MindLikeSky

[0peri]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
LU provides tailored pointing out instructions so that all notions of an I, separate from experience, can be seen through. I and me are thoughts I habitually entertain, not an actual thinker. There is no thinker. Thoughts happen, the body and world appear, what I am is an ongoing response to what arises in experience.

What are you looking for at LU?
Help with the following so I may live free from confusion about how things are: releasing the search and the searcher; releasing the wanter and the wanted; releasing the victim and the perpetrator; releasing the avoider and the avoided; releasing the story and the storyteller.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
See above. To be held to account and directed to look anywhere and everywhere I have previously avoided so that I may be clear about how things are. Accountability, direction, thoroughness, clarity.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Course in Miracles, Gangaji, Tibetan Buddhist Practitioner/meditator, Rupert Spira, Robert Adams

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Vivien]

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I can assist you with your inquiry.

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards investigating that what it is that you mistake for a self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

When you say, you want to be guided to realise that there is no self, what do you expect that this realisation should look like?
What benefits do you expect from seeing no self?
What would stay the same?
What you do not want to happen?

Please look at these and reply with some detail and full honestly.

Vivien

[0peri]

Can we agree on these?

Yes, thank you for being willing to work with me Vivien, I appreciate your time

When you say, you want to be guided to realise that there is no self, what do you expect that this realisation should look like?

I know expecting anything is problematic and attempting to replicate a prior experience is a fool’s errand. However, there was an experience I had about a year after starting to meditate, where 4-5 hours passed during which my mind stopped? and I was awake, and radically alive. To think about the past or the future would require me to step away from myself, so I didn’t. It was as if I could see a thought forming on the horizon and it would melt when I looked at it. It didn’t occur to me at the time that this was an experience of no self, but rather an experience of being fully what I am, natural, vibrant, open and at ease. The story of Abraham and Isaac made sense for the first time. I would have willingly sacrificed my child to have not fallen back to sleep. Eventually, I got tired and literally fell asleep; the next morning the view was only available as a memory.

I have since had other experiences where there was just walking, or listening, and recognition that what I am, is not separate from what is, yet the I seems to reappear. It’s like a bad habit.

Over the years it seems to me that through practice my self has worn thin. I don’t tend to worry, be anxious or plan. I don’t struggle much, yet I’m still aware of resistance, a harsh presence, sometimes fear. If I remember, I look at who/what resists, rather than what is resisted and it dissipates.

What benefits do you expect from seeing no self?

Less likely to engage in habituated patterns, more spacious, less reactive, able to express and relate from a more full place. Increased capacity to meet whatever comes up.

What would stay the same?

Experience would stay the same, how I respond to it would change.

What you do not want to happen?

I do not want to give into the part of me that can go unresponsive and refuse to engage this process.

Peri

[Vivien]

Hi Peri,

Yes, thank you for being willing to work with me Vivien, I appreciate your time

You are welcome :)

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

there was an experience I had about a year after starting to meditate, where 4-5 hours passed during which my mind stopped? and I was awake, and radically alive.

So probably you had a ‘spiritual experience’, which was a state. But the thing is that seeing that there is no separate self at the core is not a state, and it has no requirements. What I mean by that? I mean that the ‘mind’ doesn’t have to stop in order to see that the self is just a myth.

To think about the past or the future would require me to step away from myself, so I didn’t. It was as if I could see a thought forming on the horizon and it would melt when I looked at it.

This description still imply a subtle form of a self… or.. it has been interpreted through the lens of a separate entity. Since there was still something that had the ability to think or not think about the past, and thus stepping away from itself.

but rather an experience of being fully what I am, natural, vibrant, open and at ease.

What if there is nothing that could be an I? What if there is only openness and ease without an I being it? We will look into this.

I have since had other experiences where there was just walking, or listening, and recognition that what I am, is not separate from what is, yet the I seems to reappear. It’s like a bad habit.

Seeing that there is no separate self is not about eliminating the illusion or appearance of a me. Rather it’s about seeing that regardless of the illusion being present, there is nothing there. It’s just a mirage in the desert.

Ease or peace is a state, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about seeing that emotions don’t belong to anything. They are free floating without being tied to or anchored to anything.

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual. Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.

Over the years it seems to me that through practice my self has worn thin. I don’t tend to worry, be anxious or plan. I don’t struggle much, yet I’m still aware of resistance, a harsh presence, sometimes fear. If I remember, I look at who/what resists, rather than what is resisted and it dissipates.

Just because there is resistance it doesn’t mean that there is a me who resists. Seeing through the self and not resisting what is are not the same. Resistance of what is still goes on after the self is seen for what it is. Resistance is the result of many-many years of conditionings and it’s based on many other beliefs that is keeping it going. Resistance is not just about a self. A huge web of beliefs holding the structure together. But this can be looked at and undone with further investigation.

Less likely to engage in habituated patterns, more spacious, less reactive, able to express and relate from a more full place. Increased capacity to meet whatever comes up.

When there is any form of suffering, it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added narrative.

And the personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through. All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. The falling away of conditioning can last at the end of the organism.

Experience would stay the same, how I respond to it would change.

Yes, in the long run. But probably not at the beginning. It takes time to notice and undo old patters, especially when they are linked to emotional scars. Some patterns might fall away at the beginning, and some other, probably most, stay and need further investigation to gradually loosen them up.

The reason for those questions were to find out what expectations you have how it would be like or feel like when the separate self is seen through. Many have the idea that it’s a special state of bliss, happiness, peace and constant ease; and a happy state has to be present as evidence of having had the realization. But the realization is often quite subtle, and it can be hidden by expectations. When there is any sort of expectation, there is a comparison between the preconceived ideas of what it should be like and what is seen, with the conclusion “This not IT”.

Please ponder on my comments to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?

Vivien

[0peri]

Vivien, wow, thank you for the considered thoroughness of your response.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

I can see how expectation obscures what is actually happening and could cause me to overlook what’s actually there.

So probably you had a ‘spiritual experience’, which was a state. But the thing is that seeing that there is no separate self at the core is not a state, and it has no requirements. What I mean by that? I mean that the ‘mind’ doesn’t have to stop in order to see that the self is just a myth.

Great.

What if there is nothing that could be an I?

This question opened a chasm.

What if there is only openness and ease without an I being it? We will look into this.

Again, a gaping silence.

Ease or peace is a state, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about seeing that emotions don’t belong to anything. They are free floating without being tied to or anchored to anything.

Emotions as weather with no need to tell a story about where they came from and why they’re present.

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual. Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.

Got it. It’s not a fleeting state, it’s a simple fact. It doesn’t come and go.

Just because there is resistance it doesn’t mean that there is a me who resists. Seeing through the self and not resisting what is are not the same. Resistance of what is still goes on after the self is seen for what it is. Resistance is the result of many-many years of conditionings and it’s based on many other beliefs that is keeping it going. Resistance is not just about a self. A huge web of beliefs holding the structure together. But this can be looked at and undone with further investigation.

This is a very helpful distinction and this investigation interests me. There was some hope that letting go of the belief in a self would be the pin that unraveled the entire web. I’ll drop that hope/expectation.

When there is any form of suffering, it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added narrative.

It’s hard to grok wounds without a wounded.

And the personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through. All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. The falling away of conditioning can last at the end of the organism.

Thanks, this is clarifying. The recognition does not a put an end to habituated patterns, though may facilitate the process in time.

The reason for those questions were to find out what expectations you have how it would be like or feel like when the separate self is seen through. Many have the idea that it’s a special state of bliss, happiness, peace and constant ease; and a happy state has to be present as evidence of having had the realization. But the realization is often quite subtle, and it can be hidden by expectations. When there is any sort of expectation, there is a comparison between the preconceived ideas of what it should be like and what is seen, with the conclusion “This not IT”.

Yes, this drives home why it’s so important to let any expectations go. It is clear that they can be a formidable obstacle.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.

Will do.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

Yes

Is there any resistance to any of it?

Strangely, no.

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?

Yes

Grateful, Peri

[Vivien]

Hi Peri,

Got it. It’s not a fleeting state, it’s a simple fact. It doesn’t come and go.

Yes, it’s an experiential recognition of the simple fact that the self is just a myth not a reality.

Thanks, this is clarifying. The recognition does not a put an end to habituated patterns, though may facilitate the process in time.

Yes.

All right, let’s start it then.

The self is thought to be the thinker of thoughts, the doer of deeds, the chooser, the decider, the experiencer, the observer, and as that a tangible entity, isn't it?

Or maybe you perceive it differently? How do you perceive the self / I?

Please make sure that you really check your perception of the self/I in your everyday life. So here we are interested in how the self shows up for you in your daily life, and not what is your intellectual understanding of it.

Can you tell me in simple words where you find a self?
In the body, in the story, in the fridge – wherever?

So spend a whole day on this, looking as often as you can. You just simply turn your attention where the self is.

Vivien

[0peri]

Hi Vivien,

Can you tell me in simple words where you find a self?

Hmm, well, when I'm still and quiet and turn my attention toward my self there's just looking, listening, breathing, and thoughts arising. There is no nugget of Peri to be found in this body. When I get up and move about, the sense of being somebody is often present, especially if I'm speeding about, getting stuff done. While at the computer working or procrastinating, there's often a numb quality that feels like a self. However, if I turn my attention toward the numb/self, it shifts, opens. The "I" can also appear in a story, especially if it's about wanting something or navigating some imagined scenario. It's definitely not a steady presence, more like an earworm that comes and goes.

Peri

[Vivien]

Hi Peri,

You did a nice investigation.

While at the computer working or procrastinating, there's often a numb quality that feels like a self. However, if I turn my attention toward the numb/self, it shifts, opens.

Turn your attention to this ‘numb self’. What do you find there?
Do you find an actual self/I there? Or just a numbness?

Is numbness a self/person? Or it’s just a sensation?

It's definitely not a steady presence, more like an earworm that comes and goes.

Yes, this seeming self / I is not a solid thing, it’s good to see this.

The "I" can also appear in a story, especially if it's about wanting something or navigating some imagined scenario.

Is there a difference between this seeming self and a character in a book?

Is Peri more real than Batman or Santa?

Please stay with these for a whole day, and investigate them as often as you can.

Vivien

[0peri]

Hello Vivien,

I just spent an hour scrolling through twitter reading Georgia Senate runoff election banter to get good and numb. Very effective.

Turn your attention to this ‘numb self’. What do you find there?

A sort of dull thrum in my head and limbs, shallow breathing, a high pitched sound, headachy pain near left occiput and behind the left eye.The pain is quite intense.

Do you find an actual self/I there? Or just a numbness?

A collection of sensations that start out quite differentiated but begin to blur into a more seamless field of pulsing.They're all happening here and what I think I am is here. Okay, It's starting to feel like what I've called the self is just the tension amidst all that's arising.

Is numbness a self/person? Or it’s just a sensation?

I don't seem to know what a person is right now, but numbness is just a sensation.

Is there a difference between this seeming self and a character in a book?

Not at all.

Is Peri more real than Batman or Santa?

I've believed in her longer than I ever did Santa. One doesn't need to believe in the real.

Thank you, Vivien. Can't say more tonight, wiped out. Two hours of exploration yielded few words, though a rich experience.

Peri

[Vivien]

Hi Peri,

You did a nice investigation.

A collection of sensations that start out quite differentiated but begin to blur into a more seamless field of pulsing.They're all happening here and what I think I am is here. Okay, It's starting to feel like what I've called the self is just the tension amidst all that's arising.

This is a nice catch.

So certain sensations are being labelled as ‘tension’ or ‘numbness’, and then this is being further labelled as ‘I’. Can you see this?

We can look together what is taken as the self, the I. What we will do is learn how the story of the self is built and woven and how it gets its strong credibility. We are checking what is here now in experience that is being mislabelled or misinterpreted as a self/I, and then we check if what we found in our immediate experience is actual a real I, an autonomous entity, or this I just a myth.

Can you find a self, a me / I in experience?

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken. This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it.
Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

Vivien

[0peri]

Hello Vivien,

Thank you for the encouragement and pushing me to explore further.

Does the sense of self have a location?

Upon investigation my sternum is activated, later it’s the base of the skull on the left side, and then an inch behind the flesh of my face. Let’s go with no. Everything shifts and changes.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Nothing solid or fixed, if anything, it feels like a murmuration.

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

No.

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

Constriction or tension

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

No image. No Taste. No Smell. The presence of thoughts has suggested a self in the past but it’s clear that they just arise and I have no control over them. There’s a persistent high drone that I may be associating with a sense of self. Also, a sense of being condensed or bound that also comes and goes.

Can you find a self, a me / I in experience?

It’s feeling more and more like being completely engrossed in a novel and avidly following the storyline, so much so that when they are about to do the next stupid thing, you throw the book across the room and you sob when tragedy strikes. I’m the reader of the book, but I’m not in the book/experience.


Peri

[Vivien]

Hi Peri,

V: Does the sense of self have a location?

P: Upon investigation my sternum is activated, later it’s the base of the skull on the left side, and then an inch behind the flesh of my face. Let’s go with no. Everything shifts and changes.

OK. So different locations (sensations) in the body is being mislabelled as a ‘sense of me’.

Please go to those locations one by one, and investigate if you can actually find a me there. Can you? Or you can only ever find sensations?

V: Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

P: Constriction or tension

So there are some sensations that are labelled as ‘constriction’ or ‘tension’.

But what make a tension into a self / me?

Is that tension actually an I? An entity that thinks and feels? Or that is just a simple, everyday contracted sensation, nothing more?

There’s a persistent high drone that I may be associating with a sense of self.

So what is that high drone? Isn’t that just a sound?
What makes that sound into an autonomous entity?
Is that sound actually an I, or is that just a plain, high pitched sound?

Also, a sense of being condensed or bound that also comes and goes.

Please go to this sense of being condensed or bound. What is it that you actually experience there? Isn’t this just another contracted or tense sensation?

Is that contracted sensation a person? Is that sensation Peri? Or it’s just an everyday contracted sensation (as a muscle contraction), nothing more?

I’m the reader of the book, but I’m not in the book/experience.

OK, let’s dig a bit deeper here.

Are you saying that there are two I-s there? One in the story, and another one outside the story, reading it?

Isn’t the thought “I am the reader of the book, but I’m not in the book/experience” is just another line (thought) IN the story?

Vivien

[0peri]

Hi Vivien,

Please go to those locations one by one, and investigate if you can actually find a me there. Can you? Or you can only ever find sensations?

There are only sensations, no me.

Is that tension actually an I?

It’s just a sensation.

Are you saying that there are two I-s there? One in the story, and another one outside the story, reading it?

That’s probably two too many I’s.

Isn’t the thought “I am the reader of the book, but I’m not in the book/experience” is just another line (thought) IN the story?

Yes, the story of Peri having an epiphany.

What knows this?












Peri

[Vivien]

Hi Peri,

Probably you posted your answers before finishing them? There are several questions that you haven’t reply to. Could you please check those?

Have a nice day,
Vivien

[0peri]

Hi Vivien,

Here are the one's that didn't make it in the last entry.

So what is that high drone? Isn’t that just a sound?

It's a sound. Where it comes from is rather mysterious, but isn’t everything! What is happening? Is anything actually happening?

What makes that sound into an autonomous entity?

Nothing. There is nothing autonomous, and it’s clearly no entity.
Perhaps it was the seeming sameness and constancy that was mistaken for a potential self.

Is that sound actually an I, or is that just a plain, high pitched sound?

It is just a sound, only that.

Please go to this sense of being condensed or bound. What is it that you actually experience there? Isn’t this just another contracted or tense sensation?

It’s hard to say much more about the experience than it feels dense. Yes, it’s an experience of contraction and tension, again, merely sensations.

Is that contracted sensation a person?

Not a person.

Is that sensation Peri?

What’s a Peri? Seems like a label that’s been assigned to a constantly shifting set of sensations, appearances, thoughts, values, preferences.

Or it’s just an everyday contracted sensation (as a muscle contraction), nothing more?

Nothing more.

What is answering these questions? Apparently, not somebody, not something.

Best, Peri