With that said, there has been a significant fading of this over the last couple of years. Perhaps liberation would wipe out any remnants.
I think there could be a sort of wisdom accompanying liberation. The ability to look at the world’s problems and recognise what is wrong and have a good idea of how things could be improved

What would stay the same?

I think as the character remains when there is no self many habits and preferences would stay the same. The conditioning is still affecting the character. Memories would still be accessible.

Am struggling to find anything else to say on this question.

What you do not want to happen?

Becoming sedentary and even more lazy and for it to negatively impact my health.
Do not want to exhibit unrestrained emotions in public such as anger.
Do not want people to think I've gone crazy.
Do not want to lose control. If the self was tempering certain emotions and impulses could I lose it and be a danger?
I don’t want to lose the ability to do my job and for anyone to perceive a change in me even if I have to pretend to be my “old self”.
I do not want the self to return however as I feel I have always sabotaged myself I expect that might happen.

[Vivien]

Hi,

What name would you like me to call you?

You can use the quote function just as you would the bold, that could help with readability.

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

I expect the realisation will be a big event.

And what if it won’t be a big event? For many, it’s not a big event. It’s often just a slight shift in perception. If you expect something big to happen, you might miss what is actually happening.

I am expecting some really nice thoughts, feelings and sensations at the beauty of everything.

Seeing that there is no separate self is NOT about having nice thoughts, or nice feelings. It’s a common expectation, but it’s not how it is.

Happiness or peace is a state, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about seeing that emotions don’t belong to anything. They are free floating without being tied to or anchored to anything.

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual. Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.

An answering of all those questions I had about life and existence.

The chance is for this is close to zero. Sorry to bring the bad news, but seeing that there is no separate self has nothing to do with having a satisfying answer to the mind’s demandings.

I am expecting to meet Nothing face to face and to know it and for it to be familiar. Familiar from my early childhood years or even pre-birth. A returning to that time of innocence and wonder. I am expecting to quantifiably know and see that there is no time. To finally crack that nut will be an achievement. To be able to say, “I knew it! I was right all along.”

This is a BIG one. What if the discovery will bring that you weren’t right along? The chance for this is much higher, it’s almost certain. Why? Because all your expectations are coming from the belief of a separate self. Waking up is about seeing that almost everything we believed were true is not how it is in actuality.

It’s not about being right with the thought “I knew it”. Quite the opposite.

It’s the discovery that I don’t know anything!
And this state of not knowing where freedom lies. Never in knowing.

The ability to understand all non-duality teachers no matter how complex their use of language.

But why would you? It’s not about understanding what teachers say… this is an intellectual desire, and I have to tell you it has nothing to do with seeing that there is no self there. So can you drop this?

The ability to talk on this subject spontaneously and with zero effort. For it to simply flow and to impress people.

This is huge! You want to impress others? As long as you want to impress others, then self is not seen through. When the self is seen to be an illusion, this desire falls away.

It’s not about becoming special. It’s not about being above of others to impress them with my knowledge.
It’s quite the opposite.
It’s very humbling.
It’s the seeing that no one is better or worse than me.
And the seeing that there is no on to impress.

If the self will be really seen through, this expectations will fall.
If it doesn’t, then it’s a sure sign that the self/ego is active.

I expect to lose some undesired aspects of my character such as overthinking and revisiting moments of conflict with others again and again.

When there is any form of suffering, it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added narrative.

And the personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through. All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. The falling away of conditioning can last at the end of the organism.

I am intrigued to see if I lose the self consciousness I experience when playing an instrument in front of others. I always felt impaired by this and secretly expect for it to go.

Behind this probably there is an emotional wound, which is not about believing in a self. This is part of the personality.

I expect to get more enjoyment from the world and experience childlike wonder in all things. To see things as new each time and not get bored through familiarity.

This is huge. Dear HaHo, you are expecting something HUGE! Like getting into heaven. You expect it to be a different state than what is normally happening. But it’s not a different state than what you are having now. It’s not a state. It’s an experiential recognition that there is no self at the core.

But it’s not about getting into some fantastic states, like almost stop being a human, and becoming a superhuman, or above all humanity. No. It’s the opposite. It’s very humbling.

A big one for me is the expected loss of the fear of death. I have invested too many hours into feeding this fear. With that said, there has been a significant fading of this over the last couple of years. Perhaps liberation would wipe out any remnants.

Maybe, or not at all. Seeing that there is no self is not an end, it’s just the beginning. It’s just a first step. Literally, step #1.

I think there could be a sort of wisdom accompanying liberation. The ability to look at the world’s problems and recognise what is wrong and have a good idea of how things could be improved

Sorry, but definitely no. It seems that you are after a self-improvement. Becoming a very special being. But it’s not about becoming special. It’s the opposite. It’s the falling away of all specialness.

Do not want to lose control. If the self was tempering certain emotions and impulses could I lose it and be a danger?

When it’s discovered that there is no separate self, at the same time it’s also seen that there is no control whatsoever, and has never been.

The thing is that it cannot be know in advance how it will be. Why? Because all expectations come on behalf of a separate self, who is always in a search for peace, happiness, lack of fear and suffering. We simply cannot imagine it, since we cannot step outside from the separate self’s perspective. We can only imagine it within the dream of me. The illusionary me is simply unable to imagine how it would be if it were discovered to be just a fictional character and not a reality. It can only imagine what it wants for itself.

Please ponder on my comments to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

Please really consider, if you really want to do this inquiry. Because what you expect it to be is not how it is. If you cannot let go of this expectations, you could be very disappointed. Or worse, you would sabotage yourself, and prevent real investigation.

After reading my comments, is this inquiry still what you want?

You are free to say no. No problem. Please make sure that you are deeply considering this.

Vivien

[HaHo]

Hi Vivien,

What name would you like me to call you?

I am okay being called by the username HaHo.

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

Upon first read there was a slight tickle to the ego. Something that said, “I am being challenged here and will need to think about whether or not I like it.” Upon further consideration I concluded that if I embraced honesty and transparency in my previous reply then why not continue in that vein and accept challenges to the ego without the usual response of being defensive. Let’s see how well I can stick to that!

After a few reads I can conclude that generally speaking I don’t feel wedded to the expectations I listed. The way I see it is if I expect a coin toss to be tails and it happens to be heads then I shrug my shoulders and accept it, “Ah, okay. It wasn’t actually tails but heads.” Perhaps there might be disappointment but I’m okay with that, should it be a prospect.

If Vivien says, “HaHo, you are expecting x, y and z but it’s not like that.”, I find it easy to accept.

With all of that said, he are the two expectations that I find are stickier:

1) The expectation that liberation will feel, in some way, familiar. Like, “I have known this before.”. But again, if this turns out not to be the case then fine, no problem. There’s nothing wrong with a little, or even big surprise. If it were absolutely nothing like I had expected then I think that would be exciting and possibly very amusing.

2) The thing about self consciousness and playing an instrument in front of people. This I find intriguing perhaps more than an expectation or desire. I would be very surprised if self consciousness, as an intermittent feeling, continued after liberation. After all, there would be no-one to get nervous in front of.

This is huge. Dear HaHo, you are expecting something HUGE! Like getting into heaven. You expect it to be a different state than what is normally happening. But it’s not a different state than what you are having now. It’s not a state. It’s an experiential recognition that there is no self at the core.

The above quote was in reply to my expectation:

I expect to get more enjoyment from the world and experience childlike wonder in all things. To see things as new each time and not get bored through familiarity.

Just a quick word on that. Thankyou! Thanks for bringing me down to Earth on that one. I have heard accounts from those who have expressed liberation in such a way that I have formed this expectation. I am also familiar with people who have talked about a pretty significant disappointment when the fireworks didn’t come. I can drop this expectation easily.

After reading my comments, is this inquiry still what you want?

Yes. More than ever. So all expectations originate from the Self and all knowing is confined within. Therefore any expectations or beliefs of what it’s like “outside” of the illusion are merely hopefull guesswork.

[Vivien]

Hi HaHo,

2) The thing about self consciousness and playing an instrument in front of people. This I find intriguing perhaps more than an expectation or desire. I would be very surprised if self consciousness, as an intermittent feeling, continued after liberation. After all, there would be no-one to get nervous in front of.

There is a slight chance that nervousness drops, but probably it won’t. The reason for nervousness is much deeper… there are many other beliefs keeping it at its place.

And there is another belief lurking here in the background. The assumption that when it’s seen that there is no self at the core, then the self will disappear. As if there were an actual self here, but upon looking, this self could vanish… and with that nervousness.

But there is no self here in this very moment, it has never been. And yet, nervousness has been here all along. The story that “I am nervous” is just an added layer to the baseline tendency/habit/conditioning for nervousness. It’s not the cause of it…. rather just a story ABOUT it.

The self will not vanish. It will not die, disappear or cease to exist. It’s not possible.
Something that has never existed cannot cease to be.
It’s just the discover that it has never ever been there! So there is nothing that could disappear.

Yes. More than ever. So all expectations originate from the Self and all knowing is confined within. Therefore any expectations or beliefs of what it’s like “outside” of the illusion are merely hopefull guesswork.

Yes. Then let’s start it.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

We start to investigating thoughts.

Generally, there seem to be two kinds of thoughts:

1. thoughts which content point to something which is directly experienced, now in the moment.
2. thoughts which content point to NOTHING in DE (direct experience), rather to other thoughts content / ideas / concepts; just an interpretation, a story ABOUT what is going on.

#1 would be ‘There is a table’, or ‘my hands are wet’, or ‘the flower is blooming’ - since something is SEEN at the moment, the thought points to something, even though table / hand / flower is just a label for something SEEN / EXPERIENCED.

#2 would be "I had dinner last night”, or “she said something nasty to me”, or “I want to be free”, or “I am going to do some shopping tomorrow”, etc.

Now please, gently observe your thoughts, noticing how they do their thing, chatting about this and about that, labelling, interpreting, giving meaning to events and things, analysing how things could have done differently, and so on.

While noticing the dance of thoughts, how they go around in loops trying to find verification for their own self-appointed truth…. check for yourself if the above given statement is true.

Are there two ways of thoughts or do you find more? If yes, please do give an example.

Does one set of thoughts point to something in DE and does the other one really point to another thought only?

Please spend a whole day looking at this. Check this again and again throughout your day.

Vivien

[HaHo]

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

Agreed. I’ll update this response throughout the day as and when there are things to write. Once complete I will post it on the forum.

I woke up in the middle of the night unexpectedly and read your message so actually started this task at 5:30am and interestingly got something worth reporting quite quickly, I think due to the fact I was in the middle of a sleep cycle. I will write about it under your next quoted question.

Have been at it for quite a few hours now and am taking a break. Hope it’s okay that I catch up on the news on the iPad.

I’m on the home straight now and am just back in from a long walk which has provided what I need to complete this task. I’ll say that I have found it quite challenging as it’s difficult to be objective when I’m at the heart of a thought stream. I found myself thinking “I was lost in thought there for some time, good now let’s put pen to paper” only to realise that I had failed to actually observe my thoughts and quite literally couldn’t remember a single one. I was too absorbed in thought. This difficulty may be due to my inexperience in this area as I have done next to no self enquiry.

Are there two ways of thoughts or do you find more? If yes, please do give an example.

Yes, I find a third. There are abstract thoughts. What I noticed last night while lying in between sleep cycles was a thought which can’t be put into words. It simply cannot be done. It wasn’t a visual or a feeling but a thought which I knew from before. It was like a kind of full presence like a massive object right in front of me, not spherical like a marble but more like a grey/brown mass which is uneven. I need to stress that while I have just described an object which can be visualized, it was definitely not an object imagined but a thought which would be impossible to visualize or describe.

Does one set of thoughts point to something in DE and does the other one really point to another thought only?

My response to this question will be written, not once I have the answer to it, but more as a progressive kind of discovery due to the fact I will be constantly updating and reporting my findings throughout the day.

I will aim to start by listing each type of thought and their attributes then writing what effects they seem to have or not have on each other. This will hopefully allow me to recognise how they relate to each other and lead to an answer to your question. (I give a direct answer to this question at the end).

DE Thoughts - the simplest to identify, yet not the most common. These are thoughts about what is actually happening, being noticed, or felt immediately and appear to be the trigger for commentaries in the head which comprise Non DE thoughts. There is a seamless transition between the two which goes unnoticed unless it’s looked for and DE thoughts seem to frequently trigger a thought stream composed of Non DE thoughts.

Non DE Thoughts - Often triggered by DE thoughts. In some cases it appears as though it’s possible to choose a Non DE thought to think about (more below).

An example of a DE thought leading to a Non DE thought stream is; while flossing my teeth I may get sensory feedback which leads to the DE thought, “I feel more space between those two teeth now.”. That triggers a Non DE thought stream which I seem to ride to it’s conclusion and which is effortless, “Could be a cavity, yes it has to be a cavity, maybe a filling fell out, do I have a filling on that tooth, I’ll phone the dentist, I hope it won’t cost a fortune as usual, why do they charge so much, vets are just as bad, if I could do it all again I’d be a vet or a dentist, actually no, I don’t fancy either job…”. These thought streams seem to either fade out or be interrupted by a new DE thought which changes the subject. They are the running commentary in my head. They take place in English language and seem to happen at a conversational pace.

I’m noticing more and more that DE thoughts seem to trigger a question which requires a response. That response is a Non DE thought stream dialogue. “That bird is flying very low across the water” “Oh yeah, what’s that called again?” “Can’t remember but they do it to be energy efficient….” OR “The time reads 1pm”, “Wow, didn’t expect it to be that late, right what’s happening today? What needs to be done? Okay, so I’ll….”. It’s as if DE thoughts create a need to know and the way we get our answers is by riding the thought stream. This would explain why the mind sometimes takes us back to replay the memory of an original DE thought so it gets another chance to ride a different thought stream in the hope of getting a satisfactory answer this time. Rinse and repeat until resolved.

I can also choose a subject to think about so Non DE thoughts don’t always come from DE thought triggers. For example there was the thought, “To get more of an answer to Vivien’s question I should try thinking about all sorts of different things.”. This thought led to, “Okay what will I think about?” the choice then came, “I’ll think about my friend Peter”. The question, “Okay, what will I think about?” didn’t appear to be chosen but it felt as thought the response “Peter” was a choice. I guess when I ask myself to think of a number between 1 and 10, the resulting thought is also a choice.

Sometimes I notice myself creating dialogue in Non DE thought and playing both myself and a chosen real person be it a friend or family member or stranger who I have encountered. The conversation takes place in English and occurs at a conversational pace. This is used for conflict resolution or searching for inspiration to solve a problem or sometimes experienced as daydreaming fantasy. Often it is a rerunning of a situation that started as DE.

I’m going to share another observation here, about thoughts, that I have noticed. While often I think in the spoken word in the English language and often it is at a slow and steady talking pace, there can also be what feels to be a more pure form of thinking. It is extremely quick. Earlier I noticed one of these thoughts. It appeared from nowhere and was like a pin prick in the mind. I’m pretty sure I somehow saw it, like visually but not with the eyes. It can be described like a compression file used in computers which are small in size and can be decompressed to reveal larger contents. This thought appeared and was instantly “decompressed” into a sentence of around six or seven words. I didn’t make a note of them. Upon reflection, the moment the pin prick thought materialized, I knew and understood the complete sentence quicker than I could have read it.

Another observation worth sharing is that I have noticed that DE thoughts and subsequent Non DE thought streams have a common denominator which is the Self. It’s Me that sees something in DE and Me that assesses it then decides upon an action. With thoughts around concepts and ideas the Self tends not to be centre stage unless it is brought in to be used as a case study of sorts. So if there is thinking about, “Does time exist? Where did the last five seconds go?”, the Self isn’t at the forefront but at any moment can show up, “If there really is no time, how does that affect me?”.

So to finish I’ll attempt to answer the question,

Does one set of thoughts point to something in DE and does the other one really point to another thought only?

I think I may be wrong as there could be something I didn't see today. Let’s find out.

Yes, one set of thoughts point to something in DE. Direct experience thoughts do that. The other set of thoughts, Non DE thoughts, point to other thoughts only. This is my answer because I saw the activity of the “mind” to be completely comprised of thoughts, regardless of them being concepts or ideas or thoughts about thoughts.

In the case of the abstract thought I described at the beginning, I’m not sure. It conjured up a feeling of fullness, like a bag of water that couldn’t hold any more but in terms of it pointing to anything, the jury is out on that one.

[Vivien]

Hi HaHo,

I won’t reply to everything you mentioned, just the once ‘next in line’ to see and discover :)

Have been at it for quite a few hours now and am taking a break. Hope it’s okay that I catch up on the news on the iPad.

Of course :) Just live your life, but integrate inquiry into your life. Look as often as you can, but it doesn’t mean that you have to stop living :)

Yes, I find a third. There are abstract thoughts. What I noticed last night while lying in between sleep cycles was a thought which can’t be put into words. It simply cannot be done. It wasn’t a visual or a feeling but a thought which I knew from before.

OK. So what you are talking here are visual thoughts / mental images, which we can also call as imagination.

It appeared from nowhere and was like a pin prick in the mind. I’m pretty sure I somehow saw it, like visually but not with the eyes.

This is also a mental image / visual thought / imagination.

An example of a DE thought leading to a Non DE thought stream is; while flossing my teeth I may get sensory feedback which leads to the DE thought, “I feel more space between those two teeth now.”.

Are you sure that this thought is about DE?
Isn’t this a mental comparison with a memory of there being a smaller space between those two teeth?
It cannot be a thought about DE if it involves comparison. Can you see this?

First, let’s look at what it is exactly that we call as DE.
Experience is what can be known through the 5 senses: color, sound, taste, smell, sensation
Also, we can notice the presence of a thought.
But the content of a thought is something very different.

So in reality there is the direct experience of the 5 senses… and there is thought content which ADDS something extra.

“I feel more space between those two teeth now.”.

Put your tongue to that gap.

Is there a DE of a gap or a space between two teeth?
What is the experience of the gap itself?
Is it a color? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Or a thought / mental image?

Here it is important to distinguish between what can be experienced in the moment - via senses - and what is content of thought, meaning added.

I’m noticing more and more that DE thoughts seem to trigger a question which requires a response. That response is a Non DE thought stream dialogue. “That bird is flying very low across the water”

Let’s look at if this thought is actual about experience, or there is already an added thought interpretation to it.

So there is something seen (color/shape) which is seen, and called ‘bird’. Yes. So far so good.

But what about flying? Isn’t that is already a thought interpretation on the raw experience of that color/shape moving?

And what about ‘flying very low….”?
What is the DE of very low?
Is it a color? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Or a thought concept?

Can we every say about a bird that it’s flying very low without comparing to a memory and concept of ‘flying high’?
Isn’t that comparison happens in thought only?

[HaHo]

Hi Vivien,

Your explanation of some thoughts being merely mental images / visual thought or imagination makes sense. Nothing special. This has brought up my desire to be special and I’ve noticed it being worked on in the mind a couple of times today. I’m interested to see if this resolves by itself as it feels as though it will.

“I feel more space between those two teeth now.”.
Are you sure that this thought is about DE?

Yes, I am now sure that this thought is not about direct experience. Interestingly, after some pondering, I deleted an accompanying sentence for this very reason. It was something like, “Something has changed in my mouth....”.

Isn’t this a mental comparison with a memory of there being a smaller space between those two teeth?

Yes, it is a mental comparison between the sensations of exploring the mouth with the tongue and a memory of a mental map of the inside of the mouth.

It cannot be a thought about DE if it involves comparison. Can you see this?

Yes, I can see that it cannot be a direct experience if the experience is coloured with something like a memory, comparison, opinion or judgement.

Put your tongue in that gap.
Is there a DE of a gap or a space between two teeth?

No, there is not a DE of a gap or space between two teeth. There is the DE of sensations on the tongue.

What is the experience of the gap itself?

The experience of the gap itself is the comparison between a mental map image of the mouth, one created at the time of writing and previous map images taken from memory.

Is it a color? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Or a thought / mental image?

It’s a mental image leading to a thought.

“That bird is flying very low across the water”
But what about flying? Isn’t that is already a thought interpretation on the raw experience of that color/shape moving?

Yes, absolutely. Basically, the direct experience is, “There are colours and shapes moving.”. Doesn’t “Bird” become too much because that is a comparison with everything that is not a bird and is reliant upon memory also?

And what about ‘flying very low….”?

This is colouring the thought of a bird with an assessment. Adding content to the thought.

What is the DE of very low?

There is no DE of very low.

Is it a color? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Or a thought concept?

A thought concept.

Can we every say about a bird that it’s flying very low without comparing to a memory and concept of ‘flying high’?
Isn’t that comparison happens in thought only?

I can see this clearly. You can’t have concepts or comparisons in direct experience. They are not direct. It seems that DE is the only raw data which is captured by the senses. It is direct and not coloured by memory, comparisons, concepts etc.

[HaHo]

EDIT: ...It seems that DE is only raw data which is captured by the senses...

[Vivien]

Hi HaHo,

Yes, it is a mental comparison between the sensations of exploring the mouth with the tongue and a memory of a mental map of the inside of the mouth.
Yes, I can see that it cannot be a direct experience if the experience is coloured with something like a memory, comparison, opinion or judgement.

Yes.

Yes, absolutely. Basically, the direct experience is, “There are colours and shapes moving.”. Doesn’t “Bird” become too much because that is a comparison with everything that is not a bird and is reliant upon memory also?

Yes, nice catch.

V: What is the experience of the gap itself?

H: The experience of the gap itself is the comparison between a mental map image of the mouth, one created at the time of writing and previous map images taken from memory.

But if this is a mental comparison, then how can this be the EXPERIENCE of the gap? Are you sure that this is an experience?

Is there ever be an experience of a gap between two teeth… Or…. There is only the experience of a raw sensation, and everything else is just a conceptual story/overlay about it? Just an added stuff?

Is there anything to a gap but a concept?

I can see this clearly. You can’t have concepts or comparisons in direct experience. They are not direct. It seems that DE is the only raw data which is captured by the senses. It is direct and not coloured by memory, comparisons, concepts etc.

Yes, excellent observations.

Here are two exercises for you along the same lines.

1. Take a piece of paper and divide it in two parts.
- In one part you mark each thought which content points to the intake of senses,
- on the other part you make a mark for all thoughts which don't point to anything in DE, like into the so called future/daydreams/plans or past/memory.

Take half an hour time for it or longer and have a look how the percentage is.

2. Play around and notice thoughts during the day, and label them according to which category they belong to.
Share what you find. This time please give a list of examples for both categories.

Do you notice that the ideas that appear as thoughts are not the same as direct sense experience? That they are something extra that is added on to the immediate experience?

Vivien

[HaHo]

But if this is a mental comparison, then how can this be the EXPERIENCE of the gap? Are you sure that this is an experience?

That’s interesting Vivien because while I knew, at this stage, that it couldn’t be a direct experience and had even stated that in an earlier question, I fell into the trap of reverting back to my default position of assuming that it is possible to experience a mental comparison.

I’ll need to keep my eye out for this. In a way it’s like bailing water out of a boat while it slowly continues to fill up from a leak, if that makes sense.

Is there ever be an experience of a gap between two teeth… Or…. There is only the experience of a raw sensation, and everything else is just a conceptual story/overlay about it? Just an added stuff?

The only experience is the raw sensation. Beyond that it is a concept of an “object” called a gap which leads to the story of needing dental treatment.

Take half an hour time for it or longer and have a look how the percentage is.

Approximately 20% thoughts pointing to the intake of senses vs 80% of all other thoughts which don’t point to DE. That 80% figure could have been higher as I didn’t count every thought (or sentence) within mental verbal commentary. Just one for each monologue as such.

Play around and notice thoughts during the day, and label them according to which category they belong to.
Share what you find. This time please give a list of examples for both categories.

Thoughts pointing to intake of senses:

a) The noise of a fan
b) Tension in the back
c) Tinnitus
d) Warmth
e) Visual aberration
f) Sensation

Thoughts not pointing to DE:

a) I can hear the pitch of the fan changing as it slows down
b) I’m not sure why my muscles feel a bit achy, as I haven’t been particularly active.
c) I’m pleased that the tinnitus doesn’t bother me, if it did I’d probably notice it more and that could be a vicious circle of suffering.
d) Think I’ll leave the heating on for a bit
e) That’s cool, the smudges on my glasses are creating an effect when I look at that LED light.
f) A mild feeling of dread. Right, that’s it. I’ve been procrastinating again. Tomorrow I’ll get it done. If I don’t, this uncomfortable sensation will just keep popping up.

Do you notice that the ideas that appear as thoughts are not the same as direct sense experience? That they are something extra that is added on to the immediate experience?

Each of the six examples above have been labelled because both lists relate to each other. So “a)” in the first list relates to “a)” on the second list.

So there is the raw data coming in through the senses and the noticing of whatever is happening is the experience. This morning I stood looking out over a beautiful vista and there were no thoughts initially, there was just the act of looking, so I’d say there was no experience at this point even though the brain was processing an image. In fact there was a recognition, “There are no thoughts”. Immediately there was the DE of colours and light and shapes, accompanied by a sense of awe. This led to a change from DE to thinking, which added content to the experiencing. I thought, “Wow, that is beautiful, the way the sun is lighting up the hills and the water is so calm...”

DE comes from nowhere and arrives, unannounced, out of the blue whereas all other thinking (that I’ve noticed so far) is triggered by, and a reaction to, DE.

In terms of what they seem to be made of, DE is the actuality of the occurrence whereas everything else is in thought only. In that regard they are very different although I can see how they appear indistinguishable.

[Vivien]

Hi HaHo,

That’s interesting Vivien because while I knew, at this stage, that it couldn’t be a direct experience and had even stated that in an earlier question, I fell into the trap of reverting back to my default position of assuming that it is possible to experience a mental comparison.

I’ll need to keep my eye out for this. In a way it’s like bailing water out of a boat while it slowly continues to fill up from a leak, if that makes sense.

It's very important that you don’t approach this is a memory exercise. So this is not something to be able to remember. That wouldn’t help. Rather, always check it afresh… always look at the same thing in experience, again and again. This is inquiry is about a repeated looking. Be careful that you always look and not just remember what has been seen in a previous looking. Since it doesn’t matter much what I saw yesterday or even a minute ago, what matter what I can see now, and now… and now.

I wrote a blog post about this, please read it, it might help:
https://fadingveiling.com/2020/10/04/no ... -here-now/

Approximately 20% thoughts pointing to the intake of senses vs 80% of all other thoughts which don’t point to DE. That 80% figure could have been higher as I didn’t count every thought (or sentence) within mental verbal commentary. Just one for each monologue as such.

20% for DE thoughts is huge. So probably you mistake some thoughts about just more thoughts as thoughts about experience. Usually it’s less than 1%. It’s quite rare :)

c) Tinnitus

Is tinnitus an experience? Or rather it’s a concept, a medical term for a certain type of sound?

Just notice, if the sound is labelled as ‘tinnitus’, then the experience SEEMINGLY changes by that label. Since that label brings so much information about… it ADDS a lot of stuff to the simplicity of experience of a sound. Can you see this?

e) Visual aberration

Are you sure that ‘aberration’ pointing to DE?
What is the experience of ‘aberration’?
Is it a color? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Or a thought concept?

I stood looking out over a beautiful vista and there were no thoughts initially, there was just the act of looking, so I’d say there was no experience at this point

Are you saying that there is no experience without a thought narration?

Please look out the window right now.
Is the colors and shapes are directly experienced in that very moment?
Are thoughts needed for experience to be?
Or experience is there regardless of the presence of the absence of thoughts?

there was no experience at this point even though the brain was processing an image.

Are you sure about that? Yes, this is what we learn in school… but is this your immediate experience?
Do you experience a brain processing images?

What is the experience of brain in this very moment as you observe it?
Is it a color? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Or a thought / mental image only?

Vivien

[HaHo]

Hi Vivien,

Thanks for the blog post link. I like it.

Is tinnitus an experience? Or rather it’s a concept, a medical term for a certain type of sound?

Tinnitus is not an experience, it is a word which represents a medical term and the word evokes a high pitched sound in the head. The sound itself is the experience.

Just notice, if the sound is labelled as ‘tinnitus’, then the experience SEEMINGLY changes by that label. Since that label brings so much information about… it ADDS a lot of stuff to the simplicity of experience of a sound. Can you see this?

Yes, there can be just the experiencing of the sound itself and then if the sound gets labelled then there can be the sound in the background with thoughts of potential diagnosis, treatments, etc., coming to the fore.

e) Visual aberration
Are you sure that ‘aberration’ pointing to DE?

It’s not. “Aberration” points to what category or type of visual is being seen. But direct experience isn’t about the labels. This particular DE was simply “A visual”.

What is the experience of ‘aberration’?

There is no experience of “aberration”.

Is it a color? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Or a thought concept?

Aberration is a concept.

I stood looking out over a beautiful vista and there were no thoughts initially, there was just the act of looking, so I’d say there was no experience at this point

Are you saying that there is no experience without a thought narration?

No, but I can see why you’ve asked the question as the way I phrased it was misleading. A clearer version is, “I stood looking out over a beautiful vista. There were no thoughts. There was just looking. There was no experiencing. Then there was DE followed by thought.

As I see it presently, the four stages are:

Raw sensory input
Attention lands upon a sensory stimulus or attention is drawn to stimulus
Direct Experience occurs
A thought occurs

What I was getting at is that I have noticed there can be a distinction between DE and something prior to that where there is no experiencing, yet all the senses are functioning.

Now that I have re-read the above, I’d say that stages 2 & 3 are the same thing. So attention landing on something is the experience.

Please look out the window right now.
Is the colors and shapes are directly experienced in that very moment?

Yes, instantly.

Are thoughts needed for experience to be?

Definitely not.

Or experience is there regardless of the presence of the absence of thoughts?

It’s there regardless.

there was no experience at this point even though the brain was processing an image.

Are you sure about that?

Yes, this is what we learn in school… but is this your immediate experience?
Do you experience a brain processing images?
What is the experience of brain in this very moment as you observe it?
Is it a color? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Or a thought / mental image only?

I think there are two things here. Firstly, the brain is a concept and there is no experiencing of the brain processing images. It's a convenient story about how things are and work. A mental image.

Secondly, is whether I’m kidding myself believing I observe something prior to DE. From what I see, there can be looking without DE and then when attention is on something being looked at, namely a subject, then there is DE. Same with other senses. There can be hearing without hearing something. Then, when attention is on something being heard, that is the direct experience.

[Vivien]

Hi HaHo,

Secondly, is whether I’m kidding myself believing I observe something prior to DE.

I nodded when I read this :) yes, that’s really possible.

How do you know that there is anything prior to DE? How do you know that if you have no experience of it?
Do you really know that? or maybe this is just a thought assumption?

from what I see, there can be looking without DE

How can there be looking with having an experience?

Look at the display before you.
Can seeing happen without experiencing colors?
Is seeing and the color two separate things?
Can you find seeing independent of colors?

There can be hearing without hearing something.

Are you sure? Would you put your life on it? :)

How could you know that there is a hearing without hearing something?
Is this really what experience show, or is this just an unquestioned assumption/thought?

Notice any sound in the room.
Can there be hearing without experiencing the sound?
Is hearing and the sound two separate things?
Can you find hearing independent of sounds?

Firstly, the brain is a concept and there is no experiencing of the brain processing images. It's a convenient story about how things are and work. A mental image.

Yes, good to discover this :)

Vivien