Is the 'I' still in the corners?

[Elonihme]

This is translated from Finnish, the guiding will be in English and Elonihme will use a translation (both google and human).
Thank you!

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Intellectually I understand, that me is only a thought. The same way I understand by experience, that I is a thought, which raises a feeling about me/I

What are you looking for at LU?
I seek research, which goes deep inside and direct clear questions, which has a power to reveals the finest lies. I'm looking for a guide, who has own experience about this. I'm not looking for dogma and nothing more.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I'm waiting for clarity, honest and deep looking revealing research/exploring and seeing. I'm waiting for good, deep, revealing questions and exercises which lead to direct looking in everyday life, on this moment.

What kind of experience do you have with the so-called. spiritual exercises, searching and exploring?
A lot, a lot of experience about spiritual exercises and also non-productive searching

On a scale of 1 to 10, how willing are you to question your current beliefs about yourself?
10

[Florisness]

Hi Elonihme,

First of all, I would be willing to do the exploration with you if you like. But there is also, at least 1 as far as I know, Finnish guide. If you would like that more, tell me and then I can ask around for a Finnish speaking guide.

If not and you're happy to do it in English, then we can continue:)

All the best,
Floris

[Florisness]

Hi Elonihme,

From the guide who speaks Finnish I heard that you already had a conversation and you both planned to let you talk with someone else. In that case, I'll start of by giving you something to reply to and try to keep our conversation as clear and simple in language usage as I can.

Intellectually I understand, that me is only a thought. The same way I understand by experience, that I is a thought, which raises a feeling about me/I

You write here something I don't quite get yet. The second sentence seems to mean to me that you know by experience that I is only thought. But if this is clear I don't see why you would still be asking for guidance. Can you clarify?:-)

Here something for you to explore and reply to:
Please sit down, relax, close your eyes. Then investigate the sense of I/me. First try to create a strong sense of I/me/Elonihme and then look at that. What is that and what happened? Did you for example bring up a thought of the body and was there a feeling that came with that thought? Try doing the same but with a different thought, for example a thought of a car/piano/brick/shoe. Is the thought of your body, and the feeling that came with that, more you than the thought of the car or of the feeling that came when thinking about the car? What are your thoughts on all this?

With love,
Floris

[Elonihme]

Hi Floris,

I would preferably do this in Finnish if possible.
But I use a google translator if no guidance is available in Finnish.
Therefore, keep the sentences short.
I started this tutorial with a guide in Finnish called Thefinn.

-Elonihme

[Elonihme]

Hi Floris,

Intellectual understanding alone is not enough.
It has been a good start.

This was a good exercise.
I find that I think perception / consciousness is me.

That is, the subtle feeling that the observer is me.
This is not clear in my experience.

With love,

-Elonihme

[Florisness]

Dear Elonihme,

Very nice to see a reply back from you.

I would preferably do this in Finnish if possible.
But I use a google translator if no guidance is available in Finnish.
Therefore, keep the sentences short.
I started this tutorial with a guide in Finnish called Thefinn.

I understand.Yes I've written a couple sentences with Thefinn. I'll try keeping it short and easy, okay.

This was a good exercise.
I find that I think perception / consciousness is me.

That is, the subtle feeling that the observer is me.
This is not clear in my experience.

Thank you, I understand. Next time can you quote the questions I gave (in exercises) and reply underneath to that, please? I think that will make it a little easier:)

Here an exercise in response to your feeling the observer is you:

Most people think and feel that they are entities who are perceiving things. This is evident in statements such as 'I am seeing a hand'. There are 3 assumptions there we could investigate now:
- The 'I am' which is seeing the hand'
- The 'seeing' which is what this 'I' is doing/undergoing
- The 'hand' which is the seen object by the 'I'.

So far easy and understandable, right? So let's investigate this.
Please take a moment so that you can be undisturbed and relaxed. Than take an object, for example, take your hand, or any other object you like and look at it. Then answer these questions from your experience:
- Can you find an I which is (doing) seeing?
- Can you find eyes or anything else, which are (doing) seeing?
- Can you find the experience 'the seen thing/object' (e.g. the hand) going to a place in the head where it is received?
- Can you find something/entity which is interpreting the seen thing?

The following part might be harder to write simple, so you understand. If you don't understand, it's okay, never mind. Now, 'go to' (notice) the experience called seeing, and then 'go to' the experience, we call the seen thing (e.g. the hand). Toggle/switch your attention between the experience of these two things, i.e. the 'seeing' and the 'seen thing(s)', and answer:
- Can you find a difference between what you call seeing and the seen?
- Would it be accurate to say these are the same experience/thing?

Now, what do you think about the statement 'I see a hand'? Is it accurate? Is this your experience? If it doesn't seem to be your experience, than how would you describe what is going on? Maybe 'I', 'seeing', and 'hand' are all "wrapped up" in/as one thing?

Much love,
Floris

[Elonihme]

Hello Floris,

Can you find an I which is (doing) seeing?

Yes! If I go really deep, I can’t find myself looking.
Everything disappears.

Can you find eyes or anything else, which are (doing) seeing?
- Can you find the experience 'the seen thing/object' (e.g. the hand) going to a place in the head where it is received?

In this mode, I also cannot find eyes or an object.

Can you find something/entity which is interpreting the seen thing?

The mind interprets the experience afterwards and says "it was me" But this cannot be trusted.
This is a lie. The lies are so deep in this society. They are easily believed. Thank you for helping to question.

Can you find a difference between what you call seeing and the seen?
- Would it be accurate to say these are the same experience/thing?

Really, when I go to my own experience I can’t find a difference between the two.

Now, what do you think about the statement 'I see a hand'?

"Seeing" happens, but no one to whom it happens.

Sorry, the answers are pretty short.

Thank you,

-Elonihme

[Florisness]

Hi Elonihme,

Nice to see and read your message! I'm happy to see that you understood it all fairly well. Have you only used Google Translate?

Sorry, the answers are pretty short.

That's okay!

The mind interprets the experience afterwards and says "it was me" But this cannot be trusted.
This is a lie. The lies are so deep in this society. They are easily believed. Thank you for helping to question.

that somehow made me laugh, thank you. And yes I agree, the confusion goes deep in this society.

Yes! If I go really deep, I can’t find myself looking.
Everything disappears.

You mean, you don't find a self/person looking? Normally I would go on to other senses (like hearing), but you use the word "myself" here, and I would like to hook in to this so let's leave the other senses for now. Maybe we go to other senses later.

Can you take a moment to sit and close your eyes, and then look for what "myself" refers to. What do you find? Here some more questions for you to investigate:
- Can you find any thing, that you could hang/put the label 'biological entity, seperate self, person, Elonihme' on?
- Can you find any thing, that is owning, or having a past? Maybe a little more tricky to answer, but stick to your experience.
- Can you find any thing, like an entity that is managing/controlling life. Like can you find any evidence that there is a self/entity that is reading this, writing a reply, thinking?
- Can you find any thing, that could own things? For example, sometimes we say 'this is my life'. Is there any thing that owns life? Or any thing there, that owns the body? That owns thoughts?

Much love,
Floris

[Elonihme]

Hi Floris,

Have you only used Google Translate?

Yes.

Yes! If I go really deep, I can’t find myself looking.
Everything disappears.
You mean, you don't find a self/person looking?

Yes that is what i meant. In a deep state of meditation, this is clear.
But in practical everyday life, this is easily blurred.

I'm confused and I will investigate this a little more deeply.
I will examine your real questions in more depth and return to this tomorrow.

With love,

Elonihme

[Florisness]

Hi Elonihme,

Yes that is what i meant. In a deep state of meditation, this is clear.
But in practical everyday life, this is easily blurred.

I'm confused and I will investigate this a little more deeply.

I see. I wonder, why it isn't clear now? Maybe in a state of deep meditation the feeling of being a looker subsides for you, and you feel more comfortable trusting the idea of there not being an observer entity. But in your everyday life, this feeling and thoughts of 'the observer' becomes more dominant, and that makes you doubt? But isn't 'the observer you' only a feeling, with probably a thought of like a 'observing head' that is present there, that gives the impression of being an observer?

You can if you like, investigate this in a state of meditation. But if you want, you can also just use your normal everyday awareness and look at what you actually do and don't experience. No need for conclusions so much, just keep sticking to (or looking at) your experience. That's pretty much all that's needed!

And sure, I'll await your next response.

With love,
Floris

[Elonihme]

Hi Floris,

But in your everyday life, this feeling and thoughts of 'the observer' becomes more dominant, and that makes you doubt?

Yes. This is the crux of the "problem."

-Elonihme

[Elonihme]

Hi Flores,

Thanks for your questions! Sorry it took.
I study the matter in everyday tasks.

Can you take a moment to sit and close your eyes, and then look for what "myself" refers to. What do you find? Here some more questions for you to investigate:
- Can you find any thing, that you could hang/put the label 'biological entity, seperate self, person, Elonihme' on?
- Can you find any thing, that is owning, or having a past? Maybe a little more tricky to answer, but stick to your experience.
- Can you find any thing, like an entity that is managing/controlling life. Like can you find any evidence that there is a self/entity that is reading this, writing a reply, thinking?
- Can you find any thing, that could own things? For example, sometimes we say 'this is my life'. Is there any thing that owns life? Or any thing there, that owns the body? That owns thoughts?

The fact is that the "I" is not / is not found in the deep state of meditation or in everyday life.
After some mundane event, the thought “I slept well”, “I slept badly” arises and this has not been questioned / this has not been looked at. This is a mere thought a mere lie.

With love,

-Elonihme / miracle of life

[Florisness]

Hi there Elonihme,

Thanks for your questions! Sorry it took.
I study the matter in everyday tasks.

Good! And to keep it on topic, is there some sort of findable self/entity/Elonihme that is studying these matters in everyday tasks? Or perhaps when you look at what is actually here, only life (that's just a word too) is found? In my experience, 'I' only find what we could call life, or awareness. If the word 'I' should refer to anything, I would put it to be that, this awareness, this life. This "piece" of life, can then become confused by thinking it is the body, and stories arise like 'I am x years old, a man/woman, mother or husband, blahblah'. Does that match with your experience?

The fact is that the "I" is not / is not found in the deep state of meditation or in everyday life.
After some mundane event, the thought “I slept well”, “I slept badly” arises and this has not been questioned / this has not been looked at. This is a mere thought a mere lie.

Good observations!

Please wiggle your fingers for me. Then look at if you can find something doing that. What do you find?

With love,
Floris

[Elonihme]

And to keep it on topic, is there some sort of findable self/entity/Elonihme that is studying these matters in everyday tasks?

I Can not find,
but when communicating, the word "I" is very practical and accustomed to it.

Please wiggle your fingers for me. Then look at if you can find something doing that. What do you find?

The "finger" spins - it just happens. Hard to put into words without starting to tell a story.

With love,

-Elonihme

[Florisness]

I Can not find,
but when communicating, the word "I" is very practical and accustomed to it.

That's good, just wanted to make sure. How do you feel about not finding anything that can be called a person/self? A sense of doubt, or does it actually feel, for example, a little more spacious?

The "finger" spins - it just happens. Hard to put into words without starting to tell a story.

Maybe you'll like the following investigation, it goes further on something we already talked about, but goes a little deeper too.

Often we say things like 'I hear a noise'. Let's explore that in the same way as with the 'I see a tree'. Notice the sounds that are going on around you and inquire:
- can you find something which is doing the hearing? An I, ears, a body..
- Can you find 'hearing', or can you just find the sound? Or we could turn it around, and say we only experience hearing?
- do you notice how images/thoughts are imposed onto the experience?

After doing that, is 'I hear a sound/bird/car' an accurate description of your experience? If not, how would you phrase it to make it as accurate as possible?
---------------------------------------------------------
We can take this into a little other direction. Sit down, relax, close your eyes. And focus on the sounds you're hearing around you. These sounds are usually called or thought of as outside of you. Now make an 'internal sound' in your mind. These sounds are usually called or thought of as inside you. Now if you go back and forth with your attention between these two sounds (the outside and inside sound), there should be a border of sorts that your attention passes if there really is such a thing as an inside or outside. Check this, go from what is called the inside sound, to the outside sound, and see if you can find a boundary or border where the inside space is left, and outside space is gone into by attention. Is such a border found? Is there a place where the inside space stops, and an outside space begins, or could it be all the same space?

I hope you understand!

Love,
Floris