My journey

[Punjab1]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Living a life without me self really excites me. All my life, I have been following my story, worries, fears, expectations and anxiety I I have lived all my life with this belief that me Self is doing everything. By now removing this belief I-want to flow and not try to control anything.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for LUto show me how to enjoy the flow of the life without me trying to control every moment. I am looking for clarity and just want to make my life more simpler. I want to stop searching and relax and trust life.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would like a guided conversation to point me what is real and help me see the truth. I know now I am not a thought or feeling but how to go deeper in my looking. I want to know if I’m doing the right thing or not.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I started my spiritual journey in 2013 when my husband got really ill. I wanted to know the reason why I was struggling emotionally. I started looking reading so many spiritual books, followed so many teachers, I do meditation every day. I still feel something is missing. Some days I feel good and some days I just got trapped in my thoughts again. Now I know there is no one trying to get better. I still don’t know how to experience life directly. That is where I need help.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Ronaldo]

Hello and welcome to Liberation Unleashed 😃
My name is Ron and I'll be happy to guide you through your inquiry.

For the duration of this inquiry, please let go of all books, youtube videos and the likes related to enlightenment, spiritual search and personal growth, it will only add confusion.
I will not be teaching you anything, and you don’t need to believe anything I say, quite the contrary, you have to verify everything I point to experimentally.
Curiosity, persistence and honesty are key, please post daily, and if you can't or need more time, just let me know.
Agreed?

Indeed, you are not a thought or a feeling :)
If you sit quietly and just notice everything, what is there? What can you notice?

Thanks
Ron

[Punjab1]

Hi Ron
My name is Monika. I have just seen your message .
Ron, did you e-mail me? I never received any email. I
I am agree to work with you. Please guide me . What do I need to do next. My e-mail address is [xxxx removed by admin]

Kind regards
Monika

[Ronaldo]

Hi Monika,
Yes, I sent you an email to make sure you have seen the reply on your thread. This is where we will be having our conversation. You should be getting email alerts whenever there's a new posting, which also has a link right here. Sometimes you may not be getting an email alert, so it's good to check your thread from time to time.
I will usually post once a day.

My first question to you was:
If you sit quietly and just notice everything, what is there? What can you notice?
Please make sure you list everything there is to experience.

Regards
Ron

[Punjab1]

Hi Ron

For some reason, I am not receiving any emails. Do you think I should email admin about it?

while I was sitting quietly, I noticed sounds from the road, people talking. Then I noticed my breathing. I could see things in the room.
I also noticed my thoughts coming and going. I noticed my effort to stop myself going with them. There was also a peace and quietness. I have noticed, when I look at things without me involving in them , I feel the peace.
I hope, that makes sense
Many thanks
Monika

[Ronaldo]

Hi Monika,
I just verified that you are indeed subscribed to the thread, and I re-subscribed you, hope it will help. If you still do not receive emails when I reply to your thread, simply make a habit of accessing your thread once a day to check, you would usually see a response in your morning. Ok let's move on from the administrative stuff to the inquiry!

So you've noticed:
sounds
sensations (breathing)
images
thoughts
Perhaps they were too subtle, but you should have also sense smells and tastes.
In other words, the five senses and thoughts are present and attention shifts between them, correct?

There was also a peace and quietness. I have noticed, when I look at things without me involving in them , I feel the peace.

Yes, I know what you mean, but can you point out what does it mean "without me involved??
What is that "me" that is involved?

Regards
Ron

[Punjab1]

Hi Ron

Yes, I am agree with you that five senses are present all the time and My attention shifts between them. For a example, when I smell nice food thought comes ‘ I like this food ‘. You also asked me who is this ‘me’

Me means ‘Monika’ . That is how I look at myself. With this identity I function in this world. Me get upset, happy, worry, me trying to get better, me planing everything . All day and night I live my life with this identity. When I think 🤔 for me Monika is thinking, eating, working, sorting the problems. situations are coming to Monika.

Ron I also want to mention that English is not my first language so please let me know if Something is not clear.
I didn’t receive any email today but that is fine, I will check for the message every morning on my thread.
Many thanks
Monika

[Ronaldo]

Hi Monika,
OK, thanks for the information, your English is fine, and I'll try to be sure I'm clear with my questions, although it's always challenging to express these pointers in any language.

Yes, I am agree with you that five senses are present all the time and My attention shifts between them.‘

Right, can you control the attention shifting?
When you sit and close your eyes and watch the attention - is there a controller of attention shifting between the sounds/sights/thoughts?

What about when you focus on a task "make the bed", is this something that you decide and control, and if so, how?

You also asked me who is this ‘me’
Me means ‘Monika’ . That is how I look at myself. With this identity I function in this world.

Yes, but look at the context of my question, you said:

There was also a peace and quietness. I have noticed, when I look at things without me involving in them , I feel the peace.

And I asked "who is that "me" who is involved" - that "takes the peace and quietness away", right?
Would you say that Monika are the thoughts? or something else?

Regards
Ron

[Punjab1]

Hi Ron

can you control the attention shifting?

Ron, you asked me if I can control my attention shifting and my answer is no. Whenever something happens outside, my thoughts about that situation started to come. Then fear or happiness followed. Everything happens so quickly .

Is there a controller
No there is no controller, although I do try to control my thoughts but I have noticed they even become stronger. The more I try to get rid of a thought,the more stronger they become.
I can’t stop myself thinking, listening, smelling and thoughts are just coming all the time.

What about when you focus on a task?
When I focus on task It feels like Monika is doing it. The first thought that comes is I need to do something. Then another thought comes telling me to hurry up or leave it today. Then my decision comes. Then another thought comes and evaluates my decision.

Who is that me that takes the peace away?
Whenever any situation comes in my life Monika feels it’s happening to her. Every thought sticks to Monika. I ( Monika) feel sad or happy. Monika is not a thought but I feel Monika is a character and everything is happening to her.
Kind regards
Monika

[Ronaldo]

Hi Monika,
To use the

quote function

around my questions
You simply select the text and click the “Quote" button above the text edit field
For a demo see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ


Thank you for your replies, this is helpful for me to figure out where you are.
As you have seen, your entire experience is made of the sense perceptions and thoughts.
Is there anything else?
Please don't just answer from memory, take all the time required to be absolutely sure.

Every thought sticks to Monika. I ( Monika) feel sad or happy. Monika is not a thought but I feel Monika is a character and everything is happening to her.

We are going to investigate how this works, is Monika an actual character living inside a body separated from everything around her, experiencing thoughts and sensations? Or perhaps this is just an idea, a bunch of thoughts and sensations creating a story about a character Monika?
What if it is realized that Monika never existed? That the whole story of Monika is imagined, like the character in last night's dream, or like Wonder Woman or Superman, fictional and existing only in thoughts?
What comes up when you consider this?

Regards
Ron

[Punjab1]

Hi Ron
‘Your entire experience is made of the sense perceptions and thoughts ‘ Is there anything else?

I think my past experience really influenced the way I look at things. For example, if every time a new situation comes in my life, I always predict something bad is going to happen although I do want a different outcome. My upbringing, nationality and my social status has shaped me the way I am.

what if it is realised that Monika never existed? What comes up when you consider this?
Ron , I never ever thought that Monika might not be real. All my life I have been trying to make (Monika) better more peaceful, and happier. I tried to consider that Monika May not be real but my mind went blank.Maybe my mind hasn’t got any information stored about it. Every time I asked Who is Monika?, no answer came. But I know Monika doesn’t live inside the body. But that is how I know myself.

[Ronaldo]

Hi Monkia,
I asked you to list everything that exists in your experience other than sounds, sights, smells, tastes, feeling/sensations and thought, and your answer was a description of how you view your personality, this is not at all what I asked, this is a story that you believe in. Here we are only interested in what is actual, what is real.
You correctly said you are not the thoughts, but your statements indicate that you are very much identified with every thought that passes, and I think you realize that.
I am not saying this in any sort of negative way, I am not judging you, I am simply trying to clarify to you that this is your major obstacle in this inquiry right now.

Thoughts are real, but their content - the story or image etc are not.
Why do I say that thoughts content are not real experiences?
Can you drink the thought "water"?
Can you actually smell the thought "milk" or taste "lemon"?
Is the memory of your last meal here?

The most important thing in this whole investigation is to be crystal clear what is real, and what is imaginary, fiction.
Please take a glass with cold water, or you favorite beverage, and place it on the table.
1) Take a very slow sip of cold water/beverage, give it your full attention, really give it time and notice how it feels in your mouth, the smell (if any), the coldness, swallow it and feel it go down your throat.

2) now don't drink, but take a pretend sip of cold water, close your eyes and imagine that you're drinking a sip.

Are the two the same? Are they even remotely close??

Can the difference be attributed to good/poor memory recall?

Would you be satisfied with that imagined drinking?

What can you notice from this simple exercise?

Is the difference between an actual experience and thought clear?


Hope your weekend is enjoyable,
Ron

[Punjab1]

Good Afternoon Ron
First of all just want to say thank you for correcting me. Please do tell me whenever I am going away from truth. No one ever corrected me so if you remind me I will be grateful for that.
Ron, I also want to say thank you for sorting out my email problem. I did receive your last email.
And now about your questions:
I did do the experiment you asked me to do
Are the two same ? Or remotely close?
Both of the experiences were not the same. Both of them wasn’t even close.
Can the difference be attributed to good/poor memory recall?
Both times, the experience I had was different. The first time I had the real drink and second time I pretended to have one. I enjoyed the real drink, I was able to feel the drink in my mouth, how refreshing and the coolness of it. In addition I was able to feel the drink going down my throat.
Would you be satisfied with the imagined drink?
No, to satisfy my thirst I need really have a drink.
What can you notice from this simple experience?
I noticed that whatever thoughts are coming to me, with the story they are telling me is not true. They just come and go. I can just see them and let them go rather than believe in the story.
Is the difference between an actual experience and thought clear?
Yes Ron, with that simple experiment I have noticed that there is big difference between real and imaginary. Eating the food or pretend eating are both different. Pretend eating won’t fulfil my hunger.
Ron, I’d like to ask you that now I am not doing any spiritual work like reading or watching you tube videos or doing meditation, is there anything else you are able to suggest instead?
Rather than observing my thoughts how do I experience things directly? I don’t know if these are all thoughts and I should be asking you or not.
Please point me in the right direction.
Many thanks
Monika

[Ronaldo]

Hi Monika :)

Please take a look again at using the quote function - it will make it easier to read (link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ). If you're having problems with this, it's fine, but please separate each answer by 2 empty lines - that should help - thank you.

You did a fantastic job looking! The difference between looking and thinking is that you notice thoughts arise and fall, but don't go into the stories, rather stick to what is here and real. Not all thoughts are about sense perceptions, right? In fact most thoughts are about other thoughts... and concepts like "good" or "elegant", "holiday" etc. So the content of the thought may point to something real, but is never real.

Armed with your latest realization, let's try this again, please sit somewhere quietly and watch very carefully. What is there?

Sounds (from around you, from your body)
Sights (even if your eyes are closed)
sensations in the hands, arms, feet, head etc., weight of your body, maybe an itch..
smells (may be faint)
tastes (may be faint)
thoughts - these appear as words, images, sounds (a tune, a voice) and any of the senses. More often than not, thoughts appear in streams that tell stories about the past and future, and usually about "me" - what I should and shouldn't have done, how I was brought up, my hopes and fears etc. We notice but don't go into these stories.


So in your direct experience, can you find anything else? Anything at all that is missing from the above list?

Ron, I’d like to ask you that now I am not doing any spiritual work like reading or watching you tube videos or doing meditation, is there anything else you are able to suggest instead?
Rather than observing my thoughts how do I experience things directly? I don’t know if these are all thoughts and I should be asking you or not.

Yes, the problem with spiritual work is that a book or a video does not know your stage on the path, the pointers change all the time, depending on your perspective and realizations. It will add a lot of confusion as I said, so best to refrain for now.

You are free to meditate, but the best form of meditation is to do mini-meditations all day long, rather or in addition to a long sitting. How? Simple, you have many habits don't you? Brushing the teeth, house chores, dressing up etc. So you start forming new habits, for example if you do the dishes, or wash the face, rather than being somewhere in fantasy world (in thoughts) you do the same thing you did with the water exercise - you notice everything! Water on your hands or face - you may be amazed how everything becomes alive.

Be patient, this is a walk, not a sprint, and we'll notice everything and realization will come when it does. I need to make sure you experience every step of this path before we move on. I will guide you accordingly and it will all come together.

Best regards
Ron

[Punjab1]

So in your direct experience, can you find anything else? Anything at all that is missing from the above list?

Thanks for your quick reply Ron
I did sit quietly and noticed my breathing, clock ticking, sounds, seen stuff in the room, I was aware of taste and smell perceptions. I was also aware of my thoughts.Above all that I also noticed quietness.I am not sure if quietness is the right word for that or not.But that was there all the way and I can still experience that now.It is still here. But I don’t know what I’m supposed to be looking for. Please guide me.

I also tried to use a quote today. Thanks for teaching me.
Many thanks
Monika